Topic: Jock Independance (again)

[Obelixx]

Mr Smith - There's a great deal wrong with the EU and the way its run and the levels of incompetence especially amongst EMPs but on the whole, we're better off with it and in it than without it.  Better to solve disputes round a table than with guns and better to strive together to earn economic and social security for citizens especially in the face of competition from developing countries.  I just feel the UK, by sitting on the edge, has missed out on great opportunities to shape it to be more efficient.

On a purely practical and personal note, it's great being able to drive freely from one country to another, it's great needing only one purse - except for trips to the UK and it's great being able to compare prices of goods on-line and get the best deal and again, except for the UK, it's great being able t take our dog on holiday with no fuss.

[lincsyokel2]

It is also ludicrous to think that Brussels is a bogey man that will take over everything. 

The avowed, open, declared aim, voice by many of the EU leaders, is a unified European Superstate, A United States of Europe, which involves the destruction of national identity, and the destruction of national parlaiments and individual nations.   If you like i can muster you up 25+ links showing  where the poltical leaders of the EU have openly stated this in the last 15 years. There would be no more 'england' or 'scotland' or 'germany' or 'france'. We would become 'Economic Regions of the EU superstate -0 in fact, those regions have already been laid out, england is Economic Regions 16 and 17, divided down the middle horzontally. This is not fantasy, or made up, this is a printed declared aim of the EU, the Lisbon Treaty, if you care to wade through it, lays down the legal ground for this. The Lisbon Treaty gave the EU the power to

-dissolve and ban national parliments
-forbid any political party that doesnt support the EU, or is only a national party.
-make illegal any oppostion to the EU
-enforce compulsory joining of the single currency.
and many other entirely undemocratic and dangerous powers

It lays down the right of the EU to have an EU army, and an EU police force, which have superior powers over national police forces. It Gives the Eu the right to build and maintian an army, controlled from Brussels. Instead of owning and running our own country, we will be a minority of 65 million in a superstate of 500 million, and our national interests will come very low down on the list. So perosanlly, i prefer to be in my own country, with our own elected representatives, making choices that put us and our national interests first.  Why does the EU need an army, and a police force?

The problem is people like you are lambs to the slaughter, wide eyed innocents totally oblivious to the truth about the true intentions and aims of the EU.  And thats exactly how they  intended it to be, because they are devious and cunning, and know softly softly catchee monkee.

As Mulder said, the truth is out there. You just have to stop believing the horse poo fed to you by the europhiles who have taken over our political system (peopel like Clegg, Mandelson, Balls, and Harman ), and start doing your own research on the subject. You''ll soon discover the horrific truth about the EU's intentions.

[lincsyokel2]

Mr Smith - There's a great deal wrong with the EU and the way its run and the levels of incompetence especially amongst EMPs but on the whole, we're better off with it and in it than without it.  Better to solve disputes round a table than with guns and better to strive together to earn economic and social security for citizens especially in the face of competition from developing countries.  I just feel the UK, by sitting on the edge, has missed out on great opportunities to shape it to be more efficient.

On a purely practical and personal note, it's great being able to drive freely from one country to another, it's great needing only one purse - except for trips to the UK and it's great being able to compare prices of goods on-line and get the best deal and again, except for the UK, it's great being able t take our dog on holiday with no fuss.

Throughout the EU there is evidence that money has been wasted or even stolen on an industrial scale, literally in skipfuls.. In Southern Italy, money has gone to Mafia-controlled construction companies and bogus energy projects. Across the EU expensive projects lie unused and unfit for purpose, despite receiving funding of millions of Euros. Farmers are being paid for crops that were never grown,  sheep being double counted to get extra grants.

The European Court of Auditors challenged the EU to get a grip on its spending after yet again finding ‘material errors’ in last year’s £88billion budget. Its president, Vitor Manuel da Silva Caldeira, said about 5 per cent of the budget – some £4billion – was spent wrongly or simply missing and unaccounted for. Multiply that by 16 years, and the ndouble to reveal somthing like the true nature of corruption and fraud in the EU, yo uare looking at probably 100 billion euroes swindled or embezzled, and some of that is out taxes, which would have been better kept by us and spent on us.

The Eu is rotten and corrupt to the core, and we have no comeback on it, the EU parliment is a toothless rubber stamping exercise for show purposes, just like the old Soviet Duma on which it is modelled was. The true power in the EU lies in its unelected , unaccountable Commissionaires and President, all safely protected by EU law from any responsibilty or democratic accountability..

[grawrc]

 

Instead of owning and running our own country, we will be a minority of 65 million in a superstate of 500 million, and our national interests will come very low down on the list. So perosanlly, i prefer to be in my own country, with our own elected representatives, making choices that put us and our national interests first.   

Oh you are a tease Lincsy! All that bluster about why Scottish independence is bad, when clearly you understood why it should happen all the time!!  ;D ;D :P

BY THE WAY THIS IS A JOKE, OK?

[lincsyokel2]

Instead of owning and running our own country, we will be a minority of 65 million in a superstate of 500 million, and our national interests will come very low down on the list. So perosanlly, i prefer to be in my own country, with our own elected representatives, making choices that put us and our national interests first.  

Oh you are a tease Lincsy! All that bluster about why Scottish independence is bad, when clearly you understood why it should happen all the time!!  ;D ;D :P

BY THE WAY THIS IS A JOKE, OK?

What part of my post dont you understand................?

Lets resort to cartoons..........heres Europe according to the Germans

http://alphadesigner.com/img/artwork-mapping-stereotypes-03.jpg



©2011 alphadesigner. All rights reserved, including the obvious ones.

[OllieC]

There is an inconsistency of logic.

UK must not be ruled by Europe - i.e. it is wrong for a larger neighbour to control a smaller neighbour.
Scotland must not make decisions for itself - i.e. it is right for a larger neighbour to control a smaller neighbour.

[betula]

It is a matter for the Scots.

Can't see what difference it makes to us the other side of the border.

I am no expert but I think they will struggle but it is there decision.

[carbonel11]

As Betula says surely it's up to the Scots what they do ?

[lincsyokel2]

There is an inconsistency of logic.

UK must not be ruled by Europe - i.e. it is wrong for a larger neighbour to control a smaller neighbour.
Scotland must not make decisions for itself - i.e. it is right for a larger neighbour to control a smaller neighbour.

The scots are entirely free to choose, but independance is not what they think its going to be, not by a long chalk,  Salmond and the Europhiles are doing a first class brainwashing job on them, and by the time the scots find out they been given a good Blairesque lying to, itll be too late.  If you are going to make a decision like that, you need to do it with ALL the facts.

Apart from that, this is the united kingdom, and consists of not onbly Scotland , but England and Wales, as equal partners, dont you think its undemocratic we dont get to vote as well?  After all, scots mp's vote in our parliment, on affiars nothing to do with scotland, why does not a recipical arrengement exist for the english and welsh in the scots assembly. This is the trouble with the scots, everything is one sided. OFC we all know why. if you asked the english if they wanted the scots i nthe Union,  the answer would be no. Exactly the same result if you asked the english if they wanted to be in the EU.  English politcians deny the democratic right of the english to decide there own fates, wheras the scoits get to choose. Thats why we have be plunged so deep into the EU without the english ever being asked to give a democratic mandate for it. The EU, like Scots independance, is the wet dream of a few hundred europhiles in ket positions of power. No one asked the English if they wanted any of it.

[OllieC]

This thread has got a bit silly & I have nothing else to add. Shame, could've been an interesting chat.

[carbonel11]

Just a quick reminder that the inhabitants of Northern Ireland are citizens of the uk as well.
I do think it would be interesting for the English to be able to vote to leave the Union themselves but I wonder if the North and the West Country would want to go with the rest of " England " ?

[Mr Smith]

Personally I've never wanted a Jock side in the Premiership which in the past they have tried to do, this will just put the top hat on it,  Yippppeeee. You are right about the West Country especially that lot in Cornwall, on holiday the other year down there a local was moaning in this pub in Truro that he could not sit in HIS favorite seat because of the 'Bloody English' that are on holiday down there, I said to him only for mugs like me driving all this way for ten days in the peeing rain your bloody pub would be shut, :)

[lincsyokel2]

This thread has got a bit silly & I have nothing else to add. Shame, could've been an interesting chat.

The only problem is people who try and debate and then cant provide any supporting evidence to back up there point of view. That IS the art of debate. Just posting random thoughts with no facts to prop them up isnt debate, its little more than a pissing competition at the back of the pub. Ive engaged in debate on forums all across the internet, some of what passes for debate here wouldnt last the poster  five minutes on some Politics boards.  I was arguing with pro Bush americans on the Iraq war first time round, those debates got extremely savage. Ive also kept my end of the argument up with some of the most battle hardened fanatics on the net on vegetarian, lesbian, antihunting and socialist forums. even Mumsnet can get pretty nasty, all those bored middle class ex finishing school mums with nowt else to do  during the day. Debating on the internet is a skill you have to learn.

[ACE]

Seeing as we are more a lively discussion group and allotment forum, not a boring debating society, we have nothing to worry about. I for one do not want to go trawling the internet just to prove a point on a million subjects. I have better things to do. They use a saying around these parts  'jack of all trades, master of none'. Still whatever floats your boat.

[Melbourne12]

This thread has got a bit silly & I have nothing else to add. Shame, could've been an interesting chat.

The only problem is people who try and debate and then cant provide any supporting evidence to back up there point of view. That IS the art of debate. Just posting random thoughts with no facts to prop them up isnt debate, its little more than a pissing competition at the back of the pub. ...

Then perhaps you'd like to provide references to the farrago of nonsense that you posted about the Lisbon Treaty.  I doubt that a third of the claims that you made were factually accurate.  If it's easier, you may prefer to give references to page number, then paragraph rather than Article/Para/Sub, especially as there are also Protocols involved.

Just as a reminder, you claimed:

The Lisbon Treaty gave the EU the power to

-dissolve and ban national parliments
-forbid any political party that doesnt support the EU, or is only a national party.
-make illegal any oppostion to the EU
-enforce compulsory joining of the single currency.
and many other entirely undemocratic and dangerous powers

It lays down the right of the EU to have an EU army, and an EU police force, which have superior powers over national police forces. It Gives the Eu the right to build and maintian an army, controlled from Brussels.

Don't forget, not just an army and a police force, but with superior powers!

... even Mumsnet can get pretty nasty, ....

I'll bet.

[OllieC]

Seeing as we are more a lively discussion group and allotment forum, not a boring debating society

He's right. Many of us on here (including me) have learnt, over time, that it's a much nicer atmosphere when we keep our stronger views to ourselves, and when we express them we do so with courtesy & respect. So that's what we do. I'm not interested in changing ACE's mind on global warming, and he couldn't give a monkeys what I think about um, say, the middle east peace process (I made that up, he really might care - we've never discussed it). There are plenty of debating societies out there (which few of us are members of, for good reason), why not try asking them how their sowing & planting plans are coming along this year?!

[BarriedaleNick]

This is not a political debating society - this is a gardening discussion forum.  Posters having been warned before about constant political hyjacking of threads.  This, specifically, is a general "chit chat" board ie one for casual conversation; small talk or even gossip - a lot of posts here do not reflect that.  

[Mr Smith]

Debating on some forum is not exactly what I would call debating, surely face to face in a smoke filled room in a gentlemans club, I'll stop there because I'm no gentleman, ;D

[dtw]

The clock changing thing is down to the 'europeans' wanting us to be on the same timezone as them.
Never surrender to Berlin time!!!

[tonybloke]

The clock changing thing is down to the 'europeans' wanting us to be on the same timezone as them.
Never surrender to Berlin time!!!

I never get the hang of the clock changing thing. to me, mid-day is when the sun is at it's highest.
we get sunrise here almost 7 minutes before greenwich, btw