Topic: Help Desperately Needed With Young Dog

[DenBee]

I posted about getting my new dog a week past Sunday.  She's a beautiful boxer pup, now 22 weeks old.  Intelligent, and with a lovely nature.

BUT - from what we can see she's been taught some dreadful habits by her previous owners.  They play fought with her - a lot.  And now we're struggling to curb this.  Today it boiled over in an unpleasant way.  She was left with my 15 year old and my 9 year old daughters for 30 minutes while OH and I went to the shop.  While we were gone she (non-maliciously) went for the older one.  Bit her legs through her jeans, jumped up at her, and barked at her.

This afternoon, she pretty much did the same to the 9 year old.  OH, daughter and dog were playing in the garden.  OH was throwing a ball for pup to fetch.  Pup ran after ball, then daughter ran in another direction.  Pup forgot about ball and chased daughter, who she then grabbed by the leg.

She's not deliberately being aggressive.  But she really does not seem to have any barriers when it comes to this stuff.  We've tried verbal and physical dominance, but I think maybe she got the wrong signals from that, and considered it part of the rough play game.  We're now trying distraction and basically gentling her when she gets excited.

I'm in a dilemma.  I don't think her ex-owner will want her back.  And to be honest, I'm pretty sure I don't want to give her back to him, because she will finish up in a pretty bad way if they keep treating her like that - probably end up being put to sleep as a dangerous dog.  And she cringes a bit when she soils in the house, so we think maybe she's been hit for that.

I'd love to keep her, but I don't really know if it's possible.  After she caught the youngest one, I immediately said she had to go.  OH thinks we got a bit of a shock, and possibly over-reacted.

Help, advice and opinions honestly sought.

[aromatic]

 :-\ Now I must stress I am no means an expert on this subject only a dog owner that has brought up a puppy collie and managed to shake off those sorts of bad habits by these methods..... when I used to play with Basil and he began to get rough and I felt his teeth, I would shout NO in a very loud voice and then walk away and shut myself in another room for a few minutes, enough for him to know that I was not going to tolerate that kind of behaviour and if he did it again, the game would end and I would no longer be available for play. On the other end of the scale I would make sure I had in my case cooked chicken treats in my pocket and when he did something good, such as playing nicely he would be fussed and rewarded with a food treat..... its amazing how quickly they learn. if you are really worried though it may be an idea to seek professional help and get Kia into a training programme that incorporates dealing with that sort of behaviour. As I say I am a novice but I found this worked for me... it may work/help you, it may not... and of course I am quite sure you will have loads of helpful advice off other forum members that will be of great help to you.  I wish you well with Kia, I am quite sure in time you will have a wonderfully behaved and happy dog in your lives...

[DenBee]

Thank you Aromatic.  I'm a bit stressed at the moment, but I'll read properly and digest.  :)

The irony is that we were just about to book her into a training course starting next Tuesday, but the rules specifically say that no puppies with aggressive tendencies will be allowed.  And since I now can't, hand on heart, say she isn't aggressive - even if it isn't meant maliciously - then I don't think we can take her.

We'll have to look for a different course I think.

The main problem we have with definite reactions to her behaviour is that we're having to overcome this idea she has that any firm tone of voice, even saying "No", is an incitement to "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough".  I could murder the people who used to own her.  ::)

[kt.]

  Walk & play with the dog on the lead.   When disobedient, hold the lead as close as possible to the collar & get the dog to sit.   At the same time turn facing away from the dog to ignore it, stand still and do not interact in any other way until the dog obeys.  Just my opinion, I am not an expert.  This is what I was told when I took my German shepherd to dog classes.  It worked.

Alternatively, what about a dog cage?   When the dog is bad put her in it for a few minutes.   Have you tried taking your dog for a walk with another dog owner so your pet can see other dogs behaving more sensibly.

[betula]

Yes I agree with aromatic.

In the meantime I would ask your children to be quiet and steady around the dog.

I would try not to leave the dog unsupervised with the children.

I am sure that with the right training she will be fine .If I were you I would
enlist the help of a trainer as soon as possible. :)

[DenBee]

Thank you all.  She's actually pretty good on the lead.  Walks more or less to heel.  Sits when told.  Gives paws.  So they taught her something positive.

She sleeps on her bed all night.  Doesn't make a fuss when someone comes to the door.  Is kind of house trained.

But then a trip switches in her head.  And she goes a bit micey.  This is when the battle starts.  She's obviously an alpha dog, who has been taught nothing about her place in the pack.  We've had to train her to stay off the sofas and our bed.  She isn't allowed upstairs (bungalow with loft conversion).  And if she's been naughty, then we've got her to calm down, if we dare then to call her a "good dog", she's off again.  ::)

We definitely won't be leaving the kids alone with her.  They're the ones who are begging me not to get rid of her. 

We do have a crate which my boss loaned me.   I'm going to do some research on using it properly.  We haven't left her alone in the house yet, either.

I feel foolish and like I'm flailing a bit.  I used to know a lot about training dogs, but it's about 20 years since I had a puppy to train, and he was a completely different kettle of fish.  And I think maybe dog training might have moved on a bit since my Barbara Woodhouse days?

[aromatic]

 :-\ Maybe instead of shouting NO then perhaps that idea that I have seen/heard somewhere. where you fill a small empty bottle with pebbles or something like that and keep it at hand, especially when playing and if she does something aggressive then shake the bottle of pebbles vigoursly, which should in theory frighten her a little and immediately distract her from what she is doing... and then you can take control of the situation again.
I know there are courses out there for dogs/puppies who are showing aggressive tendencies. Your dog will have a behavioural assessment and a training programme will be devised according to your dogs/puppies needs and it will go from their.... I imagine once Kia has progressed with this course and overcome her difficulties you can then proceed with your original course.
Please do not feel foolish its all trial and error and every dog is different. I think she sounds great but just has this little problem that needs sorting out. Kia is young and still able to change any bad habits... so please do not dispair it will all come right in the end!!!

[DenBee]

We saw that on a programme called Dog Borstal a little while ago, and OH said today he was going to find a bottle to try it.

I'm trying not to despair.  It's very stressful at the moment, and I've cried on OH.  Then sat and shivered on the sofa.  Neither of which are anything at all like me, in fact incredibly unlike.  But both of my daughters have cried today with shock at being the target of such aggressive play.  And I worry that maybe I'm not the right owner for her - clash of personalities kind of thing?

We changed her name from Kia to Rosie the second day we had her.  Ironically, OH said he thought Kia sounded like a name for a fighting dog.   ::)

[betula]

I would not use her crate as a punishment but I would isolate her for a short time as punishment say in a room on her own.

The crate should be somewhere she is happy to go and stay.

Put a few treats and cozy bedding inside and leave the door open.When she is happy you can start closing the door for a short time .She will soon be going in under her own steam and it will become her refuge from the hurly burly of family life.The crate is great for travelling in the car as well.

I have a westie who shall I say forgets her manners and I recognise the signs of when she is not sure to nip or lick.This nearly always happens when she is over excited,normally coming back into the house froma great walk.We isolate her to calm her and show she is not welcome around us when she is naughty.She is gradually improving.

Don't make any hasty decisions.If I were you I would go the training route
ASAP. ;D

[aromatic]

Rosie is a lovely name..... Please try not to upset yourself too much. From what I have read about Rosie she sounds a great dog really, just has an unpleasant habit that can be sorted out. I agree with betula regarding your children that at the moment I think it would be a good idea to be very quiet and steady around her and no playing with Rosie at all. I think if any playing is to be done it should just be you or your OH on a one to one basis so it can be controlled. I swear by the treat method... all dogs love their food and learn very quickly that way. In the meantime and maybe as soon as tomorrow concentrate on getting Rosie on a social skills/behavioural course. I am absolutely positive you will end up with a dog you love dearly and visa versa. I can understand how you feel I really can... I think you need to try to relax yourself tonight... a nice long soak in the bath and unwind, a good sleep and it will seem a lot better tomorrow. You will feel better when you are doing something practical to help the situation by sorting out a course for Rosie... keep us posted and please stay positive... Rosie needs your love and support ... she certainly has the makings of an excellent dog.... this is just a blip I can assure you!!

[DenBee]

We're all going to bed now - the one place she definitely does behave!  :)

Thank you kind people.  We're going to sleep on it, and see what tomorrow brings.

[posie]

I have a springer spaniel who used to do this as a pup.  If you use the crate for any other type of training then please don't use it as punishment for her aggressive behaviour or she'll just have the wrong associations.  Something that worked for us is to yelp as loudly as possible when Ruby got too rough, in the same way as her litter mates would have, when she stops the behaviour praise her too. She's basically trying to figure out where she is in the pack, so you and OH would probably be above her, but to her the kids are pups and she's trying to get higher up the pecking order.  Hope that helps.  She really will be fine but it's a long process and you do need a lot of patience.  I would speak to your vet as well and get some advice, also look online for a boxer group and see if you can get any advice from them.  But do enjoy her when she's not being a pain in the arse! I always said that Ruby would have an ASBO if she was human!  ;D

[DenBee]

I reckon Rosie's more likely to get 6 months for GBH!  ;)

We realised why she went after our youngest yesterday in the garden.  Turns out her previous owner and his brother used to play a lovely game with her when they had her out without a lead.  They'd run away from her and then she'd chase them and grab them "by the tracksuit" as her ex-owner described it on the phone today.  Can you adam'n'eve it?  Of course my daughter wasn't wearing a tracksuit, but wearing skinny jeans, so instead of grabbing her by the trouser, obviously the dog got her by the leg.

Some people.  Grrrrr!!!  >:(  I just don't understand them at all.

The reason I was speaking to him on the phone was to ask him if he wanted her back.  He didn't.  And also to insist he forward us her papers (innoculation, pedigree), which he still has, in case we do decide she has to be rehomed.

And I haven't eaten for over 24 hours, so at least I've finally found something that stresses me enough to keep me off my fodder.  Usually everything makes me eat.  ;)

[grawrc]

Just a couple of pointers:
Tell your girls never to run away from her. Any dog will chase someone running away and their instinct is to catch (=bite)
I think it would be good to sit down together and list the commands she does well and practise them with her (taking turns) and reward her when she gets it right. I'm not a great believer in treats all the time - a hug, apat or a what a good girl should do most of the time.

Since she is trying to be a dominant dog I would have 1 person being alpha dog initially. That person can run the pack and punish her (like mama dog would do e.g growl at her, nip her or roll her over) if she is too rough. Then add in others who are higher up the pecking order than her. e.g. when we first got our cocker she thought the kids were pants: she wasn't aggressive unless they were but she never obeyed them. As they grew up and learnt how to handle her she began to respect them more.

[posie]

Good grief the man sounds like a total muppet!  And he would have been the first to bleat about it if she'd harmed a kid.  When will idiots like him learn that you cannot train a dog to be a guard dog and then expect it to be a family pet  ??? ??? >:( >:(  Dogs will naturally protect you and their territory.  He was clearly flippin brainless. Grrrrrr, I'm so cross!!!!!!!  She's still settling in, so persevere with her as stressful as it is, she really will be worth it.  My mum used to breed Boxers and I always remember them as totally nuts, totally loyal and lots and lots of fun.  If she does it again, you could offer her something in lieu of your leg and then praising her with cheese when she takes the distraction.  

I took in Hamish, a rescue springer pup who was malnourished and kept in a kitchen with the door shut from the minute he was born and basically left to fight the adult dogs for his food.  He's been with us since November and we're finally breaking through his behaviour issues.  He'll now bring his biscuit in to eat instead of gulping it whole as fast as possible and we can hand feed him.  His habit of wanting attention constantly and being literally on your lap and in your face to get it has taken a little longer to break however!  All they need is love, patience and lots and lots of walks!  ;D

Ps:  Grawc's definitely spot on about commands and practice.  However a word of caution:  make sure all of you are consistent with the commands you use, i.e. sit or sit down not both, or down or get down.  Having said that, Hamish will respond to sit down, Ruby to sit.  Hamish to get off and Ruby just insolently stares at me as if to say "Sod off it's my sofa and no I won't"!!!  ;D ;D

[grawrc]

yes Posie, you're right. That's why I suggested sitting down together to discuss the commands that she already obeys. Even the tone of voice is crucial in the early days as is the self belief.

And all new commands need to be agreed too - as with children, consistency is everything.

[aromatic]

Oh Denbee... you must try to stop stressing over this... Please also get something to eat!!!
Everyone has given you sound advice.... so you just need to digest all the information and decide what path to take.  The other thing I meant to mention yesterday is something posie has already mentioned and is most essential to a dogs psyche and that is walks... they do need to run off that excess energy and of course have something to do during their day... a bored and un-walked dog with excess energy is like a mini time bomb. I give Basil three good walks a day morning,afternoon and a shorter late night walk. I interact with Basil on walks and we play throw and retrieve and because Basil adores sniffing out and searching for hidden objects we play the hide and seek game as I call it... by the time Basil gets back home from his walks he is very glad of a decent rest!!
I really honestly believe you have a wonderful dog their Denbee and with lots of love and understanding which I know you have buckets of and a bit of sound educating Rosie is going to be a much treasured member of your family.


                                             

[Sharonindauk]

Hi... i can feel your frustration, Dave (white Boxer Boy) joined my family in October last, through Home Counties Boxer welfare at 1 year old, us being his third owner  :o   He soon became known as ASBO Dave ;) , we were advised to make sure he knew where he was in the pack, when we walked out the house he always walked out last, and when we returned he walked in last again, he was not allowed to be in front of any of us on the stairs etc etc, also when anyone came into our home they were to ignore the dog completely till they had said hello to us all and only when Dave had settled down was he shown any attention, this i found one of the hardest things to put into place as of course my boys would want to have a good old boxer play. what you describe of what has happened to your children sounds an awful like a Boxer at play, but who has not learnt to control herself, does Rosie bounce all over the place when she first greets you? I use to have dave swinging off the back of my coat the first days when we went out for our evening walks, i ended up with a nipped hand and by the time we got home was in floods of tears. Dave is not my first Boxer so i recognised his antics from my last babe Oscar, what we did was as soon as he seemed to get a bit over excited i would get him to stop. it takes time, and even 6 months later i sometimes have to just pull him up, as like kids boxers will definitely push there boundaries.
Dave has a crate which he loves, and then he has a naughty step which he hates being put on, i never pull on his collar i just muster in on his space and make him go to it that way by pointing and saying No every time he goes in the wrong direction
 all the advice given is great
.... kind regards...sharon

[blisters]

Hi Denbee

Don't loose heart - we had very similar problems with our Doberman boy when we got him as a 9 month old pup.  Very dominant to say the least!
Everything Sharonindauk says is right ie make sure that you and your family are the first to do everything and the dog comes last.  Also, when you feed her, make sure that you and all the family pretend to eat her food first.  All this reinforces the fact that she is the least important member of the pack.
We were also told that when he got a bit too excited and was jumping all over us, to completely ignore him and turn our backs to him.  This took a bit longer to work, but eventually the penny dropped ;)
Overall, it doesn't sound like Rosie is a vicious dog, just an exuberant boxer pup that has never been taught manners. 
I would think that any decent dog training school would help once you've explained your problem, even if it means a few private lessons.

Oh yes, our whisperer also said to be 100% consistant and never let them get away with anything.  In his words 'Dogs are the eternal optimist and if they do something right 99 times but you let them get away with it on the 100th, they will spend the next 100 times trying to get away with it again!'.

Good luck - you'll get there in the end.

[posie]

In his words 'Dogs are the eternal optimist and if they do something right 99 times but you let them get away with it on the 100th, they will spend the next 100 times trying to get away with it again!'.

That quote could have been written for springers  ;D

Even the tone of voice is crucial in the early days as is the self belief.

That's something that I had to seriously work on with the kids.  For a woman I have quite a deep voice which my two springies respond to.  The boys' voices haven't broken yet, so I've had to get them to create a deep voice in order to get Ruby in particular to respond to them.