Topic: Crop rotation - totally confused & advice needed

[luckydog]

I'm starting to grow in raised beds for the first time this year - have only grown in containers before - and am trying to plan roughly what to grow in each bed so that I can rotate things.  In theory anyway!   ::)

I will have 8 beds in total, each measuring 10' x 4'.  One of these beds will be allocated to strawberries, and the other 7 for veg.

Everything I seem to read about crop rotation suggests the four main groups of Roots, Legumes, Potatoes and Brassicas.  Now this is where it confuses me - the only thing I may grow that comes into the brassica family are a few cauliflowers or some broccolli, so how do I get around this?  Do I just use the other 3 categories to rotate things?  Any advice appreciated.   
Luckydog ;D

[Trevor_D]

Everyone ends up with a different answer!

Basically, you group certain crops together because they have the same requirements. But - as you've found - they don't necessarily take up the same amount of space! And it's even more complex than that, because you also need to make sure that the next rotation in that bed follows on chronologically (eg. don't try to follow sprouting broccoli, which crops into April, or even May, by early spuds which go in early March!!)

After a lot of experiment, I've come up with:
A - potatoes, followed by leeks & winter brassicas (where I've grown the earlies) and autumn onions & garlic (where I've grown the main-crop)
B - roots & spring-sown onions
C- peas & beans
D - tomatoes, courgettes, squash, sweetcorn

It's certainly not perfect. I can see a lot of holes in it myself. But it seems to work. For me, that is....

[Tee Gee]

I basically agree with Trevor this is my renditition;

http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Crop%20rotation/Crop%20rotation.htm

There is another way of looking at it and it is this;

Some plants are hungrier than others and some require lime others dont.

Plus you shouldn't add lime and manure at the same time.

OK potatoes need muck but not lime so they have to go into a bed that has not been limed.

Brassicas need lime but not as much muck as potatoes, so brassicas can follow potatoes and you can add lime.

Most other things don't need a lot of muck or lime so these can follow the brassicas.

So a simplistic view is;  year 1 muck....year 2 Lime....year 3... neither as I say it is simplistic.

Because somethings take up more space than others this can beggar up your plans but think this way;

There is nothing to stop you treating say one and a half beds for the big group and the remaining half for another group.

This is where a planting plan of your beds each year comes in handy.

It means you know which half was treated one way and the other half another way.

http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Planning/Planning.htm

[Barnowl]

As Trevor says there are plenty of divergent opinions. Here's Bob Flowerdew (we're not worthy etc) who seems to be at one with TeeGee on the subject:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/gqt/fsheets/12_08_01/fsheetsq8.shtml

That is what I try to follow more or less since, for starters, I haven't yet grown carrots.

Again there are mixed opinions on this but supposedly Brassicas can be interplanted with Chard,  Spinach, Celery, Beetroot and Onions which wouldn't interfere with your rotation.

[Duke Ellington]

When I started out i found this video very helpful...

http://www.gardenersworld.com/how-to/projects/crop-rotation/

Duke :)

[Robert_Brenchley]

Don't get too anal about it. As long as you don't grow the same crop in the same place year after year - with some exceptions like runner beans which don't have any diseases - then you're OK. If you keep growing onions in the same place you're asking for white rot, if you keep potatoes in the same patch you won't spot the accidentals which may be carrying blight. And so on. But you don't have to stick to some rigid scheme or anything like that.

[luckydog]

Thanks everyone for all the good advice.   ;D

[Bjerreby]

When I started out i found this video very helpful...

http://www.gardenersworld.com/how-to/projects/crop-rotation/

Duke :)

Well that was interesting! I saw what Monty had to say, and now I am confused! He recommended growing alliums with beans and peas!

I have a little book called "Gardening Secrets From National Trust Head Gardeners". I bought it because of the section on companion planting by Danny Snapes, who is Gardener in Charge at Fenton House, Hampstead. According to Mr Snapes, onions are incompatible with beans and peas.  ???

[Tulipa]

Hi Bjerreby,

There are different ideas on crop rotation depending on which book you read, so I suggest you find one that suits the type of crops you prefer to grow and use it.  I have an HDRA or RHS (can't find it at this moment to tell you which) book on Organic Gardening which I use as it has a simple diagram of rotation.

As regards alliums with beans and peas, my book groups them together as they have the same requirements so I put them in the same 'block' of my rotation and obviously one row is next to each other but it doesn't seem to harm them. They are not really mixed in together.

My allotment is divided into 4 blocks so it is easy to rotate the groups around although there is some overlap but basically as Robert says, as long as you don't grow the veg in the same space in consecutive years there shouldn't be too much problem.  I reason that with 4 blocks and a little juggling to allow for different sizes in the groups there should be at least a two year gap in mine.

Hope I haven't confused you even more - didn't mean to! ;)

Good luck

T.

[Eristic]

Just to confuse everybody even more crop rotation is not actually essential at all. That's the way it is in all the books but I prefer to grow on the dedicated bed system whereby the ideal requirements for the individual crops are provided.

If your cabbage patch does not have club root and you produce your own seed and grow your own plants the cabbage patch is not going to develop club root regardless of failing to rotate.

Of course, in the event that a patch does develop a host specific disease, the particular patch will have to be given a new crop.

Consideration has to be given though to the harvest times of crops to enable a second crop to grow without upsetting the follow on.

[Tee Gee]

I agree Eristic basically it is 'let common sense prevail'

[Tulipa]

Yes Tee Gee and Eristic, that is what I was trying to say too, in saying choose which rotation suits you.  Allotments are meant to be for pleasure and enjoyment along with health giving veggies, not stressing over if you have got your rotation right. :)

Enjoy it.

T.

[Bjerreby]

Hmmmmm

My wife gave me the RHS Encylopedia of Gardening, and I rely quite a bit on it, although in many respects it lacks details for novices like me.

It does however give a very clear idea of how to group various  crops for rotation, and I think their basic idea is that:

1.   Podded plants fix nitrogen in the soil on their roots, so follow them with
2.   Brassicas, which have high nitrogen requirements, and might want lime added to the soil
3.   "Roots", which include potatoes, carrots, parsnips and beetroot. Most of these are dense, which helps to kill off weeds, so follow them with
4.   Alliums, which can be a weeding problem, and might also need lime, so adding lime can be done every second year.

This is quite a different idea to the one Monty puts forward in his video, when he says grow alliums with beans and peas. And I wonder why Mr Snape is categorical that alliums are incompatible with beans or peas? Is it a bit like all this moon and stars stuff, you know, handed down ideas without any broadly agreed acceptance?  ::)

I am sure there are many ways of doing this successfully. Maybe that's why we beginners get confused over the advice we receive!

[Eristic]

1.   Podded plants fix nitrogen in the soil on their roots, so follow them with
2.   Brassicas, which have high nitrogen requirements, and might want lime added to the soil
3.   "Roots", which include potatoes, carrots, parsnips and beetroot. Most of these are dense, which helps to kill off weeds, so follow them with
4.   Alliums, which can be a weeding problem, and might also need lime, so adding lime can be done every second year.

1. while it is generally accepted by all that the nodules on legume roots fix nitrogen, while the plant is growing this nitrogen will be taken up by the plant as well as any available from the manure. No significant nitrogen will be given out to the soil compared to the manure so moving them around the plot gives no advantage and it is the gardener's job to make sure the plant is well fed. They might as well stay in the same spot year on year.

2. Because brassicas have high nitrogen requirements and may require lime it makes sense to me to keep them in the cabbage patch.

3. Potatoes, carrots, parsnips and beetroot require very different growing conditions to each other for best results. Potatoes are heavy feeders but carrots and parsnips do not like manure. Beetroot likes salt. Keep them separate.

4. "Alliums, which can be a weeding problem"? I think the RHS in its infinite wisdom is suggesting here that weeds don't grow amongst other crops. Leave enough room between plants for the hoe and the problem it is sol ved.

Shall we have an argument?

[Borlotti]

My runner beans like staying in the same place, but my OH will insist on moving the wooden supports about, which drives me mad.  Pleased to hear that runner beans can stay as most people have a permanent structure that they don't move and get good beans.  I have found that some vegs grow better in certain places on my allotment so do not do the rotation method every year.  My strawberries have certainly decided to move away from the strawberry bed and being very clever have moved themselves to a more sunny spot.  Well just off to plant some seeds, wish they could talk and they would decide where they wanted to grow.  Will certainly try my carrots in a different space as they were useless last year.  Courgettes don't seem to care where they grow.  Have planted a few 'apple pots' in the same place as pots last year.  Not sure what they are as were given to me by Manuel.  I also grow a few flowers on my allotment and never have to buy any as I just go and pick them.

[laurieuk]

I agree fully with the comment about worrying too much. It is your garden/allotment and want suits you is what you do. I have never rotated according to the "book" but do not follow brassicas with brassicas or potatoes with potatoes. My runner bean row has been in the same place for 23 years. I am moving it this year as I have had rust the last couple of years and I am not sure if it could be soil borne or on the canes, so both will be changed this year. I have worked for various people during my gardening life and not had anyone who wanted the same amount of the different crops.

[cornykev]

My runners stay in the same place on the end where my mate made me a wooden frame, I rotate but not in the order the books say, the more you read the more confused you become.  :-\   ???    ;D ;D ;D

[Bjerreby]

1.   Podded plants fix nitrogen in the soil on their roots, so follow them with
2.   Brassicas, which have high nitrogen requirements, and might want lime added to the soil
3.   "Roots", which include potatoes, carrots, parsnips and beetroot. Most of these are dense, which helps to kill off weeds, so follow them with
4.   Alliums, which can be a weeding problem, and might also need lime, so adding lime can be done every second year.

1. while it is generally accepted by all that the nodules on legume roots fix nitrogen, while the plant is growing this nitrogen will be taken up by the plant as well as any available from the manure. No significant nitrogen will be given out to the soil compared to the manure so moving them around the plot gives no advantage and it is the gardener's job to make sure the plant is well fed. They might as well stay in the same spot year on year.

2. Because brassicas have high nitrogen requirements and may require lime it makes sense to me to keep them in the cabbage patch.

3. Potatoes, carrots, parsnips and beetroot require very different growing conditions to each other for best results. Potatoes are heavy feeders but carrots and parsnips do not like manure. Beetroot likes salt. Keep them separate.

4. "Alliums, which can be a weeding problem"? I think the RHS in its infinite wisdom is suggesting here that weeds don't grow amongst other crops. Leave enough room between plants for the hoe and the problem it is sol ved.

Shall we have an argument?

Not with me! I only argue concerning stuff I know about! I am a novice veggie grower. Give me 10 years and then ask again!