Topic: Allotment Rents

[tonybloke]

I know of several rents that are a d**n site cheaper than those on 'the list', i.e.£5 for 10 rod in 1 village where my parents live, and another one where the price is 1 penny per year per plot, (but no fences, trees or sheds allowed.) but these would really skew the findings of any survey.

because of the many different types of allotment sites, and different ownerships, (some city council / borough council / parish council / private company) and the different budgets and responsibilites that these various bodies have to meet, there can never be a 'average' rent. (mean / mode / median)?? pick your type of average?

I do agree that direct contact with official bodies is usually the best way forward, after all, what are your local councillors for??

[jennym]

jennym,

a pole is 5.5 yards squared, ie approx. 30 sq. yards.

112 sq yards is therefore just under 4 poles.

Thanks, BAK, thought my figures looked a bit dodgy, was a bit confused about whether poles were length or area, your figures make more sense  ;D

[Unwashed]

 Hi All

The average price of £4-33 appears to be wrong.

Because a pole TWO years ago had the average overall rate of £4-40
And a SE rate of £5-20 per pole

How can the price drop 0.07p per pole overall and 0-87p per pole in the SE over two years, when everyone moans at the massive price increases.
The above rates were based on a poll of 86 samples.

This poll appears to be loading the rates shown with very few in the higher range shown and a lot more shown for the low rates. Which gives an artificially low rate per pole? 

This pole also has a lot less samples than the older one.

Unless you compare like with like it is meaningless and pointless.

vegwise, I've described the methodology I've used to arrive at the figure of £4.33.  I've calculated the average rate for both a five and ten pole plot, because after discussion that looked like representative plots sizes, and then I've combined the two to give a headline average.

I've used every rate members have posted.  It's a public forum, and you can do the math yourself if you want.  I can't help it if £4.33 in inconvenient for you, but it's the result fromthis sample.  Because the frequency distribution is poisson and not guassian the median is actually a better metric, and that's £3.70/pole for a 5-pole plot, and £3.00/pole for a 10-pole plot.

Read my post: My criticism of Newbury Town Council is that they are running their service so inefficiently that thay spend £73.23 per plot on administration, and that their appalling inefficiency, and their refusal even to discuss the possibility of the tenants contributing to site maintenance, requires them to subsidise the service to the tune of £90.18, and because of this subsidy - haemorrhaging £1,000 per week - the Council will not create new allotment sites to accomodate the 100+ tax-paying residents on the waiting list, despite it being their legal duty.

And I am protesting this gross disrespect to the Newbury tax-payer here because 1. it's an allotment forum, and 2. none of the Leader, Deputy Leader, no Chair of Community Service would even reply to the Society's private request to discuss the matter, and 3.  because several members and oficers of the Council have accounts on A4A.

Would you like to explain your particular interest in me now?

[Unwashed]

I'm using a bit of statistics to quantify the likely range of the national average rates.  It's explained after the ranking if you're interested in that kind of thing.

I'm 90% confident that
For a five pole plot  the average rate is in the range £3.90 - £5.45, and is most likely £4.67/pole.
For a ten pole plot  the average rate is in the range £3.70 - £5.26, and is most likely £4.48/pole.

Here's the current ranking:

£1.20   reddyreddy
£1.50   chriscross1966
£1.54   heloise
£2.20   BAK
£2.20   ktlawson
£2.30   kea
£2.34   Lucho
£2.40   saddad
£2.50   digindep
£2.60   tonybloke (without water)
£2.90   springs
£2.93   TeeGee   
£3.35   jennym
£3.40   lavenderlux
£3.40   Trevor_D
£3.50   raisedbedted
£3.57   1066
£3.70   Sparkly   
£3.80   tonybloke (with water)
£4.00   BarriedaleNick
£4.12   Bill Door
£4.40   Squash64
£5.30   Poohs Tao
£5.50   manicscousers
£5.50   SMP1704
£5.85   taurus
£5.91   Mortality
£6.00   PurpleHeather
£6.75   Digeroo   
£6.84   cornykey
£6.94   theothermarg
£6.94   Unwashed 
£8.63   brian4951
£8.77   Twoflower
£10.00   Old Central
£15.50   PurpleHeather

What we really want to know is the average rate for every allotment site in the country, but it's difficult to do that and the best we can do is look at a sample.  Intuitively it's obvious that the bigger the sample the more accurately our estimate reflects the actual national rate, but it would be nice to quantify that somehow.

The Central Limit Theorem does that.  It says that the mean value of a sample is approximately normally distributed about the population mean with a variance of 1/n x the population variance, where n is the sample size, and the bigger the sample, the better the approximation.  It's simple to estimate the population variance from the sample variance, and because the distribution is normal we know, for a given level of confidence, the likely range of the population mean.

So, at 90% confidence, the actual mean rate is in the range

  m +/- 1.64 x sd/sqrt(n)

where sd is sqrt(n/n+1) x sample standard deviation, and m is the sample mean.

[Unwashed]

*hit the wrong button, sorry*

[vegwise]

Hi UW,
Don’t flatter yourself I have no more interest in you than any one else.

However your posts stand out like a sore thumb, because they are full of anger and it appears that you are very upset at your council, have they turned you down for a job or something?

I am not interested in political ramblings, 2 Led Zeppelin songs spring to mind – ‘Ramble on’ and ‘The Song remains the same’.

My only interest is what rates other people pay (they stick to the point) as a rough guide, what you say about your council is your affair.

Your rates have now risen from a range of £3-70 to £4-33, to a new range of £3-90 to £5-45 five poles or £3-70 to £5-26 ten poles, which I feel, is more realistic in the real world.

My point is,

No matter what you pay per pole from £1-20 to £15-50, does it matter if some people pay a few pound more or if some people pay a few pound less?  If at the end of the day you personally obtain pleasure and enjoyment out of having an allotment then it must be worth paying. It appears to me that you obtain neither?

What other pastime / hobby is so cheap where you can visit as many times as you like, stay as long as you like and grow what you like, with in reason, for a yearly yes we are talking about a YEARLY not weekly or month average fee of between £3-90 to £5-45 per pole for five poles or if you like £3-70 to £5-26 per pole for ten poles.

VW

[PurpleHeather]

I would love to know how you have got our fees up to being the most expensive

our rent is £30 for a year that includes

Membership of an association
Insurance cover from that association
Rent of the land from the owner
As much water as you want from a stand pipe (one between two plots)
The site is secured with a minimum of six feet of fence or hedging
Roads and paths are maintained and are stone
There is a car park on site
Free manure kept in storage.
Free wood chip

The size and shape of the plots does vary a lot due to the odd shape of the area we have and the plot holders who prefer to manage a smaller area due to infirmity. Most of the plots are bigger than those on a lot of other allotment sites.

I feel sure if you have got that pricing wrong then you must have with the others too. 





 

 

[Unwashed]

I would love to know how you have got our fees up to being the most expensive

Oops!  I'll see what I've done.

[Unwashed]

I have just copied this from Wandworth Council's site one line If you want to add it to the list.....................

Full rate
£15.50 per rod or 62p per square metre each year

What am I missing?

[Baccy Man]

I have just copied this from Wandworth Council's site one line If you want to add it to the list.....................

Full rate
£15.50 per rod or 62p per square metre each year

What am I missing?

The only thing possibly missing from that would be the concessionary rate of £10 per rod.

http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/info/510/allotments/212/applying_for_an_allotment/2

[Unwashed]

No, I'm not including concessions.  The basis is a full-price five and ten pole plot with all of the compulsory costs like water, etc when they're charged separately, and none of the optional costs like association fees, etc when it's actually optional.

[PurpleHeather]

What you are missing is that Wansworth council has nothing what so ever to do with me.

I gave you the information to help you compile your list from around the  country.

Our site in the North West of England I had already given you the details of at £30 each for a year, 4 halved plots and the rest full sized.

The association fees are not optional either. The only way to get public liability insurance for an allotment site is by being members of an association.

As you will know.  Public Liability insurance is a legal requirement for an allotment site.

[Unwashed]

The association fees are not optional either. The only way to get public liability insurance for an allotment site is by being members of an association.

As you will know.  Public Liability insurance is a legal requirement for an allotment site.

There is no legal requirement for an allotment site (that is, the landlord or managing association) to have public liability insurance (unless it's a horse riding establishment), and public liability insurance will cover the landlord's liability to the public in general, not just members of the association - that's the whole point.

Are you thinking about some kind of personal accident insurance that an association might provide for its members as a benefit?

[PurpleHeather]

Obviously you know more about the law than our council's legal department.

 

[Baccy Man]

According to the Association of British Insurers there is no legal requirement to have public liability for allotments. Most councils seem to enjoy coming up with new suggestions for health & safety measures on a regular basis though & insisting plotholders take out public liability policies gives the tabloids something to write about even if the council do have to deny saying it a few days later.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-460538/Danger-A-5m-injury-risk-allotment.html

http://www.somersetcountygazette.co.uk/news/1464498.allotment_claims_refuted_by_parish_council/

The council/landlord will frequently choose to have a policy which covers communal areas of the site & advise the plotholders they may wish to consider insurance but plotholders are under no obligation to do so.
In the event an allotment association chooses to have an insurance policy which covers all plotholders or an individual plotholder wanted their own policy then a combined Public Liability/Employers Liability policy would be more appropriate in most instances as it covers people who help you on a voluntary basis not just the general public.

• Public Liability Insurance: Provides cover if someone sues you because a member of the public (vandals or other plotholders trespassing on your plot etc...) is injured or dies as a result of negligence on the allotment. For example, if someone is seriously injured tripping over an uncoiled hosepipe. Cover up to £5m is usual.

• Employers Liability Insurance: If anyone helps you on your allotment – even on a voluntary basis – Employers Liability Insurance protects you against claims for their injury or death. Cover of £5m is the legal requirement.

• Combined Public Liability Employers Liability: It is usually cheaper for allotment associations and plot holders to buy combined cover rather than purchasing two separate policies.

• Professional Indemnity Insurance: Covers allotment associations in the event that someone loses money as a result of dealing with them. I can't imagine a situation where this would actually be required but if you were being paranoid cautious then cover could be obtained for an allotment site.

[tonybloke]

superb info Baccyman, as per usual!!!!
Our association has public and employers liability cover, btw. :)

[PurpleHeather]

As I say,  Our council tells us that we have to have the insurance, they say it is our legal obligation to have cover as an association.

It is a matter of no insurance, no allotments. No association membership, no insurance.

That is a condition they have stipulated and their reasons for doing so.

And I still have nothing what so ever to do with Wandsworth Council nor their charges which is the main issue

[grawrc]

I pay £20 inclusive of water for about 180 sq yards - 5 poles? ish

[Trevor_D]

Like Tonybloke's site - we have both public & employers liability insurance. I don't care whether it's a legal requirement or not - as far as I'm concerned, it's essential.

We charge £17, inclusive of water, insurance & everything else, for a five pole plot.

[grawrc]

Trevor, may  I ask who your insurers are and how much it costs? We have no insurance afaik and it's a nagging worry.