Topic: Compost is King!

[GeeGee]

If you had not already guessed, the allotments I'm on are brand new and in need of a great deal of work and TLC. One of the allotmenteers there has started a course at the local agricultural college in order to do his very best and get the most out of his newly acquired allotment - and good for him I say!

Me thinks he could be a very valuable and proactive member of our new allotments. The other evening he arranged a meeting at a local community centre and brought along his lecturer to give a speech and some very helpful hints on how we can improve the soil, buy en-mass bulk seed etc (meaning better buying power and quality of product).

One thing that did strike me though was that he impressed very strongly on the fact that compost on poor soil was the master of it all. Even going so far to say that if one of us could produce grade A compost we should give that producer a gold cup!  :) To all you veterans of allotments this will probably come as no surprise and you already know the value of compost, but I just thought I would share this man's thoughts with you all and maybe pick your brains on how to produce the perfect compost. Not that I want a gold cup!  :P Lovely veggies and workable soil that doesn't suck the water up with no profit is my ultimate goal.

[antipodes]

I don't know if mine is Grade A but it looks pretty good when it comes out! And adding compost and various manures every year do help the soil richness, there is no doubt.
I put everything in mine, it's in a wooden box. I put all veggie scraps, rotten fruit and veg, tea and coffee grounds, egg shells, anything organic from home, like dead flowers, and also some weeds (if they are only annuals like dandelion etc : bindweed etc I tend to rot down for several months before adding it), any old plants if they are not diseased, grass I have weeded out, and there is usually a reasonable amounf of newspaper and cardboard that goes in too. It takes a few months to break down, I just harvest a few spadefuls out when I plant things and mix it into the area I am planting. That's it!

[Digeroo]

I am on new allotments and the ground was very low in humus.  I have been improving it as much as possible with various biomatter.  Certainly no grade A compost as I am a failed composter but the plants like whatever I can make.  I find it rather difficult to keep it turned inside a plastic dalek.   Grass clippings get too moist and make a nasty smelly mess, so I take most those out now after a few days and use them as muich.  Cabbage stalks seem to take a long time to rot down.  If it is grade B or in my case grade Z once it is buried it soon seems to disappear.  Courgettes and beans in particular are not at all fussy.

I have also got some recycled compost Wiltshires results are very good quality but I think it varies considerably from place to place.  Swindon's has a very high wood content.

I have also used manure but also been caught by Aminopyralid issues.

After only two years some areas of my soil have improved enormously they have gone from concrete to butter.

I try and source two bucket fulls of bio matter every time I go to the allotment.

I understood it was against the law to take your food waste out of your own garden.

[Ellen K]

I'm on Year 3 on the allotment so a total noobie amongst so many vets.

Compost shmompost, I just want any old soil improver as my plot is a brownfield former landfill in a 19th Century claypit.

I have purchased a fancy compost bin from the council, they tell me it gets just that bit warmer, to have a go composting weeds.  Of course it is going to take them ages before I can collect it in spite of there being 50 in stock apparently.  But like Digeroo I have Daleks which do the business eventually but who wants to wait 2 years?

THE BIN: 10 GBP from the council ....

http://en.mattiussiecologia.com/home_life/compostaggio/composter_310/composter_310

But I really fancy one of those rotating bins that are whoppingly expensive.

[GeeGee]

antipodes - your recipe sounds totally divine, I was going to say delicious but on second thoughts that's probably totally the wrong word!  ;D

That is the kind of recipe I want to try. I also want to make the very best use of all the horsey poo that our little herd produce on a daily basis - after all we pay a lot of money for them to poop it out the other end!  :o

My only problem is convincing the OH to actually stop throwing all the veggie peeling etc straight into the dustbin. He hears what I say and apparently thoroughly agrees with my thinking; but he still keeps putting all the tea bags, etc etc in the dustbin. He also has a thing about security and so every piece of mail goes in the incinerator (which I actually bought to burn the NASTY weeds). Still I did read somewhere you can also put the ashes in the compost heap so I shall be asking for a hand to empty these out of the incinerator into a bag to transport to the allotment.

[GeeGee]

Digaroo/DenbyVisitor

Having never owned or used a delek I cannot comment on them in any form. Having said that I will impart what this lecturer had to say about them the other night.

It is very nice of the various councils to offer them for sale at subsidised prices. However, that is the very last positive point he has to say about them. In his view they are totally rubbish! No pun intended!  :o

Whilst they do indeed keep the material inside warm, they do not allow oxygen into them - shape of and lack of ventilation. This results in killing off all the little microbes etc that actually do all the hard work of breaking down the various material into beautiful compost. Ah poor little things they end up being suffocated, through lack of oxygen - in effect murdered!  :o  :o  :o  ;D

This, apparently, is why the material turns into a stinking, slimy mess instead of the beautiful compost that the gardener is hoping for.

His recommendation was the cheapest, being the pallet method, where, even the most incompetent of carpenters apparently can turn a couple of pallets into a container for compost within an hour. Because the sides have gaps plenty of oxygen can get in to allow the little microbes etc to thrive and do their job for the expectant gardener and turn all that waste into beautiful compost. As for keeping it warm he suggests covering with sacking or even a sheet of plastic (especially when it's raining etc) to keep the warmth in and the excess wet out.

[GeeGee]

Digaroo

I have heard about the Aminopyralid issue. Nasty stuff!  >:(

I can't think of anything worse than to have worked all year, thinking you are putting real goodness into your soil only to find that when you plants pop up they have been infected by some latent weed killer that some farmer or other has used on his pastureland. That must have been soul destroying.

I will be using are little herds' poos but then (very hopefully) I should not have that problem as we don't use any chemicals on our grazing and our little darlings are fed the best grade hay that we can source back as much as possible. The real reason for this is that we are very careful regarding ragwort, which is a killer for horses, and results in a very nasty and painful time before the poor horse finally expires.  :'(  Having said that I will also be double checking with our hay supplier that he doesn't use the listed weedkillers that cause the Aminopyralid problem.

Am I right in thinking that I read somewhere that these weedkillers have now be banned?

[GeeGee]

DenbyVisitor

I can sympathise and empathise with you completely regarding your soil. This new allotment I have a plot on was an agricultural field and it is probably the worst soil I have come across in this area. It is clay and has absolutely no nutrients or goodies left in it whatsoever.

It grows stones and flints very well though! :o  ;D

As for you being a noobie. Shucks you do yourself a disservice! Unfortunately, I haven't been able to do any real gardening for many many years, through lack of space. Just the usual flower borders and containers, some tomatoes in the back garden along with some beans and the much needed herbs.

My dear old dad on the other hand had enormous gardens in Norfolk and his vegetable plot was probably the size of two possible three allotments. He missed them dearly when we moved to Kent and cursed the small gardens here and the 'rubbish soil', so he too just stuck to the lawn and a few flowerbeds. I wish he were still around as he would've loved the thought of getting stuck into an allotment with me and more over would've been a great source of information. Actually at the age he would be now he would've probably been more of the guru figure, sitting in the sun advising me what to do and what not to do whilst he watched me carry out his instruction.  ;D

[Digeroo]

Aminopyralid was withfrawn but it has now been relicenced with a stewardship campaign.  Basically users have to sign that they agree with certain conditions, but actually it is a get out system for responsibility by Dow.  They are supposed to agree that the stuff does not leave the land in question.  But it is impossible to police if you cannot see it or smell it, and the problem only turns up later when particular crops are grown.

It is more complicated than simply asking the supplier if he has used the chemical  It seems to come in on food stuffs.  We have been totally unable to track down the source of the weedlkiller.  Once in a manure pile is can be very random and one bucket full is ok and the next contaminated.    I have one area with a problem with a huge unaffected broad bean right in the middle.  It breaks down in the soil and this can be very random as well.  The moisiture content of the soil seem to have an effect and the dry spring seems to make it persist longer in the soil.

It is still worth testing all manure with beans, phacelia or fat hen, all of whcih will show symptoms.

I am sure that your Dad with be with you in your thoughts Geegee.  I am sure you will soon manage to get your soil sorted.   I have found it has been surprisingly quick.  Our land had had livestock on so the fertility was not an issue.  But it had also been a gravel quarry so I think we win when it comes to stones.  But actually the plants seem to be able to work round them.   Some of the plots look more like a beach.

Nutrients and goodness  is not really an issue either.  With a large bag of blood fish and bone everything seems to go crazy.  For me it is water retention, and the added biomatter does improve both the moisture holding and drainage.  It always seems odd to me that biomatter sorts out both extremes. 

I am experimenting with straw bales and hope to prove to myself that soil is totally unnecessary. 

[Ellen K]

My Dad had an allotment too but as a younger girl I was too clueless to pay much attention, I thought it was something that old men did.  But I did stuff like fill his water butts with buckets of water from the site trough (and it was blooming hard work as I remember).  He's dead now but it gives me some comfort that he must have found that quite useful so maybe I wasn't quite 100% clueless.

Digeroo, there is a lawn weedkiller product that is widely available that I was looking at buying: Verdone - but from the label it seems to contain a weedkiller from the same class as aminopyralid. So I didn't buy it but I was looking at some of those grafted tomatoes from Suttons in the local GC and they had the charateristic fern leaves from aminopyralid exposure - so it is still about and perhaps all too easy to introduce into compost, amateur and commercial.

Guys, be careful out there!

[GeeGee]

It never ceases to amaze me how these people can get around the law to suit their needs and the government and associated authorities all turn a blind eye. It seems to be a sad fact that money always seems to talk over everything else including the health and well being of the everyday man.  >:(

Do you know if there are any 'weeds' or other wild plants that would grow in pasture land that would show signs of being affected by this stuff? I only ask because if there is I will have a good look around our paddocks to see if any are showing signs of being affected by it.

Failure to do that I suppose I could shove a few beans in the compost heap at the yard and see how they grow!  ;D

The farmer who normally comes and collects it will think I'm even more crazy than normal if I tell him under no circumstances is he allowed to take it away because I'm waiting to see how my beans grow in it!  ;D  ;D  ;D
I must admit it is quite scary to think that this poison could be lurking just anywhere. What could it be doing to the animals for instance and us when we eat those animal etc. It is all too depressing to think of the consequences that could happen.  :(

I certainly won't be discussing this subject with my daughter. She is so careful about what she feeds the horses and will only feed them premium hard feed and analyses the complete content to ensure they have exactly the right diet and nutrients to suit each individual horse.

This whole thing smacks of past outrages such as DDT and the like.  :(

[GeeGee]

DenbyVisitor

I had heard that there was still a lawn weedkiller around that still had the same compounds as aminopyralid.

I read somewhere that if you use particular weedkillers on your lawn you should not use the grass cutting in your compost heap to ensure aminopyralid is not transferred to your vegetable plot.

I wouldn't say I am or want to be a totally organic vegetable grower, but as far as I possibly can, I will not be using chemicals. Simply because there are so many unknown factors that the chemical companies are certainly not going to disclose unless forced to!

[GeeGee]

Digeroo

Blood and fish and bone were on my list of must haves!  :)

I agree with you it is really strange how the old bio matter in the soil solves both the problem of moisture content and drainage all in one.

That is one thing this lecturer chap said. The more compost you get into your soil the easier it is to work, the better the drainage and most importantly the better it will retain water and the crop will be fair heavier as a direct result. He said to put as much compost in as possible and do so year on year. He is on sandy soil (no problem with clay or flint just micro stones called sand!  ;D ) and he has a large farm trailer load of cow manure delivered every year for his garden at home.

Going back to the subject of fertiliser, I was also contemplating collecting the nettles in the hedgerows around our yard and taking them back to soak and using the resultant soup as a liquid fertiliser as I have heard that (or indeed a comfrey soup) makes a very good liquid fertiliser. Also it's free!  ;D Which is something nowadays.  ;D

[GeeGee]

DenbyVisitor

I am absolutely sure your dad found your help invaluable. You were probably more help than I was to my dad as a young girl.

I was an only child and my daddy was my hero. I went everywhere with him and watched what he did like a hawk. It was him that taught me how to wire a plug and later more complex electrical things, paint and wallpaper, do small things on my car etc. I probably slowed him down with all my questions and constant 'show me daddy, show me', 'why are you doing that?' 'What's that for?' Where does that go?'  ;D Thinking back he was probably proud to show me all these different things, but at the same time he must have had the patience of a saint to always be so calm and informative to my nonstop questions.  :)

[Ellen K]

I don't think the daleks are that bad, they've just got a bad rep because Councils sell them to households who don't produce anything like enough waste to fill them.  So they just become an eyesore in the garden which doesn't produce much.  Compost bins are also associated with rats which is a big downside.

GeeGee be a bit wary of getting all your info from one source.  Sometimes people can be quite selective with their facts to support their own agenda.  And have enormous blindspots when it comes to things they are passionate about.  But they are also inspiring. And you can see the benefits in only a season or two as Digeroo says.  These days I beg grass cuttings from neighbours and fish stuff out of the site skips for my bins.  But I still can't make anything like enough compost for my garden.

[Digeroo]

I also use lots of comfrey and stinging nettles which both grow in profusion locally.  Only downside there is the smell and with stlinging nettles it gets fly larvae in it which is a bit disgusting. 

Denbyvisitor is right about professional advice but it may be a good place to start until you find your own way of doing things.  I recently did some volunteering under professional guidance and found myself constantly at odds with the techniques being used.  They actually threw away the weeds rather than compost them.  ???

A lot of people on our site throw away their weeds and hence loose a great resource.  We have voles and snakes in our compost bins.  I do not think they are such a health hazard as rats but they do seem to nibble strawberries and pumpkins.

[GeeGee]

Digeroo/DenbyVisitor

Many thanks for your advice regarding not taking advice all from one source. To be honest I wouldn't. This lecturer was a commercial grower before he turned to lecturering and therefore does not have any apprehension when it comes to using chemicals for weeds and extra growth. Now me personally, I, at the moment, don't agree with him. My dear old dad grew veggies very well without the need for all those chemicals so unless I'm pushed or can't find any other way I won't be using the old chemicals.
See I didn't know about the fly larvae in soaked nettles! Many thanks for that one Digeroo. Just goes to prove your point in not getting all the information from one source, and also how invaluable forums like this are for sharing experiences.  :)
Whilst the lecturer didn't go into vermin in the palette type composter, I had read elsewhere about the problem. So I thought I might try a bokashi bin at home, so that all the food stuffs were already composted before I put them into the compost bin on the allotment.
Don't think I should have a problem with voles (could be wrong) but snakes are another matter, know I have to be careful down the yard that they do not slither into the hay barn in the summer. Think a wooden compost bin would have to be made (or one bought) with very small apertures on the side and an enclosed front (with the little door at the botton to access the 'cooked' compost). Now rats could be a problem because the allotments are only across the road from a large shopping centre with a large supermarket and food outlets in it.

[lottie lou]

From what I have read about bokashi - you have to bury the fermented "compost".   As our council, in their wisdom and probaly in the interests of "saving money", have decided to issue all household with "swill bins" I will attempt to make bokashi starter as I believe it is easy - rice water and skimmed milk.  The pallet compost bins allow air into the compost, and best of all they are free.  I personally haven't seen rats in my bins but then I have ext remely poor vision but I expect they exist.

[GeeGee]

Oh by the way I did know about the disgusting smell from soaked nettles and comfrey!  ;D Remember it all too well from when my dad used to use it!!!!  :o Phew!!!!  ;D But very good stuff, and lets be honest no fertiliser smells very pretty.  :)

This lecturer was also going on about automatic watering systems and drip hoses! Absolutely agree with him totally if it is in your own garden or you are lucky enough to have an allotment with one water tap per plot (fat chance of that happening very often though I would think).

My thought was, hang on there, there's going to be one water tap between something like 12 plots. Can you really imagine if you had an automatic watering system or drip hoses attached to the tap and someone else needed to use the tap? What would happen if they forgot to put your automatic system/drip hose back on? Dry wilted veggies! I'm all for saving water/putting it to the very best use, but unless you have the agreement of all those other plot holders, or worked out an automatic water system that was timed between all the plots involved then it would never work. Then of course you have the lovely little vandals and the ones that would come along and pinch your ever so expensive watering system! I think some cut up plastic bottles pushed into the soil next to the plants is quite efficient, far less expensive and totally indpendant of other plot holders and not impinging on other people's needs for water.

[GeeGee]

Lottie Lou

Thanks for info on bokashi, will have to do some more research on them. Have done a little bit, but obviously not quite enough. Still I assume even if you do have to bury it, you can put it directly into the soil on the allotment can't you?

This is exactly where Digeroo is so right, information has to come from variable sources before you can get to the truth or find what is going to really work for you.

I read somewhere that councils had forbidden vegetable peelings from household waste being put in a compost bin on allotments due to some government directive regarding the spread of foot and mouth. Whether it is completely true or only partially correct I don't know and was something I had ticked in the back of my mind to double check. However, the man in charge of our actual allotments was at this meeting last week and he did not put up any legal objection to vegetable peelings being put into compost bins on the allotments.