Author Topic: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE? (Read 16537 times)

Suzanne · « **Reply #20 on:** February 20, 2008, 20:28:38 »

Eloquent and well said.

kt. · « **Reply #21 on:** February 20, 2008, 20:48:00 »

Quote from: morton on February 20, 2008, 19:59:39

If the jails are so full why don't we take them at the top end who have committed the worst offences and simply execute them. That way there would always be. room at the bottom end for new arrivals.

If you decide to run for PM you have my vote ;D ;D ;D

Ceratonia · « **Reply #22 on:** February 20, 2008, 20:59:17 »

I regularly see a lady in her seventies using her bus pass to get a free trip into town (she doesn't drive). Always makes me smile to think that some small part of our taxes goes to subsidize that journey, because I know she has a net worth of at least two million pounds.

Pensioners are the richest group in our society by a long, long way - more than 80% of personal wealth in the UK is in the hands of the over-65s ( a third of the population), so to have the working poor pay more tax to provide a blanket subsidy to this group seems like a crazy policy to me - surely it has to be means tested?

Of course, the problem is that these figures hide huge differences and also that many pensioners wealth is tied up in they house they own - they may be "rich", but have only a small fixed income. The situation valmarg posted about must be quite common and very upsetting for the people concerned.

My father-in-law is in his seventies and ran 10 marathons in 10 days last year and claims to be fitter than when he served in the paras. Being 76 these days doesn't automatically make you frail or vulnerable and the magistrates wouldn't jail someone who had any kind of health problem.

In this particular case, which was about 18 months ago, I believe the local council in Norfolk pointed out in court that he could easily afford to pay, particularly as he had sold his story to the Daily Mail.

valmarg · « **Reply #23 on:** February 20, 2008, 21:28:49 »

Well ceratonia, there are two points I take issue with you.

1. The old biddy you quote taking her free bus trip into town.

Bus travel to the over sixties is free in England, which is wonderful if you have the luxury of a bus service. We don't. We can get an over 60's bus pass, but when there are no buses to use, what's the point??

2.'Pensioners are the richest group in our society by by long way'.

Not in this house they are not. We are struggling to make ends meed, using up all our savings to survive.

Get in the real world!!

valmarg

redimp · « **Reply #24 on:** February 20, 2008, 21:32:20 »

Quote from: Ceratonia on February 20, 2008, 20:59:17

I regularly see a lady in her seventies using her bus pass to get a free trip into town (she doesn't drive). Always makes me smile to think that some small part of our taxes goes to subsidize that journey, because I know she has a net worth of at least two million pounds.

Pensioners are the richest group in our society by a long, long way - more than 80% of personal wealth in the UK is in the hands of the over-65s ( a third of the population), so to have the working poor pay more tax to provide a blanket subsidy to this group seems like a crazy policy to me - surely it has to be means tested?

Of course, the problem is that these figures hide huge differences and also that many pensioners wealth is tied up in they house they own - they may be "rich", but have only a small fixed income. The situation valmarg posted about must be quite common and very upsetting for the people concerned.

My father-in-law is in his seventies and ran 10 marathons in 10 days last year and claims to be fitter than when he served in the paras. Being 76 these days doesn't automatically make you frail or vulnerable and the magistrates wouldn't jail someone who had any kind of health problem.

In this particular case, which was about 18 months ago, I believe the local council in Norfolk pointed out in court that he could easily afford to pay, particularly as he had sold his story to the Daily Mail.

Quote from: valmarg on February 20, 2008, 21:28:49

Well ceratonia, there are two points I take issue with you.

1. The old biddy you quote taking her free bus trip into town.

Bus travel to the over sixties is free in England, which is wonderful if you have the luxury of a bus service. We don't. We can get an over 60's bus pass, but when there are no buses to use, what's the point??

2.'Pensioners are the richest group in our society by by long way'.

Not in this house they are not. We are struggling to make ends meed, using up all our savings to survive.

Get in the real world!!

valmarg

Why are you always so offensive to people who disagree with you. I have resisted posting in this thread - in fact I have posted and deleted about three times. You have been really offensive to me in the past - a long time before I snapped at you which got me into trouble with Dan (I didn't reveal the history) I do really think you are an embittered old woman who reads the Mail far too much and believe every little bit of fascist hate that it spouts.

SamLouise · « **Reply #25 on:** February 20, 2008, 21:34:57 »

Ceratonia, I'm a little confuddled by your conclusion that owning one's house makes them rich. Of course it doesn't. I see what you are trying to say but it isn't realistic. We own our own home but we are FAR from rich. Should we sell it and become homeless, then yes, by today's standard of living, I guess we'd be rich but that's not the same thing, is it?

Also, I'd like to ask when pensioners claim their pensions, are they judged on a case by case basis to see how much they need? I ask this because every moocher who chooses not to go to work gets theirs judged that way and end up with a tidy sum to live on.

and lol @ the editing going on

redimp · « **Reply #26 on:** February 20, 2008, 21:37:09 »

But an old man rattling around alone in a 3-4 bedroomed house that he does not need is rich. And before anybody says it - I believe that Inheritance Tax (a tax on unearned income by those receiving it) is the fairest tax there is so do not tell me that they have a right to that hose so they can leave it to their kids who will just flog it to feather their own nest.

I live in a 2.5 bedroomed house. I have three children. I cannot afford to move. One of the causes of house inflation is the number of single people in houses they do not need. I also struggle to pay Band D Council Tax. Why should I subsidise a Band A payer who is a single pensioner in a large house?

saddad · « **Reply #27 on:** February 20, 2008, 21:37:54 »

Betty next door is 90 and has lived through a lot.. she's not rich but she's not poor.. I don't begrudge her a bus pass but the council tax is a real burden to her... even at 25%...
:(

SamLouise · « **Reply #28 on:** February 20, 2008, 21:42:14 »

Quote from: redclanger on February 20, 2008, 21:37:09

But an old man rattling around alone in a 3-4 bedroomed house that he does not need is rich. And before anybody says it - I believe that Inheritance Tax (a tax on unearned income by those receiving it) is the fairest tax there is so do not tell me that they have a right to that hose so they can leave it to their kids who will just flog it to feather their own nest.

I live in a 2.5 bedroomed house. I have three children. I cannot afford to move. One of the causes of house inflation is the number of single people in houses they do not need. I also struggle to pay Band D Council Tax. Why should I subsidise a Band A payer who is a single pensioner in a large house?

But how do you know what he's earnt all of his life to pay for that house? Just because you are stuck in a house you feel is too small and cannot afford to move doesn't mean he should forfeit his! He may have had a nicely paid, worked hard, had promotions, been the top of his league, allowing him to have that house and you can't just call him rich because he still chooses to live in it!

Aarrggh edit again. Also, we must remember that house prices were a whole different ball game back when he probably bought his. Assuming he hasn't just moved in or anything like that, his house probably cost him next to nothing in today's money market. When my parents bought their home from the council, it cost them something like £15,000 and then sold for .... well, I don't really need to say, do I?

redimp · « **Reply #29 on:** February 20, 2008, 21:49:24 »

He is capital rich if not cash rich (which he patently is) If you are capital rich and cash poor, you realise some of your capital so that you have cash. You do not expect people who are neither cash nor capital rich to subsidise you. I like the way people resent poor people on benefits but think it is perfectly all right for rich people to claim benefits.

SamLouise · « **Reply #30 on:** February 20, 2008, 21:54:10 »

I hope that wasn't aimed at me. I think people should only claim benefits when they REALLY have to and that is not what is happening in this country, which is why it's being drained the way it is.

Neither do I think the well off (and I wish I was one of them!) should expect to be penalised for making a good life for themselves. Where is that little ant and beetle story that was doing the rounds? Sums it up perfectly. But that's another topic and not for this thread. I could soapbox all day about it, but it's off topic.

jjt · « **Reply #31 on:** February 20, 2008, 22:53:15 »

suzanne is right about family values. If people made more effort to look after their own instead of expecting the state to do so things in general would be a lot better.

Amazin · « **Reply #32 on:** February 20, 2008, 23:04:50 »

It's a slogan for the 21st century:

MY right, YOUR responsibility!

Jeannine · « **Reply #33 on:** February 20, 2008, 23:07:36 »

Responsibility brings rights (hopefully soon)

Pesky Wabbit · « **Reply #34 on:** February 21, 2008, 01:03:02 »

Quote from: redclanger on February 20, 2008, 21:49:24

... capital rich if not cash rich ...

Is Richard Branson rich? I bet he hasn't got much in the bank. What about all the 'Dragons' - Should they get benifits ?

If I spent every penny on a large mansion, can I then claim I'm poor and claim benifits ?

Hyacinth · « **Reply #35 on:** February 21, 2008, 09:28:41 »

Reading this this morning and not wanting to 'flame' but to be fair, Ceratonia wrote:-

"Pensioners are the richest group in our society by a long, long way - more than 80% of personal wealth in the UK is in the hands of the over-65s ( a third of the population), so to have the working poor pay more tax to provide a blanket subsidy to this group seems like a crazy policy to me - surely it has to be means tested?

Of course, the problem is that these figures hide huge differences and also that many pensioners wealth is tied up in they house they own - they may be "rich", but have only a small fixed income. The situation valmarg posted about must be quite common and very upsetting for the people concerned."

...so I think that the comment about C. not living in the 'real world' is harsh - I find the whole post well-balanced and thoughtful if one takes it as a whole :-\

Old bird · « **Reply #36 on:** February 21, 2008, 09:49:54 »

Believe it or not Pesky Wabbit - Yes you can. It doesn't matter that you home is worth 1 million or whatever, if your income is non existent or very very small and you have a limited amount of savings - you can then get benefits of some sort or another!

I am due to be of pensionable age (58 now) in a couple of years time. I will not be able to afford to retire and will continue to work for as long as I am able. When I do have to retire I will probably have to sell my house and find a small flat or whatever ( I have a huge mortgage still) and then claim pension credit or whatever credit they have plus I will be given council tax exemption due to low income etc. This is by no means my fault. I am a single mother (my son is a graduate and now policeman) so no single mother jibes please! But I didn't have much earning power whilst he was a child - so was unable to build a savings scheme for retirement.

I am not at all bitter about what I am likely to receive. I will appreciate all that the country is prepared to give me and I will thank them at the time!!

Kea · « **Reply #37 on:** February 21, 2008, 13:01:50 »

Just an aside, i hope all the woman on here know that they are changing the age of retirement for woman. Old Bird has just mentioned she can officially receive a pension in two years time. As I'm younger mine will be 65 and some younger ones won't be getting it until even later.

Some old people get very attached to their homes it's the consistent thing in a fast changing world in which they see all their friends and older family members die and leave them. It's not surprising they are resistant to moving you can't really blame them it's not just a house it's all the memories of children and maybe a spouse that's gone. Also the physical ordeal of moving is not easy when you're younger just think what it must be like when you're elderly. So they struggle on trying to cope with all the bills for a house too big for them but the alternative is just as scary.

SMP1704 · « **Reply #38 on:** February 21, 2008, 13:16:48 »

Kea - well said

SamLouise · « **Reply #39 on:** February 21, 2008, 13:38:02 »

After I finished on here y'day, I started discussing this topic with my husband who put across RC's points with an alternative explanation which I have to say I mostly agreed with (d**n husbands, why do they have to be so clever? ;D) His explanation wasn't a way I'd looked at it before but it was right. Obviously it isn't the same for everybody, things do go wrong, as has been pointed out in this thread by two people already (VM & OB) and the government should allow for that. I still find myself bewildered by the resentment of benefits being given to OAPs when the other end of the generation gap receive all and sundry for what seems to be an unlimited amount of time simply because they don't want to work. How is that fair? Why isn't the public having a moan about that? Anyway, that's almost veering into another topic so I shall leave it there :)

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Author Topic: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE? (Read 16537 times)