Topic: Are beans promiscuous ?

[macmac]

We grow lots of beans and a couple of years ago I grew butter beans next to climbing Borlotti.I saved seed but when we grew the next years butter beans from saved seed the resulting beans where mostly black not white.
My idea this year is to grow french one side of a row of canes and climbing borlotti along the other side.Would this be ok ? We dry the borlotti for stews etc and eat the french fresh

[electric landlady]

I'm not 100% sure but I think beans do cross pollinate, so you may end up with frelottis, or bornch beans. I grew two kinds of runner beans one year, can't remember what they were but one had red flowers and purple beans, the other white flowers and beans. The beans next year from the saved beans were all sorts of colours.

[1066]

I know that runner beans and butter beans cross pollinate. Would be interested to hear if Borlotti's did. I think the standard French beans are generally ok. But I'm sure someone will be along shortly.......  :)

[saddad]

As you say... runners and broads are always at it... but French are prudish... fairly certain Barlotti are in the French camp...  :-X

[macmac]

Thanks I'll give it a go  :)

[Robert_Brenchley]

Frenchies self-pollinate, so no worries there. Runners are right sluts, and do it with any old pollen. I've more experience with broadies (don't like runners), and while they screw around merrily, if I plant two varieties at opposite ends of the plot, they don't hybridise that you'd notice. I haven't tried it with runners.

[daitheplant]

Runner, French and Borlotti beans are all members of the same family, Phaseolus vulgaris, so will cross pollinate.  Not heard of Runner and Broad beans crossing as Broads are a differant family, Vicia faba, ;D

[galina]

As others have said already, Runnerbeans are very likely to cross with other runnerbeans, as are broad beans.  French beans can cross but that is much rarer.  I have found more incidents of it in recent years though, perhaps due to our healthy earth wasp and bumble bee population.  Runnerbeans can very rarely cross with French beans, giving rise to red flowered French Beans in the F1 generation.

The problem is the butterbean.  There are butterbeans that are vulgaris lunatus (unlikely that you have grown Lima Beans here but they are available in health food shops).  Then there are runnerbeans (ph coccineus)and there are also French beans (ph vulgaris) and both of them produce huge white seeds which are called butterbeans.  How they might have crossed depends on what species your butterbeans were.  If they were ph coccineus ie runnerbeans, they are unlikely to have crossed with your borlotti, but more likely with any other runnerbean grown in a quarter mile circle, or as far as bees will travel.

Borlotti beans and French beans are both ph vulgaris, they can cross, but the danger is not very great.  You should be fine for this year.

[Duke Ellington]

Frenchies self-pollinate, so no worries there. Runners are right sluts, and do it with any old pollen. I've more experience with broadies (don't like runners), and while they screw around merrily, if I plant two varieties at opposite ends of the plot, they don't hybridise that you'd notice. I haven't tried it with runners.

You have a way with words Mr Brenchley and you certainly made me laugh out loud!! ;D  ;D  ;D


Duke

[Jeannine]

 Phaseolus Vulgaris covers many beans  kidney beans,french beans,wax beans and  the dry beans, all belong in here.

Runner beans are are Phaseolus  coccineus family, and have several differences to above. They climb clockwise which is differnet to other beans , the cotyledons remain underground, the first leaves to show are true leaves,they do not cross with other beans , only with themselves.They need bees etc to pollinate.

 Phaseolus Lunatus is the butter bean / lima family

Broad bena/fava beans belong in the Vicia faba family

All of the above will cross within their families but will not cross with a differnt family.


Your Borlotti beans are Vulgaris, butter beans are  Lunatus, they cannot cross, your cross pollination has to have come from a neighbours bean  Same with the ones you plan for this year, they are both Vulgaris and they will cross.

XX Jeannine

Typed as Galina was typingButter beans are often misnamed in the UK I found, always wise to check exactly what they are.

[Bugloss2009]

most of the butterbean types we grow - spagna and gigantes, are runner beans and not lima beans, so will cross with normal runners. Only a problem if you want to save seed for sowing next year

[Uncle_Filthster]

I don't want to get into a big, boring lecture on taxonomy here but think I should clear up a couple of things.

French, borlotti, pinto, wax, etc beans are not the same family, they are cultivars of the same species (Phaseolus vulgaris).

Lima/butter beans (Phaseolus lunatus) and runner beans (Phaseolus coccineus) are in the same genus as French beans (Phaseolus).

It is possible for species in the same genus to hybridise and there are many papers on hybridisation in Phaseolus, including the 'father' of genetics, Mendel.

The above beans and broad/field beans (Vicia faba), and other legumes such as peas (Pisum sativum) are in the same family, Fabaceae.

It is also possible for some species in the same family to hybridise, although it is less frequent and the offspring are usually sterile, as seen in cyprinid fish and equines.

....Told you it was boring!  ;D

[1066]

But I'm sure someone will be along shortly.......  :)

told you so  ;)  :D  ;D

I've been trying to figure out how to grow my Lima beans (from seeds of italy) and my butter beans (swaps/self saved), and think my only plan, if I want to save the seeds, is to grow one on the plot and the others in the garden!

[shirlton]

We have grown cherokee beans for about 6 or 7 years now and we save our own seed.Every year we get some plants that produce a bean of the same size but flatter than the original and also more stringy. As soon as we see them we whip them out.Have also noticed that some of the saved beans are flatter and more straight edged than the original so this year have only sown the perfect ones.
will let you know the outcome

[saddad]

I don't want to get into a big, boring lecture on taxonomy here but think I should clear up a couple of things.

French, borlotti, pinto, wax, etc beans are not the same family, they are cultivars of the same species (Phaseolus vulgaris).

Lima/butter beans (Phaseolus lunatus) and runner beans (Phaseolus coccineus) are in the same genus as French beans (Phaseolus).

It is possible for species in the same genus to hybridise and there are many papers on hybridisation in Phaseolus, including the 'father' of genetics, Mendel.

The above beans and broad/field beans (Vicia faba), and other legumes such as peas (Pisum sativum) are in the same family, Fabaceae.

It is also possible for some species in the same family to hybridise, although it is less frequent and the offspring are usually sterile, as seen in cyprinid fish and equines.

....Told you it was boring!  ;D

I didn't think so... found it quite informative thanks... (better than what's on the radio ATM)  :-X

[zigzig]

Is it bean pornography and percy filth
Or growers with over sexed minds?

[1066]

We have grown cherokee beans for about 6 or 7 years now and we save our own seed.Every year we get some plants that produce a bean of the same size but flatter than the original and also more stringy. As soon as we see them we whip them out.Have also noticed that some of the saved beans are flatter and more straight edged than the original so this year have only sown the perfect ones.
will let you know the outcome

Shirl, thanks for posting as this has jogged my memory! I grew these last year for the 1st time and noticed some were flatter than others,and the flatter ones had a paler colour maybe a bit speckled, but as I hadn't grown them before I didn't know which kind was truer to type. They all tasted good tho!

[pumkinlover]

I want to try and save some of the HSL seeds to pass on in the seed swop but would like to make sure they are ok and true.
If I growed each variety in a wigwam and then wrapped  some fleece around the wigwam would that be a good idea? :-\
I love the idea of these seed swops and hope one day to be confident to offer to become a seed guardian for the HSL but as with most things there's lots to learn! :-[

I also found the posts Interesting!

[Robert_Brenchley]

If they're French beans you won't need the fleece. If they're runner or BB's, you need to think about pollination; it's no use shutting out the insects you need.

[pumkinlover]

Cheers, yes they are French.  :)