Author Topic: two scientific questions  (Read 2647 times)

queenbee

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two scientific questions
« on: June 30, 2012, 21:11:13 »
No 1 How does the spray treatments work on potato blight?

No 2 We have had a really good thunder storm today, When I was small my father used to say that the
lightening set the nitrogen in the soil and this was called the nitrogen cycle, Is there any truth in this?
Hi I'm from Heywood, Lancashire

pigeonseed

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Re: two scientific questions
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2012, 21:20:32 »
1 - Sorry I have no idea.

2 - yes lightening does fix nitrogen, though I'd have thought that was a bit hit and miss as a gardening technique  ;)

Linnea

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Re: two scientific questions
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2012, 23:17:05 »
I believe the spray treatments for blight are preventative rather than curative. I think they create a barrier where the fungal spores can't attach themselves to a plant cell.

but I'm happy to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable  :)

chriscross1966

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Re: two scientific questions
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2012, 00:05:05 »
Copper salts are generally poisonous to most fungi, a blight spore hatching onto a surface covered in copper sulphate (active ingredient in Bordeaux mixture) will be poisoned by it. Copper's pretty unpleasant and its salts are generally very bitter.... overuse of copper-saltt fungicides can drive off worms for that reason.

THe other anti-blight sprays worked in much the same way though were frequently a bit less broad-spectrum than copper..... Some of them were also rainproof....

Yes it does, it's the major source of nitrogen in some parts, animal urine being the other. DOn't listen to anyone telling you that growing beans will fix nitrogen into the soil, it all ends up in the beans.... so if you grow a leguminous crop as a green manure, cut it down after it flowerss at the latest...

goodlife

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Re: two scientific questions
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2012, 00:15:18 »
Code: [Select]
When I was small my father used to say that the
lightening set the nitrogen in the soil and this was called the nitrogen cycle, Is there any truth in this?

Well..lightning release atmospheric nitrogen which is then washed down by the rain and then being available for the plants...you can read it from here http://www.the-compost-gardener.com/nitrogen-cycle.html#axzz1zJyh1syF

And as for the fungicides..like treatments for the blight..Contact fungicides
inhibit spore germination but do not work if a plant is already infected. This type of
activity is referred to as protectant. Examples of contact fungicides with protectant
activity are chlorothalonil, mancozeb, and copper. more to read from here.. http://www.bayercropscience.com/bayer/cropscience/cscms.nsf/id/e45ea9097bffe20dc125762700306d9b
















« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 00:20:30 by goodlife »

Robert_Brenchley

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Re: two scientific questions
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2012, 02:24:56 »
COpper is nasty in quantity. Whe I was a kid I dealt with the bindweed all over the garden by nicking some copper sulphate from the chemistry lab at school and painting it on the leaves repeatedly till it all died. It never came back

Vinlander

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Re: two scientific questions
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2012, 01:18:31 »
COpper is nasty in quantity. Whe I was a kid I dealt with the bindweed all over the garden by nicking some copper sulphate from the chemistry lab at school and painting it on the leaves repeatedly till it all died. It never came back

Copper is not systemic in plants - that's why it can't kill active blight - it's more likely that the extremely acid nature of the sulphate killed the leaves. The kids in my classes who spillled it on their books and clothes found that holes appeared after it dried and became more concentrated and lower pH until it destroyed the fibres.

There is no copper sulphate as such in bordeaux mix solution (or burgundy - the harsher version).

The made-up solution contains two new near-neutral compounds - amphoteric colloidal copper hydroxide and calcium sulphate ie. gypsum (via a double-decomposition reaction). 

Copper is extremely bitter but this is a good thing because you can't be voluntarily poisoned by mouth unless you are already insensible or you're mad enough to put it in a gel capsule.

Anyone who wants to refer to copper as a poison should first read:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_in_health.
and:
http://chemse.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/1/85.ful

Basically the average 50kg person with a normal metabolism could eat 5mg a day every day with no ill effects - but you would still definitely taste that unless it was dissolved in more than 1.5 litres of water. If it was spread out on the skin of even 20 or 30 tomatoes it would make you retch.

Do I really have to point out that making soup from recently sprayed but unwashed tomatoes is a bad idea?

It is also good that copper doesn't penetrate the plant (so it can only act as a preventative) - it doesn't get to the tubers of potato and it can be polished off a tomato by rubbing gently with a cloth (or clothing).

If your anti-blight wonder chemical can stop blight after it has invaded the plant, then that means you are eating that wonder chemical in your meal. QED.

All things considered copper is pretty much exactly what you'd want as an almost foolproof barrier - but of course this isn't what 'big pharma' wants you to hear.

Copper isn't 100% effective in a bad year - but nothing is 100% effective in a bad year... use copper and hedge several bets at once - accept the occasional losses.

You can always grow oca instead of maincrop potatoes, and you can do a lot for tomatoes with well-ventilated covers plus copper.

Unfortunately there is no obvious single substitute for tomatoes - but between them ground cherry: P.pruinosus and lychee tomato: S.sisymbriifolium cover most of the bases.

Cheers.
With a microholding you always get too much or bugger-all. (I'm fed up calling it an allotment garden - it just encourages the tidy-police).

The simple/complex split is more & more important: Simple fertilisers Poor, complex ones Good. Simple (old) poisons predictable, others (new) the opposite.

Gordonmull

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Re: two scientific questions
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2012, 02:03:42 »
One thing you've missed out Vinlander - Bordeaux is classified as a persistant and extremely toxic aquatic pollutant and your runoff has to go somewhere, not to mention pesticide drift.

I wonder if that's why it's being pulled?

Actually maybe this is why - http://www.pam.ealing.gov.uk/PlanNet/documentstore/DC1117676-97-1_AF_A.PDF . Second table.

CLEA Soil Guidline Value (SGV) for copper, for garden or allotment use, of 250mg/kg due to risk of phytotoxicity. This is the level that a soil is legally considered contaminated by copper. Copper is a micronutrient as most of us know and can be taken up by the roots. 

I suspect Bordeux would be relatively persistant in soil due to it's low solubility and definitely something to think about when spraying near a clay soil because, what does dissolve, the clay will mostly adsorb. 

Actually, an MSDS for Bordeaux mixture: http://www.manica.com/UserFiles/File/Technical_Bordeaux_Mixture_Rev.4_Dic._2003_MSDS122.04.pdf

Section 12: Ecotoxicity states that copper added to soil is extremely immobile due to adsorbtion by organic matter. We have plenty of that in our gardens as a matter of course. OK immobility means less availablity for uptake by plants but it's still there. Building up, creating a problem for future generations.

The more I'm reading into this stuff, the less I'm liking it.

Friday night - drinking wine and reading about the impacts copper can have on the garden. What have you lot done to me!?  ;D

telboy

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Re: two scientific questions
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2012, 17:43:16 »
Red wine - now ya talking!!!!
Eskimo Nel was a great Inuit.

Gordonmull

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Re: two scientific questions
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2012, 18:33:11 »
Nah strawberry, maybe not as good as a nice merlot but d**n tasty all the same. Made by my own fair hand, too, unfortunately not from strawberries grown by my own fair hand. They never made the fermenter.  ::)

"Cheat" apple wine from Lidl apple juice tonight. The real stuff from forage is waiting for October. The elegance of drinking last year's apples while prepping this year's appeals to me! Sad, I know.

pumkinlover

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Re: two scientific questions
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2012, 19:15:07 »
Quote
The elegance of drinking last year's apples while prepping this year's appeals to me! Sad, I know.

You and me then Gordonmull!

 

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