Topic: £25/pole rent

[Squash64]

Unwashed - this might be of interest to you:-

Birmingham City Council has 114 sites in total across the City,

2 sites are being developed and aren't open at the moment,

20 are classed as Departmental sites (no Association).

There are nearly 7,000 plots

There are 92 active Associations, of which 19 sites come under Self Management.

To deal with all this, we have one Allotment Officer and two full-time office staff.

(I asked one of the office staff and she gave me the information)

[Unwashed]

That's really useful Squash, thanks very much.  Oh, your PM box is full!

Council backed down on the £25/pole but everyone got a 47% increase.

[Geoff H]

So how big are the plots? How much will they be paying? I cant work out this pole thing - I was only born 56 years ago! I know that in Shrewsbury the plot i had was typical and that was about 90 feet by 30 feet. The only plots that we managed to get in my present town , after a lot of argument are tiny, with no water, nothing, so weren't any use to me.

[grawrc]

pole /rod/perch is 5.5 yards and normally used squared for land measurement. 1 (square) pole = 30.25 sq yards or 25.29 sq metres. So if your plot was 300 sq yards (90 feet by 30 feet) it was approx 9.92 (square) poles.(1 / 30.25 x300)

And I agree! One instance where the metric system wins hands down.

[Geoff H]

So by my reckoning they were intending to pitch the price right at the top end of the scale! If anyone is in this situation then you do need to convert it to what is a normal plot ie. 300 square yards approx. I reckon they  wanted £250 for that. I once did some research into what  facilities were provided by councils other than my own who did not even provide allotments. Sandwell was impressive. High metal security fence with impressive security gate, toilets, tarmac roads to the plots,clubhouse, shop, water taps everywhere, brick shed on each plot and delivery of wood chips and street leaves for allotment holders to use. And the rents were nowhere near that..
Allotments are good because they appeal to people of different ages, sex and cultures ( no longer the sole preserve of white, elderly working class males), they provide physical recreation for all including the elderly (how many leisure centres have much for the elderly?), they can easily be adapted to be used by the disabled, they provide community cohesion (usually), they are good environmentally and they help make communities sustainable.
Now i know I am preaching this to the converted and am not trying to "state the bleedin obvious" but councils have been set targets by government, all of the above of which are included in those targets. Some councils have twigged that properly run allotments mean they can tick lots of boxes and are actively encouraging them rather than trying to screw the tenants for as much cash as they dare.

[Squash64]

Sandwell was impressive. High metal security fence with impressive security gate, toilets, tarmac roads to the plots,clubhouse, shop, water taps everywhere, brick shed on each plot and delivery of wood chips and street leaves for allotment holders to use. And the rents were nowhere near that..

Just want to blow Birmingham's trumpet on this one - our site has all of the above too. There are also twice-yearly meetings with the Council's allotment department for all self-managed sites to discuss issues.

Plus a regular newsletter from the allotment department, posted to all allotment sites in the city. 

We also get our grass cut and hedges trimmed by council contractors (no charge to us)

There are 114 sites across the city with nearly 7000 plots with only one Allotments Officer and two office staff.  Not bad eh?

[tonybloke]

pole /rod/perch is 5.5 yards and normally used squared for land measurement. 1 (square) pole = 30.25 sq yards or 25.29 sq metres. So if your plot was 300 sq yards (90 feet by 30 feet) it was approx 9.92 (square) poles.(1 / 30.25 x300)

And I agree! One instance where the metric system wins hands down.

cricket wicket is 4 pole / rod  long, or 1 chain, (actual real item you can purchase),  10 chains = 1 furlong, the length of a furrow when ploughed by horses, (distance before horse had a 'breather' and turned round) 8 furlong is one mile.
the rod or pole was a long stick, long enough to drive a horse or ox from the back of the plough.
http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/units/length.htm#land

[Unwashed]

Sorry Geoff, the £/pole rate is useful because plots come in all different sizes.  5 pole or smaller is reasonably standard now whereas 10 pole was the standard size a decade or so ago, and before that it's possible that 20 or even 40 poles was thought of as a standard size big enough to feed a family.  40 poles is the biggest an allotment let under the allotment acts is allowed to be.

A pole, rod, lug and perch are all the same area - 16.5' x 16.5', and there are 160 poles to the acre.

So at £25/pole a 10 pole plot costs £250, and for example would be 30' x 90', and a 5-pole plot costs £125 and for example would be 30' x 45'.

[Geoff H]

I think my private plot is equivalent to about 30 poles. If you keep chickens you probably need something like that. I did hear of some plots years ago where they were allowed pigs. Even though its just the two of us and mother in law (my wife is suffering from empty nest syndrone!) I would find it difficult to cope with just 5 poles. In my town the plots are even smaller. Now you have given me figures I can probably work out exactly how little land people in our town have and use it to harrangue our stupid, lazy town council.
I am sorted for growing land but we have loads who have been waiting for years.

[tonybloke]

in our association there are plenty of folk who keep hens on a 10 rod plot,  (hen run can only be 20 sq yards max)  ;)

[Geoff H]

in our association there are plenty of folk who keep hens on a 10 rod plot,  (hen run can only be 20 sq yards max)  ;)

Yes, but if you want to keep the hens on grass and to free range standards you could only keep 2 hens on that (10 sq yards/hen)

[tonybloke]

you want to comply with all of this? http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/welfare/onfarm/documents/pb6490.pdf

[Geoff H]

On a small scale you can easily exceed those welfare standards. On the size of flocks that are allowed many of the chickens don't actually free range as far as intended. Hens are far happier in smaller sized flocks and more likely to make fuller use of the available land.
If you are selling surplus eggs then you have to adhere to the EU standards for free range if selling them as such (a lot don't). However if anyone complains then you have trading standards breathing down your neck.

[tonybloke]

On a small scale you can easily exceed those welfare standards. On the size of flocks that are allowed many of the chickens don't actually free range as far as intended. Hens are far happier in smaller sized flocks and more likely to make fuller use of the available land.
If you are selling surplus eggs then you have to adhere to the EU standards for free range if selling them as such (a lot don't). However if anyone complains then you have trading standards breathing down your neck.

we don't allow selling of produce from our sites, they are for providing foof for your immediate family, not as a business!!

[RW]

According to the Allotment Acts, produce from allotments cannot be sold to support a business, but there should be no objection to the occasional sale of surplus produce that is not for commercial purposes.

[Robert_Brenchley]

On top of that, there is no law against allotment associations selling produce! If surplus can be donated, this potentially be can be a useful source of additional income. We haven't got anything set up yet, but this is purely because the shop we were planning to work with closed, and we have not yet found an alternative.

[tonybloke]

According to the Allotment Acts, produce from allotments cannot be sold to support a business, but there should be no objection to the occasional sale of surplus produce that is not for commercial purposes.

how do you equate selling something to not being commerce?

Imagine,................... you rent some land at agricultural rent, to grow and supply local folk with fresh fruit and veg. you rent a small shop in locall high street, employ some-one to run shop, start paying rates, bills, etc....................
and them some ( * ) starts selling produce from their allotment, (against the spirit of allotments)  taking your custom......... Go Figure!!

[Unwashed]

Tony, the allotments act prescribes that an allotment garden is mainly for the cultivation of fruit and veg to feed to the allotmenteer's family, and so it doesn't specifically prohibit the sale of surplus - if it is genuinely surplus and the plot is being used mainly for fruit and veg for the family.  What an allotmenteer does with her surplus has nothing to do with the allotment landlord, so she can certainly sell it if she wants to.  Of course if you start using your plot to grow a whole bunch of stuff to sell so that it's no longer mainly used for fruit and veg for your family then the allotment authority would be obliged to stop you if it let the allotment under the act.

[tonybloke]

in the past we had a chap who used to grow 20 rod of mono-crop per year, (in rotation) sprouts in time for x-mas, one yr, leeks another, and so on!! ( he's not a plot-holder any more ) I appreciate that a 'glut' can happen, and some stuff is usually given away to friends, neighbours, etc,  but I think the selling of produce 'goes against the grain' (and the spirit) of allotmenteering. If you grow too much of any one crop, then don't plant so much next year!! ( 1st year allotmenteers and courgettes spring to mind  ;D ;D) If you keep growing too much produce, perhaps a smaller plot would suit?  ;)

[Unwashed]

Couldn't agree more Tony.  There'll always be surplus of the odd thing, but the decent thing to do is give it away, but Robert is talking about the association selling donated surplus and that sounds reasonable, especially if it donated some of the proceeds to a charity.