Topic: Aminopyralid Review Meeting Action Please

[realfood]

In view of fact that there are plans by the Advisory Committee on Pesticides to re-license Aminopyralid, I have written to my MP requesting that this be opposed.
I came across a useful website which gives the name and contact details of all elected Representatives. You just input your post code and up comes the information. You can then write within the same website and your letter is sent directly to your MP.
The site is www.writetothem.com
The more people that write to their MP opposing the re-licensing of Aminopyralid, the more likely it is to be effective.

[amphibian]

So the test kit will give a negative result, because laboratory tests for this aminopyralid are so unreliable, then Dow can wash their hands of any responsibility for your ten tons of toxic waste; whilst looking, to a bunch of non-gardening law makers, like they have engaged the full rigours of science in a responsible fashion.

So, we all stop using manure, how do we maintain our allotments, long term, without manure and what do farmers do with all their useless manure?

[Digeroo]

The whole thing does not make sense.  This product is for use on grass lond.  What is the grass for.  To feed to the animals, who then produce contaminated manure. 

Even if it is not sold where is it going to go.  This will put an end to muck spreading.  Where the stuff is just hurled round onto the ground with a machine.  So the next crop also becomes contaminated, and then this one is sold as feed stuff.....

Soon all our food and crops will be contaminated.

There are supposed to be very clear guidelines for use.  But we all know how it is, if all else fails then read the instructions.

When all the manure is contaminated then Dow will try and sell us fertilizers.....

We do not need a test kit we can see the results.

[Eristic]

So, we all stop using manure, how do we maintain our allotments, long term, without manure and what do farmers do with all their useless manure?

Not so sure about stopping the use of manure but it must be used with caution.If your manure has not been tested by growing a reliable indicator plant in it, it must not be used. This also applies to purchased composts.

And now I'm going to stir the shit up a bit, something I do not normally do, Unless the Soil Association and similar organizations grant permits for its use on organic farms, within the next 3 years most if not all organic produce will be contaminated and sold illegally. The Organic movement is dead.

[Digeroo]

Unless the Soil Association and similar organizations grant permits for its use on organic farms,

I am confused by this.  How could permitting it on organic farms be acceptable.

The Organic movement is dead.

I agree with you there.  I believe that this is a major disaster in the making.  Not just for organics.

When I was a child I read a book called 'the silent spring'.   Looks like the predictions in that book may come true again.

[ceres]

The genie was out of the bottle the day the first of these products was approved.  We have in all likelihood been eating meat, dairy products and drinking milk that contains traces of aminopyralid since day one.  

The Safety Data Sheet for Forefront says to keep livestock out of treated areas for at least 7 days after treatment.  Does anyone believe that happens?  It also says that manure/slurry shouldn't be used for composting/mulching.  We all know the farmers ignored that one.

The problem we have is that, compared to the farming lobby, we are chicken-sh1t.  Even at the height of the problem last year, only 1500 people signed the petition.  If you weren't affected or didn't know someone who was affected, you didn't bother.  And even if you were affected, some didn't bother doing anything.   Last year, in the round of Parliamentary questions, DEFRA reported they had received some 70 reports of contamination.  Until the millions of gardeners in this country make their voices heard, nothing will happen.

Digeroo, Garden Organic (formerly HDRA) guidelines on Organic growing allow the use of "Straw, hay and farmyard and horse manures from non-Organic sources - after being aerobically composted for three months or stockpiled for six months (The extra time is to allow some breakdown of any chemical residues that might be present.)".  This guideline was presumably developed at a time when 6 months was known to be long enough.  But, as we know, aminopyralid doesn't break down if the manure is stacked.
  

[Digeroo]

Not only are we chicken **** but also Dow are probably doing their utmost to fight. 

However though I have come late to this I feel very strongly about this.  My world, our world is being poisoned. 

The farmers are making a choice on my behalf and I find that unacceptable.  It seems I cannot reject this chemical.

The Safety Data Sheet for Forefront says to keep livestock out of treated areas for at least 7 days after treatment.

   

Seven years sounds like a more acceptable length of time to me!!!

It also says that manure/slurry shouldn't be used for composting/mulching.

So what on earth are they going to do with it.?  No more muck spreading?

[asbean]

Be very aware that Dow is watching this thread like a hawk  >:( >:( >:(

[Digeroo]

I very much hope so.

[amphibian]

Be very aware that Dow is watching this thread like a hawk  >:( >:( >:(

Dunno why they'd bother, they know full well that the government will listen to their 'science' over some gardeners' anecdotal evidence.

What I don't understand about this product, is what is it actually meant to be for, if it's not for producing food for livestock. Surely the cost of buying in hay, or the hassle of producing hay without its use, would be less than the hassle and cost of disposing of thousands of tons of paying contaminated animal waste; unless of course, as we all know, you dispose of the waste in a way that you're not meant to, id est palm ito off on an unsuspecting third party.

[Digeroo]

The letter comes from Professor J G Ayres  Just gave him a google.  Seems to be a doctor of environmental medicine, at birmingham.  No connection with farming at all.

Seems to be an expert on air pollution and asthma.  But this does not cause asthma so thats ok then.

[Gbar]

The letter comes from Professor J G Ayres  Just gave him a google.  Seems to be a doctor of environmental medicine, at birmingham.  No connection with farming at all.

Seems to be an expert on air pollution and asthma.  But this does not cause asthma so thats ok then.

I know a little bit about how the ACP works. It is a committee of both prominent  scientists and lay people,  with expertise in poisons, toxicology, sustainable agriculture, pest management, ecology nutrition food safety etc.  There is no representation from the chemical industry.

The committee is also backed by observers from Environment Agency, Natural England, and the Food Standards Agency amongst others.   The fact that Professor Ayres has no connection to farming is good thing.

The committee does on many occasions refuse to approval a pesticide.  So on this occasion they must be satisfied with the process that Dow have put forward to ensure that aminopyralid does not again get into manure and end up in gardens or allotments.

Have you contacted Dow to tell them how much manure you have?

[ceres]

Hi Gbar, you seem to know goes on behind the scenes with respect to aminopyralid.  Perhaps you could declare your interest so that we can put your posts in context?  Thanks.

[Digeroo]

Thankyou Gbar.  Welcome to the site.  I hope you have read all the posts about this subject.

This stuff is still causing problems some time after it has been removed from the market.  Dow cannot possibly police its use. 

How much have I got? about four bucket loads, and it is doing a huge amount of damage.

I have contacted Dow and they do not feel inclined to reply.  Perhaps you could PM me with better contact details.

[ceres]

Digeroo, have you tried this email address?  It was the one given out last year for contact about aminopyralid:

UKHotline@dow.com

[Digeroo]

Sent a quick email I will not hold my breathe. 

I just hope Professor J G Ayres from Birmingham University, has some idea of precidely what Dow thinks is going to happen to all this manure.  After all the product is going to be put on grass that is then to be eaten leading to contaminated manure.

Does Professor J G Ayres from Birmingham University know that he might be involved directly in the death of organic farming and gardening. 

[ceres]

I wrote the following to Professor Ayres in response to his letter sent out to us by the ACP:

"Thank you for your recent letter on this subject sent out by the ACP.  As an allotment gardener whose plot was badly contaminated last year, I'd be grateful if you would answer some additional questions on the proposed re-introduction of products containing aminopyralid.
 
1. How will the restrictions on movement of manure contaminated with aminopyralid operate such that it cannot enter the supply chain to amateur gardeners?  Will some substance (e.g. a dye) be added to the weedkiller products such that it is obvious from it's appearance that resulting manure is contaminated and therefore cannot be sold/transferred on.  Will it also be visually obvious from the appearance of hay/silage/feed stuffs that they have been sprayed such that livestock and stable owners cannot mistake the fact?
 
Because, if as I fear, the restriction is merely a strengthened admonition on the Safety Data Sheet, it won't work.  The users of these products to date have felt entirely able to ignore the instructions on the Safety Data Sheet.  I understand that the Safety Data Sheet has the force of law but not a single user of aminopyralid-based products has been held accountable and prosecuted because of the difficulty in proving the chain of contamination and in testing for the presence of aminopyralid in damaged plants.  How will amateur gardeners be better protected and able to take action against those who break the law under the proposed new restrictions? 
 
2.  When my plot was contaminated last year, I looked into the issue of testing for the presence of aminopyralid in manure and damaged plants.  I contacted the Central Science Laboratory and another laboratory suggested by the (then) PSD.  The conclusion of my investigation was that it is possible to test for the presence of aminopyralid.  However, the amounts are so miniscule and it is so tightly bound to lignin that extraction for testing is problematical.  Testing may well produce false negatives and is prohibitively expensive for the amateur gardener.  So I am quite surprised to read that the manufacturer will make test kits available to those of us with possibly contaminated manure.  Will these test kits be free-of-charge?  How will they overcome the problems of testing that I encountered last year?
 
Or is my suspicion correct that we will be provided with a 3" pot and a bean seed?  Because, if so, this proves that those making decisions on behalf of allotment holders and amateur gardeners understand little about the logistics and timing of growing crops on a small scale.
 
3.  If the new restrictions do work and contaminated manure is contained on farms, how will farmers dispose of the mounting quantities?  The recommendation is to spread it on pasture/grassland but surely the concentration of aminopyralid will rise if contaminated manure is constantly spread on the same areas.  Farmers dispose of the quantities of manure they have no use for themselves and the supply to amateur gardeners is a cost-effective route for them - they avoid landfill disposal charges and in some cases gain small revenues where they are able to sell it rather than give it away.  What will they do with it under the proposed new restrictions?"

He has replied saying that he will take further soundings and that they wish to try to do what they can to sort this situation out.

[Digeroo]

At least he actually replied.

[ceres]

What was his response to you?

[Digeroo]

Same as you he is going to make 'further soundings'.

Dow are now maskerding as Manure Matters.  Details of the 'test' are now on their web site.

http://www.manurematters.co.uk/equine_health.htm

And yes it is a pot and some broad beans.!!!!

Don't know why they don't choose dwarf french the effect is much more dramatic, and even quicker with sun flowers.