Topic: To Snip or not to Snip

[selwyn-smith]

Now here is a question that my neighbour and I have been agonising over.

She has a male Lurcher who is just over a year old now.
He started to show signs of aggression with people about nine months ago.

He is absolutely lovely most of the time, and then for no reason that we can work out he will turn on someone, including herself and family, and complete strangers in the park. He will actually attack them and bite them.

She was advised by several vets ( from the same practice,) that castration would help, and was all set to take this action when....
a different vet said it all depends on what sort of aggression it is. If it's nervous aggression you could make matters worse.

This was all about six months ago, and since that time she has been living with a very unpredictable dog, and she just doesn't know what to do, as she really doesn't want to make matters worse.

If she knew for certain that castration would help then she would act, but what to do?

We have a feeling it is only a matter of time before her dog lands her in real trouble.

Any views on the matter would be gratefully received.
Katy

[grawrc]

Don't know how old the dog is or if there are other factors but I'd be tempted to take him to an obedience training class and get their advice.

Our vet told us to get Sophie (cocker spaniel) neutered when we got her (8 weeks). If we had she wouldn't have had 4 lovely pups one of which has ahd 5 lovely pups all of which are delighting folk all over the place.

Yes I know it's not the same problem, but we have had male dogs too: Ranger (GSD/Rottweiler cross) was a cruelty case and came castrated from SSPA: he was always aggressive to men in uniform because when he was left tied up to starve it was the police who rescued him so he associated them with his pain and starvation. Nugget (golden retriever) was a bit of a stud who took off every time a pregnant dog within 5 miles was in heat. The vet said get him castrated so we did. Didn't stop him wandering but he got very fat and lost all his joy in life.

[grotbag]

definately get him snipped,but do obedience classes as well.Its better for him to lose a few bits now,than maybe lose his life cos of biting.Calmed my boxer down.

[CityChick]

I'd agree with the 2nd vet.  It really does depend on exactly what is triggering the aggressive behaviour.  If it is sexually related, then it would help, but castration is not a cure all for all aggression problems.  If you say the dog is only about a year old, and the problem has been going on for 9 months, then this started when the dog was only 3 months old or so.  I'd be surprised if it was sexually related then.

Off the top of my head, I'm not sure why neutering would make a dog more aggressive.  A female dog yes, because you are taking away the female hormones, leaving more testosterone in her system making her potentially more aggressive.  Personally I would want to ask the first lot of vets exactly *why* they think castration could make matters worse.  (I've had a vet tell me my GSD was being dominant when she was jumping up.  But she is really the most scared thing going and was panicking ::))

I would suggest it is better to spend the money that might be spent on castration on going back to this 2nd vet and ask for a behaviour consultation, or if they don't do behaviour consultations, getting a referral to someone they work with and recommend with who does.  While it might look like the attacks are for no reason, an experienced person should be able to see some sort of pattern and explain what is going on.

BTW, you can also get a temporary "chemical castration", ie medication for the dog to take to mimic the effect of castration, to see if it would make a difference.

If this dog is already actually biting, as you say, this is a potentially very serious situation.  While the owner might be prepared to put up with it for whatever reason, if it bites a stranger it could end up in a prosecution under the dangerous dogs act which could lead to the dog being put down.  A simple way to avoid this is to use a muzzle whenever the dog is taken out.  A greyhound muzzle is perfect for any dogs with long pointy noses (I had to get one for my rather skinny GSD as she could get out of the typical basket type ones they sell at pet shops).

But I do think the key is getting some help from someone who is experienced in dealing with aggression problems, and recommended by someone trusted and respected.  A lot of obedience clubs give good advice, but I also know some that are awful and make aggression problems worse >:(

[Roy Bham UK]

I would go with the majority Vets and have him done, My daughter had a German Shepherd pup that got too boystruss and was a danger to the kids, the snip calmed him down no end.

We have a Cavalier that wanted it with everything living or otherwise, he was a rescued dog so if he wanted rescuing it was on our terms, it calmed him down, although the breeder was annoyed as she wanted to use him as a stud, but that's another story. :D

Nevertheless, our dog is part of the family and is loved to bits and he loves being here,  8)

P.S. Tee hee just looking at his picture in the avatar he looks like he may be thinking otherwise. ;D How cruel. :'( ;D

[DenBee]

Once upon a time we had two male dogs, and they would regularly fight to try and establish which one was the most dominant.  My OH refused to allow me to have them castrated (I think it's a male thing  ;) ), so in the end we had to give one away.  He went to live on a farm (honest, it's not just what we told my daughter  ;) ), and straight away started chasing sheep.  His new owner had him castrated, and he pretty much immediately calmed down and became a much more relaxed and obedient dog.

I'm a great advocate of sterilisation for any domestic pet that isn't going to be used for breeding.  Far too many unwanted cats and dogs in the world, living miserable existences.  But I also can't see why having a dog castrated would make him more aggressive.  And if it is nervous aggression, castration plus behaviour modification (training) would make for a positive change for him I would think.

[Tora]

I agree with the second vet too. It is very important to determine what kind of aggression it is.
My dog Eddie used to be very aggressive with people and dogs. He would just attack anybody who walks past him. His aggression was based on fears/nervousness.
He is 95% good with people and about 70% good with dogs now and it's not thanks to neutering. He is neutered and that might have calmed him down a little bit but not a great deal. I got him neutered because I wanted to prevent illness like prostate cancer and also unwanted puppies.
I have been working on him for 2 years now with clicker training. I can thoroughly recommend a book called 'Click to Calm' by Emma Parsons. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1890948209/203-7285556-6584762
I personally think attending obedience lessons can be tricky for an aggressive dog. It can make the condition even worse although I definitely recommend training at home where the dog can feel confident.
Also getting a good dog behaviourist is a good start.

[CityChick]

I personally think attending obedience lessons can be tricky for an aggressive dog. It can make the condition even worse although I definitely recommend training at home where the dog can feel confident.
Also getting a good dog behaviourist is a good start.

That is a very good point Tora.  In fact I would avoid like the plague any class that is okay with someone turning up to a group session with a dog that is known to be aggressive :o :o  I've run classes before - you just don't put a dog like that in a class situation.  Its not fair on them, and its not fair on everyone else in the class.

A good club or dog training school should ask a lot of questions about what is happening, and might be able to offer some one-to-one sessions first, to both assess the dog and also help the owner gain more control, using postive, non-confrontational training methods.  Or if not, they should be able to recommend someone who can.

The APDT is a good organisastion and they have a list of dog trainers on their website:

http://www.apdt.co.uk/list_trainers.asp

I just hope the owner does something soon - it sounds as if they've been struggling with the problem for some time already.  Its not easy living with an aggressive dog - I know, I've had 2.  But with the right help I'm sure they'll be able to turn things around and get owning a dog back to the fun it should be.

edited to add:

http://www.dogpages.org.uk/index.htm

is another website I'd recommend.  Although mainly about rehoming, they do have a section of their forum related to training which I think is very good.  Might be useful for info, or if you ask on there someone might be able to recommend a trainer or behaviourist in your area that can help...

[Tora]

I found my dog on Dog Rescue Pages, City Chick! :)

The training and behaviour section there is very helpful. I got loads of help there when I didn't know what to do.

Also there is a topic there that lists associations of behaviourists/trainers including APDThttp://www.dogpages.org.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=3576 :)

[CityChick]

Well, isn't the internet a small world ;D  I think they're a great site and I spent many hours there when we were looking for our latest dog!

[Tora]

Well, isn't the internet a small world ;D  I think they're a great site and I spent many hours there when we were looking for our latest dog!

Isn't it indeed! It really is a great site. Cannot recommend it enough! :)