Topic: extremely stony soil

[gwynnethmary]

Hi everyone-am in Sweden at the moment visiting our son and his wife.  They've just moved into their own property, and we're helping them to create a vegetable plot in their large garden.  the problem is STONES, and I mean literally hundreds of them, fom every size up to huge boulders.  The soil is silty with sand in it.  I have been digging down as deep as I can (removing top soil first) to break up the subsoil, and am coming across large boulders with solid sandtone round them, whicg breaks apart OK.  My question is, should I be removing these huge things, or are they actually helping with drainage?

[goodlife]

I would not remove any stones that are bellow top few inches of the soil..they are part of the structure of the soil and you may cause drainage problems later on.
If the soil is that 'lumpy'..raised beds would be just ideal for that situation. Then they  don't need to go through the sorting the stones out....and being in Sweden it may give them earlier start for sowing in spring as raised beds would warm up that little bit better.. ;)
Perharps some of the boulders could be used as edging for those beds..keeping up with the 'look'..if you decide to start 'sieving' to get rid some of the stones..those removed would be ideal to use in paths between the beds..nothing waisted.. ;)
Oh..and have a good time while you are there..hopefully there is good bilberry season..bilberry tart with cold glass of milk...YUM!  ;D

[gwynnethmary]

wish i'd asked before we dug bed 1.  We have a mountain of stones to use in paths etc. and my son has made a beautiful sieve which we've put to good use today in the lovey sunshine.  Your words of wisdom are now being applied which will save a huge amount of work, so thank you!

[goodlife]

Over time lot of the smaller stones will work their way up on surface..those can be picked and chucked on paths while weeding so if you just remove the most obvious stones from the root zone area. Of course it is nice if you have energy to sieve it all for now..but it is not absolutely necessary. Perharps the bed that you've done first thoroughly would be good one for next years root crops..and year after that more thorough job done for the next bed for carrots..etc. eventually they would go through the whole lot but its not as back breaking.
As the soil is so free draining, they will need to get hold of as much as possible organic matter..maybe even treat couple of beds like 'compost' heaps..and next year potatoes would love that. They could pile up grass clippings, fallen leaves, kitchen waste (best to bury bit deeper), manure, crumpled paper etc. Once the beds are full weighing the top down to stop wind to blowing it away and leaving until spring..then sprinkle of general fertilizer and taties in.. ;) Other bed could be topped up with bit of compost and that would do for any other veg nicely.
You could get your son to join A4all..if he needs any more ideas.. ;)

[Digeroo]

I have a lot of stones in my soil though no actual boulders.  One part of my plot was totally gravel, which I mixed the top spade depth with manure and grew sweet corn, courgettes and beans on it. 

Elsewhere I dug some foot square holes and filled with compost or manure and grow like in a tub.  After a while you could not see that the plant were in blocks.   

For carrots I pile up the soil to increase the depth or if they are long ones did out a narrow trench and fill with seived soil.  I find it only needs to be a couple of inches wide.   Someone else on our site is growing parsnips and carrots in plastic drain piles set into the soil filled with compost.   

I have since then put in lots of manure and compost to improve the top soil.

In my garden there is pure gravel about a spade down I never double dig.  I use raised beds with logs each side to increase the depth of the soil for beans.  Everything else has to put up it.  Carrots after a time tend to come out of the soil at the top so I earth them up to prevent them going green or getting root fly.

I also have started putting compost on top in autumn and then simply planting through it in the spring 

A few stones work their way up to the surface but in general I see fewer stones year on year. 

[gwynnethmary]

Thanks Goodlife and Digeroo for your input.  I think we will be very happy to just dig the last two beds without all the sieving, although it's making my waistline shrink! They have some winter tare seeds which they thought would be a good idea to put some bulk into the soil and stop it blowing away (the sieved bed is a bit like flour!) What do you think?

[Digeroo]

I personally like to have as much soil as possible covered for the winter.  Stoney soil seems to allow the nutrients to leech out so I believe that growing things after the first frost locks the last nutrients into the plants which hopefully they will release again the next year.

Sorry no experience what so ever of growing in Sweden, so no idea of which plants can survive their winters. 

 I now have a supply of wheat, mustard, broadbeans,cress and phacelia to do the job as well as lots of compost getting ready to spread out.  Some people here also use black plastic sheeting to cover and prevent the leeching it also warms up the soil quicker in spring.     But I tend to use things I can grow or acquire.

I do not see the point in sieving.  Apart from carrots everything else seems to cope fine.  Even carrots seem to put up with more stones than I expected, though few of them would win any prizes for straightness.    If you have already sieved a bed then I would work in some fine compost,  cover it with biomatter over the winter, remove that in the spring and sow carrots in it.   

I would also question the need for lots of digging.    I am trying to build up the soil above the stones.  Digging just seems to disturb them.  My worst gravel is now growing raspberries, blackcurrants and gooseberries.  They are well fertilized and thoroughly mulched with a good six inches of biomatter (mostly leaves, grass clippings and straw) but looking very bonny. 

I take my inspiration from the gardeners of Dungeness where there are only pebbles some quite large and yet some people have gorgeous gardens with no natural topsoil at all.  Other people have lovely gardens on roof tops, and concrete balconies.

Where there is a will....  I am sure you will succeed.  Do keep us all posted on how you are getting on.

[gwynnethmary]

I'm thinking that the sieved bed might be good for asparagus, as it's also weed free now.  I think I panicked a bit when I saw all of the stones-  our home town is on the north- east coast and we have clay soil with just the normal amount of stones. iit's very different here.  All we can do is help as much as we can in the next two or three weeks, and hopefully when we visit again next year will be eating the fruits of our labours.

[Digeroo]

I think that growing on clay and growing on stones are different challenges.  I think that you need to look around the neighbourhood and see who seems to be winning and ask their advice. 

[lincsyokel2]

I think that growing on clay and growing on stones are different challenges.  I think that you need to look around the neighbourhood and see who seems to be winning and ask their advice. 

I have extremely stony soil,  we are on a limestone escarpment 180 feet above sea level know as Waddington Cliff and the soil is between three to eighteen feet deep, and small chunks of limestone make there way to the surface constantly.

PITB to hand dig, a rotovator is a must. And you never have to lime the brassica bed.

[gwynnethmary]

Today an elderly man stopped as I was yet again on my hands and knees, this time trying to sort the couch grass out.  I speak about three words of Swedish, but he obviously wanted to take me somewhere.  I called for my son, who knows about ten word, and off they went up the lane together.  Son returned with a bucket full of lovely potatoes, onion and beetroot. So tomorrow I will pop along with my Swedish daughter in law and we will get a tour of a local allotment, with hopefully lots of tips about what grows best and how.

[Digeroo]

Well done, sounds as if potatoes, beetroot and onions all do well.  What no courgettes?  ;D    Maybe it is rather cold at night you may have to get the fleece in and the plastic bottle cloches.

[goodlife]

Ohh..Swedish allotments..that will be interesting tour. Find out if they have some local veg varieties that they save seeds for.. ;)

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And you never have to lime the brassica bed. Lucky you..unfortunately in Scandinavial most of the grown is naturally 'acid' down to the basic rock type that will support the acidity. I'm not saying that its absolutely everywhere..but most common...Liming is such a important part of the gardening year over there.

[plainleaf]

this is not cheap method but does work. use a trencher if don't have more then plot of
230 sq/m i do it by hand. since the rental cost would not be worth it.

[gwynnethmary]

What is a trencher please?

[plainleaf]

gwynnethmary try doing a simple search on Google and you will find the answer.

[Robert_Brenchley]

A trencher is a machine that digs trenches. If the boulders are more than a spade's depth down, they're probably best left alone. If not, maybe raised beds would be simpler than trying to dig them out? Stones breed; all you can really do is take the worst of them out every year.

[gwynnethmary]

We went to visit the old man down the lane and return his bucket last night.  He was thrilled to show us around his huge garden which supports an enormous variety of veg and wonderful flowers, all growing in the same stony soil-parsnips, carrots included.  And so I think that weŽre now all very reassured that things will grow fine here .  he and his wife have created a real paradise from a "heap of gravel" in  years.  We came away with a bag of perrianial roots he dug up.  I can see that heŽll be a very helpful neighbour, who will enjoy giving my son and his wife good local advice.

[louise stella]

Have you heard of Lasagna gardening?  Basically you build up a bed like a giant compost heap with as many layers of organic matter as possible and grown in that!  It would be a good way to start off a fertile raised bed!