Topic: Written warning letter please help

[tony69]

An old man leased the site and as people left he took over the whole site and wouldn’t let anyone back on, he eventually had the whole allotment site and then retired, and his son took over the lease from the council and cleared it all up and was told by the council he had to rent the plots out. There are approximately 15 plots but only 10 gardeners including the leasee due to people having more than one plot.

We paid £20 for a year’s rent and got a receipt, we didn’t know we had to have anything else like tenancy agreements or constitutions as we have never gardened away from home before. We were extremely happy to get the plot in the first place and were the first growers on there except for the now chairman. We live quite a distance from the plot and only go up every other day now it’s sorted and just needs tending.

All was well and everything was growing nicely when I went up one day and saw 3 people (the leasee and 2 gardeners) in the back of a van, one of the gardeners was reading out rules and the others were saying Yes or No, I approached and asked them what they were doing and they said they were forming a committee so that they could get funding for skips, fencing etc. Later one of the gardeners told me he was the treasurer, the other gardener was the secretary and the leasee was the chairman. The gardener told me they were discussing the rules and once they had them sorted (which was a big job because they had downloaded them from the web) they would post them on the shed wall for all to see and agree or disagree on. There were no votes or consultations about forming this committee it was basically suck it and see. But to be honest it didn’t really bother me as we live too far away and were just there to grow our own food and for a bit of relaxing peace and quiet.

Last Sunday I went to the allotment and with my hands full to the point of overflowing the secretary unlocked the gate for me (which was strange as it had always been left open if someone was on site). When I asked why the gate was locked he jumped down my throat and shouted at me it was one of the rules and the chairman was having a board made to put on the gate to inform everyone, He then went on in an aggressive manner shouting at me that if anyone left the gate open and his site got damaged or anything stolen he would personally come down, remove my crops and smash my equipment to make things equal. So then I got cross and shouted back at him (which maybe I shouldn’t have done as I don’t like confrontation) and asked for a copy of these rules which we had not seen, to which he said ‘I wrote the rules and I have the power to enforce them. I walked away to go to my allotment and to phone the other committee member, the treasurer, to report this abusive behaviour. The secretary was on his phone as I left he then came onto my plot entered my polytunnel and told me if I was aggressive like that again he had spoken to the chairman and the chairman said I would be removed permanently. I then asked him to leave my plot as I had paid rent for the year assuming it would now be my private land he then started shouting again and said he was management and could go where he wanted and if I didn’t shut up he would remove me himself there and then, At this point the Treasurer arrived and calmed him down and removed him from my plot. The treasurer came back to me and spoke about what had happened he then spoke to others on the site and agreed with me that the secretary was out of line and aggressive and the rules had not yet been allocated to people so we could only be advised to keep the gate locked.

The same day we were told by 3 other gardeners that he had been aggressive with them about locking the gate. We have no problem with the rule albeit it does make life extremely awkward as my plot is at the bottom of my 76 year old Mum’s garden and she likes to walk down and sit on our bench for some company and the kids like to go to her house, plus that’s where our toilet facilities are, the problem is the way that rule was put across, he could have just explained in a quiet manner, I personally think he had a power rush.

I telephoned the Chairman and he said he couldn’t speak to me as he was at work and to bite my tongue and he would speak to me when he arrived later on that day. He didn’t arrive so I sent him a text message thinking not to phone him if he was at work explaining it was late and I had to go home so I would speak to him in the week.

I have not seen him all week and then yesterday I received a letter from the chairman informing me I had been sent a written warning for unreasonable behaviour, the secretary had the right to advise me and should I cause any more trouble directly or indirectly to any allotment holder I would receive another written warning then I would be asked to leave, On the bottom of the letter it says please find a copy of rules attached for reference but the attachment was not there so I have still not seen these rules.

Having read the posts on this forum I seem to think that we should have signed an agreement and got a copy of the rules and constitution, this has not happened to date.

Please can you advise me of the next course I can take, I do not want to lose my plot but I cannot leave this as it feels like I am in school and not allowed to have an opinion or argue back at a grown man without fear of eviction. My plot is very important to us as it gives my Mum time to spend with us and we have put in a enormous amount of hard work and spent a small fortune, what happens to our veg and polytunnel if he evicts us.

Thanks in advance
Tony and Karen

[shirlton]

I feel so sorry for you Tony and Karen. This problem seems to occur so often judging from the posts we get on here.
I don't really know enough to advise you but there are some very knowledgable folks on here who will advise you what is the best course for you to take. I do hope that you get back  the peace and enjoyment from your allotment that you had before.

[Digeroo]

Welcome to A4A Tony69.  Sorry to hear you are having problems.

[grannyjanny]

Welcome to both of you, sorry that's it's under such difficult circumstances. There are several allotment 'legal bods' on here who can advise you.

[betula]

Have seen these situations on here so many times.

If it was me I would forget it and leave them to it.

I would not feel safe with the one guy you mentioned.

To stay means you are in for a battle and is it worth it?

[caroline7758]

That's terrible. It's when I read posts like this that I'm glad we don't have any kind of commitee.
Could you approach the council as they own the land?

[Jeannine]

Maybe it is just the rush of power he can't handle, perhaps if you just stay quiet for a wee while and keep your head down it may all blow over and things may get back on an even keel. Certainly you shouldn't;t be pushed around but perhaps this man has difficulty with people skills and has been over reaching his capabilities getting the committee, rules etc ready, who knows what has gone on that you haven't seen

Confronting the situation may make it much worse, I doubt he could get you  kicked off but it may build a wall that continues and makes life generally miserable.

I think for now I would keep a low profile and wait and see if he settles down. If nit in a little while and things get worse then certainly you should not put up with it.,

It must be distressing for you and I hope it clears up soon.

XX Jeannine

[tony69]

hi there thanks for your replies its nice to see people still care out there.
we've been to the allotment today to reep our rewards we got toms, potatoes, carrots, peas beans and some herbs for tea.

I've spoken to a few other people on the site but not said anything about my letter till I know what to say.

All seems well the aggressive committee member walked around the site when Ii arrived just looking but kept well away which was good for me.

The rules have suddenly appeared stapled to the shed wall which is a good start I suppose if a little late.

The rules state I can only ask to read the constitution not have a copy is this right.

The bad news folks is I have found a clean cut in my new water butt when i was refilling it right down at the bottom.
to me it looks like a very sharpe knife but no evidence means tough luck for me im afraid it just seems a little coincidentall it happens after the falling out and letter or am I just reading too much into things at the moment ?????

 

[betula]

This is my worry,he is quiet for the moment but then the nasty little tricks start.

It may not be him but I bet other odd things happen.

When that Bloke said to you "he would remove you himself there and then"your alarm bells should have been ringing big time.What would have happened if the other person had not turned up ?

Watch this space. >:(

[tony69]

Well Betula this man is 27 years old and a Alcoholic he got his allotment free of charge as it's supposed to be for the AA group to work on and enjoy the rewards, about 6 people turned up the first day he got it and since then (about 3 months) he has been on his own with his wife and child so were not sure if he has taken it on alone, if so then he should pay the rent in our opinion.

Believe me if the treasurer hadn't turned up and he tried to manually evict me then I would have put him to the floor pretty quick, I am 42 years old and not in the least bit worried or intimidated by him. I think the problem arose because I was the only person who had a go back when he started and I think he wasn't expecting it and he got a shock.

The sad thing about the rules is that one of them says the management have the right to enter and walk round our plots, even into piolytunnels which could cause a problem if they do it when were not there and break the zip, how do we prove it was them. I think this rule should be changed to only when gardener is present, and with just cause, but the rules state 'these are final.'

Other allotment holders have told me to return the letter to the chairman stating I will accept it when the secretary gets a letter and I get a copy of his letter as he was the aggressor, which is proved by the fact that he came after me 3 times when I walked away and ended up in my polytunnel with me.

The good thing is that the allotments are all together apart from the secretary's nobody can see his because it's up the driveway and hedged by 12' beech and conifer so he doesn't have anyone to talk to and pretty much stays up there.

At the moment were thinking if we don't speak to anyone and just enjoy our garden then we can't get into trouble but my wife is going to phone the council today and see if they still have any say in the matter.

Regards to all
Tony & Karen

[shirlton]

Sounds like a little hitler to me.

[goodlife]

Shouldn't any commitee been ellected by members to be legal..what has been written here sounds like group of few individuals just decided to elect themselves and start running the plots.
I do agree..seing council would be good idea and see what they say about it.

[BarriedaleNick]

The sad thing about the rules is that one of them says the management have the right to enter and walk round our plots, even into piolytunnels

That is just wrong and should be reconsidered - you should only be allowed to enter anyone's plot with permission even if you are on the committee.  Rule Number One!!

Legally it sounds an odd situation so I would leave that to unwashed or one of the people in teh know!
Personaly I think you did well to remain peaceful and I would try to stick with that path.  I would return the letter to the Chairman as suggested by some of the other plotholders but try to do it in a positive manner.
And get it in touch with the council..

[Alex133]

Unwashed seems to be a real expert on this sort of thing - perhaps he'll jump into help or you could search older related threads for guidance.

[blackkitty2]

Hi Tony 69 and welcome!

Just like you my first message on the forum was similar to yours with trouble up the plot.. A year on I have had the chance to recover and learn from what happened. I must agree with everyone else about contacting your local council. They advised me to keep a log of the 'harassment' and that they treated such allegations very seriously. They were very helpful and have supported me with constructive advice throughout.

Things have moved on for us and the site supe who caused all the trouble for us takes one look at us and turns his 4x4 around which makes me very happy. Make yourself untouchable by following the rules to the letter (written permission for everything) and do not leave yourself open for attack. Cover your a** in every circumstance. And OMG do not get into tittle tattle up the plot as it wound me up into a terrible frenzy of unhappiness!

On a more personal note I suggest the following things. Please don't take it personally as the sort of person who would verbally abuse someone they do not know well really does not care about you in any sense. We learned this the hard way. Also the temptation is to think that any theft/vandalism is the 'baddy'. A large metal trolley went walkies during our troubles and I just went nuts about it. Eventually the guy up your plot will get pay back and be abused himself as kharma always catches up to those who abuse and bully. It might take a while though but it will come.

No doubt it is him that got your water butt but you will find little recourse unless you can prove it. I was so obsessed I thought about CCTV, sleeping in the polytunnel, covert operations and all manner of hair brained vengeance. It really is not worth the tears, smashed crockery (oh yeah - my best Denby discontinued grrr) high blood pressure and destruction of brain cells. I am a happier and stronger person now having been through all the nonsense believe it or not. Sad thing is we trust noone now.

You must move on and keep your head down. It took me a whole year to get to where I am and I tell myself every time we are up the plot 'f*** him'. It keeps me on track.

Go up your plot and enjoy yourself and get eating your fruit and veggies.

[pigeonseed]

Hi Tony69 sorry to hear about all the aggro. Very good advice from blackkitty2. Always remember, it's not you, it's him who has a problem.

As the others have said, find out more about your rights, keep a record of what happens, behave impeccably yourself, and wait it out. It won't be like this forever.

Good luck with it all!

[Unwashed]

Hello tony69, welcome to A4A, really sorry you're having some bother.

Knowing your rights is one thing, getting your rights is quite another.  But these are the basics:

1.  It is the most fundamental implied term of your tenancy that you have exclusive possession, so in the normal course of things no one, not the landlord, nor the Council, nor anyone else, has any right of access to your allotment plot save yourself.

2.  Your landlord has an implied right to make reasonable inspections with your consent, but a contractural term that goes further than that, such as purporting to grant access at any time for any reason without consent, is repugnant to the nature of your tenancy.

3.  If your landlord goes onto your plot without your permission he's trespassing and you can ask him to leave, and you or your agent can use the minimum of necessary force if he refuses.  The police have no interest in trespass as it's a civil matter, but they have a duty to prevent a breach of the peace and if the landlord is stroppy and you fear assault you should call 999.  In practice it is much, much better to read up on assertive behaviour and not provoke a violent reaction - calmly insisting that your visitor leaves with a threat to report the matter to the council is a good strategy.

4. If your landlord continually goes onto your plot you can sue for any damage caused and you can also sue for breach of your contractural right to exclusive possession, though in practice this is unlikely ever to be worth the effort.

5.  Your landlord can't just create rules and regulations without a term in the tenancy agreement to allow it, and so any new rules and regulations are unenforceable.  If a rule is unenforceable it means a court won't grant the landlord possession for a breach of the rule.  However, if you quibble about a rule the landlord can just give you a notice to quit out of pure vindictiveness and there's little you can do about it.

Can you clarify the situation with the landlord please?  You say your parish council has leased the whole allotment site to an individual?  Is that individual a trustee?  You absolutely must speak to the parish clerk and your local councillors about what's going on.

Like I said, knowing your rights is one thing, but getting your rights is quite another.  In practice it can be a gold-almighty hassle unless your council is on your side, and if they aren't on your side then basically you're screwed.

At the end of the day if the only issue is the new lock-the-gate rule then although it's irksome to submit to rule-nazis there's nothing that I've discovered that you can do about it, and half of your site will love the idea anyways.

So what are the new rule?

[tony69]

Right the landlord as we see it.

These used to be allotments for lots of gardeners, one by one they left for whatever reason and 1 man took over all the plots and did not let them out. He has now retired and his son has taken over.

Son informed us that council said he had to turn them back into manageable plots and rent them out which he has done, he also said council have said he has to put back privet hedges he removed whilst clearing the land. It was in a right state a complete wilderness and the only thing he could do was get a JCB to clear it.

He told us that the site was privately owned and he was the manager of the site. We have been onto the council website and our allotments are listed as council owned plots so we think they ultimately belong to the council. He doesn't seem to be able to make his mind up who owns them.

We have phoned the council allotment person today but he was not available, left a message to phone us back but he hasn't done so today, hopefully he will tomorrow.

Whilst the locked gate rule is a bit of a pain we are quite willing to run with it, we really don't care, the problem came about because of the way he started shouting the odds and stating rules,rules, rules when none of us had seen them. And ultimately I got a written warning for shouting back but he didn't.

Rule No.10 now states, Any member using verbal abuse to another plot holder will result in a written warning (hence my warning). If 2 warnings are issued this will lead to a further letter stating that your plot has been lost.This is the best bit Any complaints regarding this rule must be made in writing to the Secretary. Yes the self same person who started all this aggression. Brilliant isn't it.

Rule 20 is the one relating to entering our plots it states.
20) Plot holders must not trespass on other plots (Nonetheless members of management committee have the right to go on all plots to check for hazards and make sure paths are clear.
Now the paths are grassed and kept completely clear as they have to be mowed by the landlord and whilst this doesn't state they can enter our polytunnel the Secretary informed us that he can.

If I could show you a picture of the allotments I would, they are very small and if you stand on the drive you can see all plots clearly with the exception of the Secretarys because his is up the driveway.

I have been told by the CAB today that we must make it clear that if the comnmittee choose to enter our plot without our permission then they will be responsible for any accidental damage we find. Don't think I can tell them that it will just wind them up.

Regards Tony and Karen

[tony69]

Can I also ask you guys what you think of this rule?

Rule 26 - From 2012 all plots will be leased on a 6 monthly period.

What happens to our veg if it takes longer than the 6 months to mature and they decide not to renew the lease for no particular reason.

We assumed that the 1 year lease would be pretty standard due to growing seasons.

tony

[Unwashed]

These used to be allotments for lots of gardeners, one by one they left for whatever reason and 1 man took over all the plots and did not let them out. He has now retired and his son has taken over.

It's probably a good idea t ofind from the council what the arrangement is.  They will have a copy of any lease and deed of trust and you can ask for a copy under the Freedom of Information if the council get funny.

You can do a search on the Land Registry site to see who owns the land, though it's possible it won't be registered (you need to do a map enquiry and it'll cost you £4).  If the land is let for longer than 3 years the council are obliged to have registered that with the Land Registry too.

Whilst the locked gate rule is a bit of a pain we are quite willing to run with it, we really don't care, the problem came about because of the way he started shouting the odds and stating rules,rules, rules when none of us had seen them. And ultimately I got a written warning for shouting back but he didn't.

Rule No.10 now states, Any member using verbal abuse to another plot holder will result in a written warning (hence my warning). If 2 warnings are issued this will lead to a further letter stating that your plot has been lost.This is the best bit Any complaints regarding this rule must be made in writing to the Secretary. Yes the self same person who started all this aggression. Brilliant isn't it.

Nothing unreasonable about that rule.  Of course, there's nothing to stop the rule being applied unreasonably, but that's a separate issue.  It's not reasonable to expect you to stay cool if you're provoked.

Rule 20 is the one relating to entering our plots it states.
20) Plot holders must not trespass on other plots (Nonetheless members of management committee have the right to go on all plots to check for hazards and make sure paths are clear.

Hazards on your plot aren't the landlord's responsibility, but all the same it's not entirely unreasonable for the landlord to make some effort to ensure that your plot isn't a danger to his visitors, but I don't see how it's necessary to go onto your plot to do that, he can make his inspection from the side paths (assuming it has side paths) and whether your own internal paths are blocked is of no interest to the landlord.