Topic: HELP! Stubborn boyfriend on new allotment with lots of underlay!!

[MissMegan]

My boyfriend and I have an allotment.  We got it in July, but were both lazy and didn't do anything over the winter, (which I now realise was a foolish idea).

He got a whole bunch of underlay from his brother-in-law who is a builder.  Apparently it's the kind that blocks out light but lets water in.  That's currently covering the WHOLE allotment, but has only been there a couple of weeks. 

His plan is not to dig, not to use layers of newspaper/cardboard/straw/manure/compost/etc. like the no-dig websites and books say, but to just to put down manure under the underlay, and cut out holes in the underlay where he puts seedlings.

I'm sure that this will help get rid of weeds after a while, but I'm afraid that
a) this won't aerate the soil so things might have trouble establishing roots
b) the manure won't be with other things that will build up heat and aid breaking down so it will just sit on the top
c) it will look like a MASSIVE eyesore and we'll get in trouble with the allotment association.
d) it won't actually let all the water in, and we'll flood the neighbours' allotments on either side.

He says that this is to save time because he doesn't have the money or time to source lots of compost or hay or straw for the no-dig method OR the time to double dig the whole place. 

Is this a good method?  I have my doubts, but maybe someone will back him up on this.  Am I right in thinking this is a crazy idea?

ANY advice would be appreciated. Especially alternatives that wouldn't mean double-digging everything or spending a fortune on lots of compost! 

Thanks,
Megan

[Tee Gee]

Dare I say it ???

With gardening in all its forms the return is comparable with the effort put into it.

Because of the resilience of seeds/plants you will get some return but how much is anyones guess.

Its certainly not my idea of gardening.

I will leave it at that!

[Old bird]

Megan

I think you may be on dodgy ground with the underlay and the chemicals in it that it was manufactured from.  I understand his principle but I don't think underlay is the way to go forward!

Why don't you put (assuming you can get loads of manure) loads of manure straight on top of the weeds and plant through that? If the manure was 2 - 3 inches deep it would act the same as the carpet underlay by shutting out light to the weeds.  You would probably not be able to put seeds into such a soil base but small plants could just be planted straight through this mulch.  You would still have to dig up dandelions, docks and other permanent type weeds individually.  He could then carry on with his straw etc type thing straight on top of the manure?

[SMP1704]

I'm with TeeGee and I also remember how scary a big uncultivated slice of land can appear!

How about a halfway house approach.

Cover the plot with manure and cover that with the membrane and plant through with plants that don't mind that kind of treatment, e.g. potatoes and squash/pumpkin spring to mind but it could also work for toms and cucumbers as the soil will be warmed, but think about how you will water them - maybe sink an upside down bottle to get water to the roots.

In the meantime, you can roll back a portion of the membrane to dig -single digging would do and weed - do a bit at a time and recover it with the membrane.

Remember that by cutting holes and harvesting the veg, the membrane will probably only last for a year in any case.

Hope that helps - you don't need to double dig or throw loads of money at the plot in order to cultivate it.

[calendula]

all that manure will not suit a lot of plants until it has well rotted down which takes time - I don't think you can be lazy when growing fruit and vegetables but if you love it the work doesn't seem like work  :)

[Suzanne]

I agree with Old Bird re the chemicals in the underlay, also I am assuming its manmade materials which may break down over time and become annoying if you ever did want to dig it or rotovate. Having previously removed lots of decomposing carpet and underlay from an allotment I had in the past I know its not an easy or pleasant job.

Personally I get a great deal of satisfaction in clearing land by hand, even digging out the nasties like horsetail - but then I am told I am strange.  :o (But it is cheaper than gym membership and more enjoyable IMO). If this isn't for you and you are not looking to be organic then the easiest short cut would be to spray with glyphosphate and rotovate. Then cover with something that is made for the job. Alplas plastics do ground cover materials which are fairly reasonable that last up to 20 yrs. You can then either plant through this, after incorporating manure, or just use it to keep an area under control.

I buy from ground cover materials from www.allplas.co.uk

[davyw1]

If you cant afford  garden spade or fork to dig with, and  as you say, lazy then there is very little point in having an allotment. You will only get out good produce by on the effort you put into it.
It grieves me that people put carpet/underlay a a covering as it has been treated with fire resitant Chemicals. Then when you come to take it up what do people do with it, try and burn it, more toxic into the soil and air.
Garden fork and spade £20
3 bags of 6X manure which is the equivalent to a load of manure and will do a garden 25 x 30 mtrs     £12
A bit of hard work and you end up with the best tasting veg in the world.

[markfield rover]

Hate carpet and underlay ,we took on a plot the 2 and 3 layers thick  took alot of time and many trips to the dump and I mean many try moving it when wet ,ugh! just nasty. Oh and that is where the mice live!

[Sparkly]

Buy some plastic and cover up most of the plot. Work on a managable area to get under cultivation for this season. You will be surprised what you can harvest from a relatively small area! Dig over this area properly and remove all the perennial weed roots (dandelion, dock, bindweed, couch grass etc). If the area is that bad then perhaps let the weeds come through in spring and spray with glyphosphate before covering? Perhaps it would be an idea to speak to an established allotmeenter on your plot to help you identify what weeds you actually have. Sometimes an allotment can look bad, but it is really mainly annual weeds! If you do have bad infestations of perennials then there really is now way around it - cover and dig a small area properly. If you don't do this properly now then the changes are that you will be come another disheartened newbie who gives up half way through the first season. We have a half plot which we took on last year and worked mainly on an area 30x30ft. We cleared and weeded this thoroughly and it was really worth the effort. The other young couple who started at the same time as us dug it all over straight away. They did not remove the weeds and come summer they have given the plot up. We have now taken on a 2nd plot. It is seriously awful! 6ft brambles covered half the plot and it is full of bindweed and couch grass. At the end of last season we sprayed with glyphosphate and covered the plot. We now are at the stage where we are weeding through an area approx 30x30ft to use this season. The middle third will be rough dug over and planted with potatoes. The weeds will grow, but we are hoping that this will make it easier to remove the roots next season. The other 3rd will just stay covered! An allotment has to be a long term project as there is not a 'quick fix'.

[Thegoodlife]

 ??? ??? :-\ burn the lot or get rid of the stuff ,before i got mine allotment there was a massive pile of carpet and underlay and not forgetting what was on the garden so i cleared the lot and burnt it over a week i would say i had around a tonne of the eyesore.
any hoo, where the carpet and underlay was on the garden i tried to grow some veg and yep they didnot grow! or i got a poor yeild, this was down to the nasteys in the carpet and underlay.

my advise would be to give your local council a ring and when they are chipping all the old hedgerows use that as a mulch or just get boyfriend to get digging a bit of good old exercise ;D

[Robert_Brenchley]

A lot depends on what the underlay is. If it blocks light, then it can certainly have a legitimate rols as long as it's not releasig a load of nasty chemicals. Lazy beds based on cardboard etc. can have a role as well, without the underlay; don't leave it in place in areas you're using, except for those crops which do well growing through holes in it. Between the two methods, you can probalby grow most things this year, apart from long-term crops like asparagus. By next year, you should have killed off most of the weeds. It them becomes a matter of getting rid of the underlay, digging out any individual weeds which have survived, and preventing them from coming back. Be persistent and flexible, and you'll get there. But you're quite right, there's more to it than putting the underlay down and hoping.

[ACE]

Either stop being so lazy, or give the allotment to somebody who really wants it.

[wheelabo]

Hi.  I'm sorry I tend to agree :(  When you take on an allotment you take on the hard work that goes with it.  If you dont want to do it then dont have an allotment.  I have had to wait ages for mine and it could be due to the fact that people take them on but cannot be bothered once they have them. :(

[pg]

If you do decide to remove all or some of the underlay, may I suggest you don't chuck/burn it just yet. Why not use it to cover the compost heap created from all those weeds or bits of decaying vegetable you will create. It should help to keep the heap warm.

[springbok]

oh my.  And here I am that loves soil and getting my hands dirty with digging. 

Theres nothing like aching all over after a good day doing the garden.. and I cant get an allotment coz our area doesnt have them :(

I think you both should consider giving it to somebody else who really would like to use it for what its supposed to be.

[Amazin]

I disagree - you're obviously concerned. Keep the allotment.

Get rid of the boyfriend.

[Baccy Man]

My boyfriend and I have an allotment.  We got it in July, but were both lazy and didn't do anything over the winter, (which I now realise was a foolish idea).

He got a whole bunch of underlay from his brother-in-law who is a builder.  Apparently it's the kind that blocks out light but lets water in.  That's currently covering the WHOLE allotment, but has only been there a couple of weeks.

How many people read this properly before replying?
Yes it says underlay but if you read the post they are clearly describing weed control fabric they just used the wrong word. Carpet underlay is not mentioned anywhere it is just people who can't be bothered reading the post properly jumping to conclusions.
Yes they they should of started work on clearing the plot during the winter when they first got it that way it could of been ready for planting by now but they have realised their mistake & are trying to rectify it.
Instead of the usual welcome to the site & advice being offered the majority of people seem to be saying f*ck off you don't deserve an allotment. If I had got a similar response to my first question I don't think I would still be posting here.


Anyway onto the questions.

His plan is not to dig, not to use layers of newspaper/cardboard/straw/manure/compost/etc. like the no-dig websites and books say, but to just to put down manure under the underlay, and cut out holes in the underlay where he puts seedlings.

Firstly if you want a no-dig allotment you really do need to follow the advice given on no-dig methods it is not just a case of smothering the weeds you also need to feed & improve the soil as you go.

I'm sure that this will help get rid of weeds after a while, but I'm afraid that
a) this won't aerate the soil so things might have trouble establishing roots

The air will get through but to find out what condition your soil is in the easiest way is to dig over a small area. You may find it is good soil easy to cultivate & it just needs weeding. On the other hand you may find it is solid clay full of rubble, glass, old carpets/plastic sheets etc... in which case you will have to decide wether you want to put the effort into digging out all the rubbish or go for a no-dig method like lasgne beds for example.

b) the manure won't be with other things that will build up heat and aid breaking down so it will just sit on the top

The manure will break down & the worms will gradually dig it in for you some root vegetabls like carrots, parsnips etc... do not like manured soil & will fork if you grow them on parts of the plot with manure added although there is nothing wrong with them they will be a pain to peel. Other veg like potatoes, beans, squash, tomaroes etc.. are heavy feeders & will appreciate all the manure you can give them.

c) it will look like a MASSIVE eyesore and we'll get in trouble with the allotment association.

I agree completely weed control fabric does look awful in my opinion but its use is widely accepted on most allotments a quick look around the other plots on your site will tell you if it is in use there or not. I would use mulches comprised of whatever organic matter i could lay my hands on instead but it  is your plot so it is up to you what you use.

d) it won't actually let all the water in, and we'll flood the neighbours' allotments on either side.

It will allow water & air through it just blocks the light.

He says that this is to save time because he doesn't have the money or time to source lots of compost or hay or straw for the no-dig method OR the time to double dig the whole place. 

Is this a good method?  I have my doubts, but maybe someone will back him up on this.  Am I right in thinking this is a crazy idea?

ANY advice would be appreciated. Especially alternatives that wouldn't mean double-digging everything or spending a fortune on lots of compost! 

In some ways it is a good idea as the weed control fabric should kill off the annual weeds & inhibit the growth of the perennial weeds but there are much better ways to prepare your plot.
Before laying weed control fabric it is generally reccommended you at  least cut the weeds town to ground level.
It sounds to me like you are more interested in the allotment than your boyfriend is so why not make it clear to him that things will be done your way not his. Keep the weed control fabric down for the time being draw up a plan of how you want the plot laid out ie: where the paths will be what is going in each bed where the compost bins will be etc...
Get yourself to the plot as regularly as you can & get your paths marked out first. Only uncover a small area at a time so you can create a bed do not try to do too much in one go & take regular tea breaks you don't want to put your back out nor do you want to feel overwhelmed by it. By splitting it up into small jobs you accomplish a lot more. Make sure you finish each job before you start on the next thing As you will be able to clearly see what you have accomplished.
Get the beds dug over one at a time or if you are going down the no-dig route then layer the necessary materials on that bed. You don't have to double dig the beds unless you want to even if you did it should only be necessary to do it once as long as you don't walk all over the beds & compact the soil you don't have to repeat the process every year.
Potatoes are easy to grow & good for breaking up the soil so perhaps you could create a large bed full of them this year & that ground will be much easier to dig over next year.
As far as sourcing materials goes if you want straw you should be able to get it or at least find out where to get it from wherever your manure is coming from. Or let us know what area you are in & somebody is bound to know a supplier there.
You don't have to spend a fortune on compost you will just need a bit for starting seedlings this year, you will soon be making your own compost for use on the plot. All those weeds on your plot can be composted for a start. One of the members of this forum has put together a website which shows an extremely simple almost effortless way to make compost if you are unsure how to go about it. http://www.whitewisteria.co.uk/tasks/compost.php 

[Amazin]

Count 'em up, Baccy Man, most people offered positive helpful advice, and even you got personal about the boyfriend.

[Multiveg]

Is it your name or your bf's on the tenancy agreement?

[asbean]

And don't forget to take "before" "during" and "after" photographs. That way you can look back over the years and say - "I(we) did that".  :) :) :) :) :)