Topic: The origin of vegetables

[Common_Clay]

This is a stupid question... but how did anyone ever find vegetables? I mean, you never walk past a wooded area and say "look at those runner beans!"... Ok, I know they're from South America, so maybe not... but what about other veg, surely there is some that originated from Britain - cabbage, maybe? Why do we never see anything growing wild?

[Clairylou]

When i go for walks along the pier and harbour at Tynemouth there are cabbages growing in the crevices of the rockface they are mostly green but also some reddish ones.  I always thought this was strange burt perhaps they have just always grown there.

Claire

[Eristic]

Turn the clock back a few thousand years and our diet would consist to a large extent of the weeds we spend hours ripping out of our allotments. Small clearings in the forest were used to grow various grains and there are still lots of wild berries to eat. Our very existence though would have depended on fish from the rivers, deer, pig, hare and virtually any bird including the eggs.

This of course makes a complete nonsense of vegetarian and vegan diets.

[Palustris]

There is a book by Edward Hyams called Plants in the Service of Man which tells the story of 10,000 years of plant 'domestication.' Very interesting reading.
The method for discovering the origins of vegatables is fascinating. You look for the place with the most different varieties of said Veg. So for example carrots probably originally came from Afghanistan area since that is where there is the largest number of varieties.

[saddad]

Some vegetables have been selectively bred beyond all recognition... most brassicas for example...
 8)

[David R]

Parsnips have not had a huge amount of improvement done, and the wild ones are recognisable. The wild ones dont have the fortune to grow in cultivated soils so are fairly small rooted but if they were grown on our lotties would do quite well.

I reckon most wild originals would probably do susprisingly well if grown in good fertile soil with their competitors ("weeds") removed.

 

[Froglegs]

Turn the clock back a few thousand years and our diet would consist to a large extent of the weeds we spend hours ripping out of our allotments. Small clearings in the forest were used to grow various grains and there are still lots of wild berries to eat. Our very existence though would have depended on fish from the rivers, deer, pig, hare and virtually any bird including the eggs.

This of course makes a complete nonsense of vegetarian and vegan diets.

Ray Mears looks well on it. ::) ;D ;D

[saddad]

They were only selected from the wild in Victorian times (Parsnips) "The Student" was the first I think...
 ;)

[Baaaaaaaa]

A bit of (nerdy) history ...

Once upon a time, many, many years ago, in a land far away... we were all hunter/gatherers and lived alone or in tiny groups. Then came the Neolithic Age (the New Stoneage), where we became farmers and started to live together in communities.

Gobeklitepe (the mound at Gobekli) in western Turkey (8,000 BC - that's 5000 years before Stonehenge was started). This place has the very first signs of substantial gatherings of humans (looks a bit like a Turkish Stonehenge).

Just north of here grew wild barley. There is evidence that it was this that the stoneage pepole took and farmed to feed the gatherings.

This is the earliest recorded cultivated crop. The barley that is cultivated worldwide  today is a direct descendant if this strain of wild barley.

Gobeklitepe - the site where man first changed from being a nomad into what we call civilized.

(enough nerdy bits for today)

[theothermarg]

one of the interesting things in the carol klein series (no not the ooosand ahhs)
was that she gave a bit of information about where "grass roots" of veg. cabbage is a coastal plant and on a recent visit to a beach on the south coast  I saw lots growing on the cliff face.if you look closely at your weeds you may be able to find out what family of plants they belong to! you will find that cultivated members of that family do well as the conditions are just right for it
sorry for writing this novel but it is one of my interests lol
marg

[saddad]

Vegetables in the garden plant series, Roger Phillips and Martyn Rix 1993 ISBN 0 333 62640 0 (Macmillan) is very good on origins and often shows photos of the ancestors. Most of the series have been remaindered now, I picked up "Herbs" for £4... instead of the original £17
 ;D

[redimp]

Turn the clock back a few thousand years and our diet would consist to a large extent of the weeds we spend hours ripping out of our allotments. Small clearings in the forest were used to grow various grains and there are still lots of wild berries to eat. Our very existence though would have depended on fish from the rivers, deer, pig, hare and virtually any bird including the eggs.

This of course makes a complete nonsense of vegetarian and vegan diets.

Why?  Just because we once had to eat meat does it make being vegetarian/vegan a nonsense.  We now have a choice and the choice not to eat intensively farmed animals because we don't have to, puts us above the savages that we once were when we had not learnt anything different.

[redimp]

Vegetables in the garden plant series, Roger Phillips and Martyn Rix 1993 ISBN 0 333 62640 0 (Macmillan) is very good on origins and often shows photos of the ancestors. Most of the series have been remaindered now, I picked up "Herbs" for £4... instead of the original £17
 ;D

Vegetables (Pan Garden Plant) (Paperback)
Is this a newer (1995 as opposed to 1993 ::)) edition of the book you have?

[Froglegs]

It's not only vegetables that have changed, but the domesticated animals we eat today.I don't think our ancestors would  know the animal i get my pork chops from or the veg on my plate to accompany it.

[Common_Clay]

Really interesting posts, glad I started the thread now although I was thinking it was a stupid question at first.

[Palustris]

One of the most interesting and thought provoking facts is that none of the modern ceral crops could survive without man. They have seeds which do not drop from the plant, but remain on it until collected and sown by us.
Corn has been domesticated for so long that there are no examples of a wild corn to be found in Southern America.

[Baaaaaaaa]

It's not only vegetables that have changed, but the domesticated animals we eat today.I don't think our ancestors would  know the animal i get my pork chops from or the veg on my plate to accompany it.

And that's without GM.

(Oh no, I think I've just opened a very large can of worms)

[saddad]

Just get some garlic and tomatoe sauce Baaa and the worms will go down quickly before anyone comments!
 ;D

[Rhubarb Thrasher]

if youi think about trading in prehistoric times it's easy to overlook how important seeds must have been. If you're scratching around growing wild cereals and someone turns up with some wheat seeds or boad bean, the difference in your chances of survival is tremendous. No wonder carrots turned up from Afghanistan

I think it's also true that a lot of leaf veg grew around the coast. The difficult conditions encouraged the development of thick leaves I suppose. The supertrendy veg at the moment is Sea Kale. One of the glossies had several pages of recipes earlier in the year, which was a waste of time. Normal people can't get hold of it, and if you find it growing wild, you can't pick it

[theothermarg]

going back to the first question, how does any animal know what food to eat, we are after all mammals !!Iread that the cattle and horses will ignore ragwort in their field if they have grown up with it there. we shift livestock around so much these days that if they don,t know it they will try it!! I, sure lots know more about this then old townie me so am prepared to be shot down  :-X
marg