Topic: A Shrub for a Difficult Site

[Garden Manager]

I have become rather stuck for ideas for a shrub in a particularly awkward spot in my garden.

The location is basicaly dry shade, next to an evergreen hedge. It is also in a bit of a frost pocket. The site is also close to and in full veiw of my conservatory. The soil is alkaline/chalky.

What I would like is ideally a deciduous shrub that does not grow too big (no more than 2m ultimate height and less in spread). It should have at least some winter interest (flowers?), and be fully hardy (to about -10c). This last is the most important given the frost pocket it would be in. I know finding something to suit all criteria is probably near impossible, so it would be OK to have say an evergreen, as long as it had perhaps bright attractive foliage or flowers in winter, likewise I could prune or train something that was a bit too big.

I have considered shrubby honeysuckles, viburnums, witchhazel and winter sweet, which all seem unsuitable in some way (much as I would like to grow any one of them).

Can anyone help please?

[Georgie]

Hi.  Not the most exciting of shrubs I guess but I reckon Aucuba japonica (spotted laurel) would suit the conditions you describe.  It can grow to 10 feet but you could easily keep it in check by pruning.

G x

[ACE]

How about using two plants? I have used physocarpus diablo with a freckles clematis growing through it. The clematis can be cut down to 60cm after its winter flowering allowing the shrub to do its thing in the summer. Both plants are bomb proof and will  suite the soil. They will need a bit more food as they will get hungry using the same spot.

[calendula]

dry shade, next to a hedge and a frost pocket - think I'd opt for a garden gnome  :o

[Garden Manager]

Funny you should mention Aucuba. On a visit to a local garden centre recently I looked for the shrub for the site in question. Couldnt find what I wanted (hence this topic), but did come away with 3 small/young shrubs that were on special offer and selected with other areas of the garden in mind. One of them was Aucuba, the others a convolvulus and a Choisya 'sundance'. Perhaps I should put the Aucuba in my 'troublespot' instead!

I have clematis in the border already, which are due to be moved to make way for the shrubs as part of a revamp,, and I was wondering if I could train one up one of my new shrubs eventualy.  If I went for a shrub that flowered in winter and wasnt that interesting in summer then that would be a desirable course of action.

One other shrub i thought of since starting this topic, that might be suitable is Chaenomeles (flowering quince). Some varieties flower from late winter onwards and they dont get too big. The only caveat would be the books say it will grow in shade but flowers better in sun. Can anyone confirm this. Would it be worth a go?

Thanks for your help

[Georgie]

I'd say Chaenomeles is fine in partial shade.  I tried one in full shade but it wasn't happy.  Then again this was years ago and its failure to thrive could well have been down to other reasons.  If you can find one for a reasonable price I'd say it was worth giving it a go if you are particularly after winter flowers.

G x

[grawrc]

I have a chaenomeles in full sun that does brilliantly  and one in partial shade ditto. The one in deep shade died as did the Camellia that followed it. Have you thought about garrya elliptica (lovely winter tassles) - see Tim's post "Glen Miller anyone?" in Non edible plants. Some of the Eleaegnus are good in dark corners too providing colour all year with their beautiful variegated leaves. Mahonia of various sorts copes well too producing both flowers and berries.

[GrannieAnnie]

Flowering quince is a favorite- tough, first to bloom, good for forcing inside in winter for some early springtime, and fine in dry soil and in partial shade of big trees. Hard to transplant as a big bush so don't be like me and just plop it in helter-skelter.

Also like a variety of  hollies for their prunability, shiny leaves, red/black berries that birds like and always look clean. Plus they can grow in shade or full sun.

[Froglegs]

I was going to say Hollies or Mahonia, but i must say i like the sound of Ace's idea.

[Garden Manager]

Whilst I would prefer a deciduous shrub for the site, as it would fit in with plans for the rest of the border revamp beter, I have decided to go down the evergreen route.

This id not ideal, but I have a tleast come up with a shortlist now of  Holly (female, silver/green varegation or plain green), Osmanthus (a holly like shrub with scented autumn flowers), or a mahonia.

I would prefer though either a winter flowering viburnum or a shrubby honeysuckle, but I think these would probably  get too big in time and  need too much pruning.

Ona slightly sepereate note the border revamp is going well, I have cleared half of of it of existing plants and started to double dig it to remove weed roots and releive compaction.

Thanks for the help and advice.

[Tee Gee]

What I would like is ideally a deciduous shrub that does not grow too big (no more than 2m ultimate height and less in spread). It should have at least some winter interest (flowers?),

I think we might have a confliction of terms here;

I only know of one shrub that is 'deciduous' i.e. 'No leaves' and flowers in winter i.e. before the leaves open and that is Jasmine nudiflorum.

Forsythia & Flowering currant will do similar but they don't flower until spring.

If you mean evergreen then there are quite a few but even there you will have to be careful as lots of these do not want chalky soil.

You might get a few more ideas here; http://tinyurl.com/ylmj3z

[Garden Manager]

I can think of a few more shrubs that are at least classed as deciduous that flower in winter TG. I have seen them with my own eyes!

Viburnums (notably 'x bodnantense' and 'farrei')

Shrubby Honeysuckles (L. purpusii and L. x fragrantissima), although sometimes these can be semi evergreen.

Witch hazels (most if not all). These though are not lime tolerant so whilst i like them a lot i cant have one.

See i have done my research!

[jennym]

Not deciduous, but Hebe 'Mrs Winder' has nice purpley tips to the leaves this time of year.

[Garden Manager]

The thing I have found is that height and spread measurements on garden centre labels and books can vary or can be a bit vague. I have seen at least one shrub of the same cultivar/variety at different garden centres  with quite different dimensions on the labels. It can make choosing plants confusing and frustrating if you dont know for sure if the shrup will fit the site planned for it perfectly or take over the garden!

Could anyone confirm the height and spread of some of the shrubs discussed, the Viburnums in particular?  Thanks.

[grawrc]

I think part of the problem is that eventiual height and spread depend so much on growing conditions. Everything in my garden seems to grow twice as big as it ought and I spend days just chopping stuff back. :o :o

[Slug_killer]

How about a Cryptomeria japonica.

Evergreen, green but turns bronze with frost, tough, moderately slow grower,  happy in dry, tolerates shade.  Height/spread 2m*1m. Good winter specimen plant.

The only trouble is that most of them tend to be butchered/toperised which removes all the lovely natural form (a good specimen will look like a child's drawing of a cloud).

[jennym]

Lots of folk grow Viburnum x bodnantense 'Dawn' round here - I have one and its around 9 ft tall after 10 yrs but is in heavy clay and almost full shade. There's one locally that is getting on for 12 ft.

[Garden Manager]

How about a Cryptomeria japonica.

Evergreen, green but turns bronze with frost, tough, moderately slow grower,  happy in dry, tolerates shade.  Height/spread 2m*1m. Good winter specimen plant.

The only trouble is that most of them tend to be butchered/toperised which removes all the lovely natural form (a good specimen will look like a child's drawing of a cloud).

Thats a conifer isnt it? Thanks for the suggestion but I dont 'do' conifers!

Jennym: I know you mean well but saying a 'Dawn' can get so big doesnt really help me much! Now if you had said they dont grow as big in shade as the books say, then that would been quite encouraging. Sorry!

[Garden Manager]

After yet another fruitless search of a local garden centre for any of shortlisted shrubs, I decided to broaden the search and expand the criteria for the plant i wanted. I thought if i included spring flowering shrubs it might make the choice a bit easier.

I then realised a solution to the problem was in the garden all the time. Rather than find something new that fitted the site, why not go for something (at least for now) that i already had in the garden and knew would suit the site.

I have gone for a Ribes sanguineum (flowering currant). i propagated a number of these a few years ago from an old one that was in the garden when we moved here (since removed). I planted out a couple of these new plants and they are doing well, but are not particularly visible from the house. i had 2 over which have remained in pots ever since. Recently i placed one that was flowering into the border gap in question, just to add a bit of colour and enjoy its flowers, not intending at first to plant it out. I changed my mind when i saw how the flowers compimented other nearby plants, particularly the hellebores which in most years would be in flower at the same time.

i know this sounds a bit boring but my veiw is it will serve a purpose until something better comes along. Being a homegrown plant it hasnt cost nothing an will be no financial loss if/when it gets taken out.