Topic: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques

[plainleaf]

there are many   pesticides, fungicides,and herbicides are natural and organic.

back to the subject there is the cucumber straightener.
though Japanese seem to have changes basic shape and size to make square watermelons  
the  tomato cage which was invented before
1865 which works better then poles, strings and many other supports.
 

[galina]

Who, apart from you PL, says these methods are antiquated and non-beneficial???
And how do you prove such a statement, when you don't garden, and never have gardened, in the UK?

[Kea]

Just put my earlies to chit...why? Because I don't have anywhere cool to store them, if I don't buy them now there will be none left; and left in the coolest place i have, my garage, I'll just get lots of etiolated stolons which I'll damage when I plant them.

[Digeroo]

I know another reason.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.

I have not found an organic fungicide that deals with tomato blight.  

[growmore]

Here's why I chit/sprout  my potatoes..
I chit my maincrop potatoes so that I can rub off all but 4 chits/shoots on the crown end of the potato ( blunt end that is fattest) .I then sow my potato this way up .
There's a couple of reasons for this .
As we like bakers I find I get far bigger potatoes which can be cut for boiling if required.
Secondly, The plants tend to grow straight up from these shoots making it easier to walk between them to earth up.
I still rub some chit's /sprouts off my earlies but not as many . I don't want to grow marble sized potatoes.
So how is chitting  potatoes non beneficial to me.

cheers, Jim
 

[ru2010]

Why should I not firm the soil round my brassicas? I've always been told that I should and, by doing so, it ensures solid hearts on my cabbages and prevents my sprouts from "blowing".

So, Plainleaf, I'm new to gardening - what's the theory behind not firming the soil and how does it relate to my reasons for doing so?

[saddad]

Hope you don't mind me butting in...
on my heavy clay soil if I firm in too much the roots can't get out of the planting hole... it settles down firm on it's own before the Winter...  :-\

[plainleaf]

Hope you don't mind me butting in..
on my heavy clay soil if I firm in too much the roots can't get out of the planting hole... it settles down firm on it's own before the Winter...  :-\

no problem with you answering saddad an you answer is spot on.
there other issue with firming soil also but you answer is the big one.
 

Why should I not firm the soil round my brassicas? I've always been told that I should and, by doing so, it ensures solid hearts on my cabbages and prevents my sprouts from "blowing".

So, Plainleaf, I'm new to gardening - what's the theory behind not firming the soil and how does it relate to my reasons for doing so?

the problem is the theory is wrong.

it is just like cut off end ham story like gram did.  but reason was not that it cooked better with end cut off but gram had small roaster that a ham would not fit with end  still on. 

[davyw1]

Firming the soil or not firming come down to nothing more than knowing what the condition of your soil is.

The reason for firming down is to stop the wind from rocking the the plant. With cabbages it is not to bad their root system can take it. Sprouts grow tall and can be blown over if not staked up and or firmed into soil. (i plant mine into a 6" trench and back fill and firm the soil down as it grows) Cauliflowers have a tender root system and can not tolerate the movement of their roots and will consequently die. I have to plant them so the growing tip is just above ground (maximum root depth) and firm the soil with my foot, i do this and i get good results.

If Saddad was to it with his soil then he would probably get a poor root system consequently a bad result.

We all learn by our mistakes and taking bad advice so listen to people who have learned how to grow good veg in the type of soil that you have.

Different techniques for different types of soil

[plainleaf]

davey to back those statements are old wives tales for most part.  if wind problem to just put in wind break or wind baffle.

[ru2010]

So, really, you need loose soil for brassicas, like all plants, for the establishment of a good root system but it is common practice to firm the soil at the base of the plant (above the root system) to merely prevent the plant from being moved around by the wind.

Is this right?

So, if I can protect the plants from the wind, without firming the soil, all will be well with the world?

The reason I'm asking is because I'm trying a four year rotation which consists of double digging and heavily mucking, in year one, for potatoes; year 2, legumes; year 3, brassicas; year 4, roots.

I'm hoping to keep mucking and serious digging to once every four years and to get by with plenty of comfrey and some blood, fish and bone, in the intervening three. What concerned me, though, was firming and compacting the soil for the brassicas only to follow them with roots - which surely won't appreciate that treatment of the soil! I don't want to have to dig for the roots and then double dig, straight after, for the potatoes again.

So, If I can manage to not firm for the brassicas I will be in a better position for the roots.

[Digeroo]

I am interested Plainleaf in what type of soil you have.  

My soil is so light and well drained that without good firming in of brassica they would simply jump out of the soil as soon as North West Wind gets going.  Perhaps you do not get the joys of the north west wind either.  I have done well this year only four PSB have blown over.  I have put several compost bins, water butts and left the sweet corn stalks to protect them.

Some 80% of sprouts on site had very loose buttons.   I have very idiocyncratic soil.  We are on a reclaimed gravel working so not two lorries of back fill came from the same place.  It is reputed to be from the building of the London Bristol motorway (freeway to you).

In my garden about a mile away I have never grown a good brassica over the whole of 26 years.  Yet my previous garden about 1/2 mile away where I had good potting clay they grew like weeds.  While on my lottie I have some lovely brassicas.

Far from using non beneficial techniques I have had to work by trial and error and adapt to my growing conditions.  

[plainleaf]

Digeroo my soil is in raised beds and is a mix of compost, manure and other loose fine materials.  we had  winds  several storms ranging 48 kph  - 88 kph.


ru2010 you will want cover your  brassicas anyway to protect them from cabbage white butterflies, if you cover them correctly you kill two issues with one solution.

[Digeroo]

We oddly still use mph for wind speed.   Those people who live in Scotland may not be very impressed by wind speeds of 88 kph.

Manure?   I am glad you are not suffering nasties from Dow Corp.  After three years I am finally hoping to be free from the results.

I am very interested in what variety of sprouts will cope with your light soil.  I favour Amaroso but it is now unavailable in the UK. 

[Robert_Brenchley]

It's a question of what suits your conditions. I wouldn't damage my soil by stampingit down, but there are so many hedges and trees around my plot that wind rock is the least of my worries. I remember from watching 'The Victorian Kitchen Garden' that seed beds needed to be trodden down hard. I don't think many of us do that these days, but we do maintain other traditions from the same era, which may make no more sense. Unless you have a soil like Saddad's, there's no harm in firming them in, and it may help them stand upright. Mine flop all over the place, but I think they grow just as well if they're horizontal.

[djbrenton]

I think there's another factor too. The older you get, the more contradictory 'proofs' you see. If we followed every proof we'd be reversing course all the time. Is a glass of red wine a day good or bad for you? It seems to depend on the study. Let's face it, doing something that may not be strictly necessary is better than not doing something that is. I seriously doubt the OP gets better results on his ground with his methods than many here do with theirs.

[plainleaf]

well the red wine was never good for you but the guy who did study falsified the data to make it seem that way so nothing was different but perceptions was different. it is call belief reinforcement.  well as brassica results variety is part of my results difference.

[green lily]

I stake my tall brassicas -- and canes aren't good enough [how do I know?] . So yes I firm/tramp with my size 6 wellies [uk size] and whack in hefty stakes and tie the psb and sprouts up with old tights......Then I nurse my sore wrists and look smug while the gales roar..... ;D ;D
PS. I also mesh the broccoli against out feathered friends.... ::)

[Ninnyscrops.]

I don't stake my sprouts but sink them deep as youngsters, just a welly tread (size 7) around them, possibly a 4 inch compaction on my clay, netted at about 4 feet and leave them to it. Cut them down in early January for the freezer after the Crimble picking  ;). When I went back to clear the roots they had travelled about a foot outside my welly stomp.

Ninnys

[Jeannine]

Regarding pruning tomatoes, in the UK it is fairly standard to prune an indeterminate and to not prune a determinate in the USA the opposite is true.

Many UK gardeners grew in greenhouses and grew in pots, Many USA gardeners plant in the ground and if pots are used they are often very  much bigger,15 gallon is quite common, some even grow their tomatoes without staking or cages and let them run along the ground like we used to do with cukes.

The variations in US weather gives many more options to tomato growers over there, here in BC we are pretty much in the same boat as the UK.

I didn't prune last year and my harvest was down on varieties I had grown for years and in three countries.

This year I will prune, without doing so I would not have room for all I want to grow, different strokes for different folks, or rather if it works for you then go for it..if you don't need to then don't. I think we have to  be open to all ideas and I think the UK has pretty much got it worked out right..for the UK as we also have here in BC..

XX Jeannine