Topic: Riddling loads of soil

[Palustris]

How I made a large riddle to sieve lots of soil.

All measurements are in Imperial because I have not yet mastered metric. And they are approximate since I used what was at hand.
Using 1.5 in by 1in roofing lath timber I constructed a rectangle of 5 feet by 3 feet. The corners were butt jointed and strengthened with corner brackets. (This size was made because that was the size of piece of chicken wire I had available.)
I stapled a sheet of 1/2 in chicken wire stretched tightly to the frame. To give more stability and to stop the mesh sagging I also stretched straining wire every foot across and down, woven through the mesh.
Then I fastened legs of same size timber to the top of the frame so that it sloped about 60 degrees. (Need to experiment to find best angle). When in use I also used a couple of tent pegs to stop the frame moving backwards when soil was thrown at it.
Dry (and it needs to be dry) soil is thrown (not too hard) at the top third of the frame. As it trickles down larger than wanted pieces stay on one side and smaller pieces go through.
If you wanted a more robust and longer lasting gadget than you could use the wire mesh sold for outside aviaries.
The angle of the legs should be such that the soil trickles down and breaks up as it goes, too shallow and it sticks, too steep and it falls off.
This does not work on wet or clay soil. Sorry, but then neither does the old fashioned garden sieve. Either way it is stii hard work, But at least you do not have the weight of the soil to lift as in a conventional system.
Now watch the experts come up with a better idea.
Photos not available, this film was lost be developers, before digtal too.

[flowerbaby_uk]

Thanks for posting this Eric I will most certainly be giving this riddle a go and appreciate your kindness in sharing  :)

regards flower

[Mimi]

Thank you very much Eric.  You are a real sweety and have saved me hours and hours of grinding backache once i get the soil broken up.  Have a big suss :-*

[Garden Manager]

I have lost track of the backbreaking hours i hace spent sieving my stony soil, either to get a fine tilth for grass seed sowing or to extract the stones for hardcore.  I have always used a standard metal seive for the work, placed over a wheel barrow and shaken vigorously. At times i wondered why I did it and whether there was a beter way.

In fact Erics design reminded ne of a section in an old gardening book i have that was my grandfathers' printed back in the 1930's. This shows a similar construction, which was placed at an angle and soil thrown at it with a spade. The Idea being the soil went through and piled up on the other side  with the stones remaining on your side.  

I thought this is all very well but would only work on certain soils (probably a sandy one with gravel mixed in), but not on my chalky clay (marl) since it woult be too lumpy to go through the netting.

This just shows that sometimes the old Ideas are the best doesnt it?

[aquilegia]

I got all excited and then I read...

This does not work on wet or clay soil.

>:( blooming clay again. grr.

I shall have to stick with my large plastic box with holes drilled in the bottom and my strong and patient hubby!

[Tenuse]

When would you want to riddle soil? Is digging it over not enough?

Ten x

[Mimi]

When the soil is so bad not even a mattock will break through it and you have to pay for a man with a digger to break up the ground.  Then hopefully you can sort out the whear from the chaff ;)

[Palustris]

When the soil is full of broken glass, scrap metal and weed roots like hawsers then you need to riddle it.
And for Aquilegia, if your soil will go through a large box with holes in it, then it would go through this sieve.
Richard I never claimed it was original, only most people do not have access to old books (or old gardeners).
And finally my soil is a fine silt, in places and boulder clay of the worst kind in others, all of it went through and got mixed together.

[Garden Manager]

No i know you didnt clain to have invented it or anything Eric, i just thought i'd mention it thats all.

I find some of the older techniques interesting. Not that i'd like to have to use some of them mind. We have progressed for the better in some areas of gardening i think.

[Hugh_Jones]

I constructed a similar contraption 50 years ago, using an angle-iron bed frame, with its original diamond mesh wires covered with chicken wire.  After wearing out a roll of chicken wire I substituted small gauge reinforcing mesh, which lasted for several years.  In the end I equipped it with two wheels from worn out wheelbarrows and now use it as a garden truck.

[Tenuse]

Hmm well my soil is heavy wet clay full of "roots like hawsers" I don't think it will go through a riddle - did find one in the shed we pulled down though so might give it a go if it gets a bit drier.

Ten x

[Garden Manager]

While we are on the subject folks, can anyone give me a really good reason for riddling soil? Apart from getting rid of roots and rubbish?

In many soils stones can be beneficial, as they retain moisture and open up the soil structure (at least chalk and flint stones do).

Any other good reasons you can think of?

[jethro]

I only riddle the soil for the geenhouse which i grow carrots in, this stops them from forking. The soil in the lottie just gets manure and turned over, raked and that's it   ;D .

[Hugh_Jones]

Stones certainly are NOT beneficial when they are polished pebbles and represent more than 10% of the soil volume (in my garden they originally represented over 50%).  Apart from reducing the proportion of productive soil available, they also cause carrots and parsnips to fork, make the preparation of a fine tilth seed bed virtually impossible, and make both digging and hoeing a difficult business.

[Garden Manager]

Yes hugh i know too many is not good. I have battled for years to to grow carrot on my soil without sucess, so i do know the downsides of stones in the soil. That and trying to dig planting holes and hiting large lumps of flint instead of soil!

I was merely observing that on some soils a FEW stones can help keep the soil structure open.

I have in the past tried replacing areas of stony soil with riddled material, and while it looked nice, the structure didnt last. It soon became more compacted and drier than areas where stones had not been removed. This said i am considering riddled soil in a last ditch atempt to grow carrots sucessfully.

Perhaps stones are a good case in favour of NO DIG. after all. I have found where I do not have to regularly dig the stones sunk gradualy down through the soil leaving the top layers relatively stone free.  This seems to have been the case in my raised veg beds where digging is in fact minimal.

[Mimi]

Richard,While I appreciate that yes, a few stones do keep the soil structure open,as i posted earlier, my soil is almost undigable it is so solid with stones.  We had been discussing this in the chat room(yes we do occasionally chat about garden stuff :)) This posting from Mr Marsh was in answer to my rather stoney dilema.   You may also notice on his posting that he suggests using 1/2 inch chicken wire, I am sure that some stones will get through that.

[Hugh_Jones]

And, of course, Mimi. there is absolutely no way whatever that putting soil through a 3/4 inch riddle will damage the crumb structure of the soil, neither will the removal of excess stones.

The crumb structure of soil is essentially a physical phenomenon associated with the physical properties of atoms and molecules and depends on the presence of the electrolitical attraction by which fine particles of matter and water can be so associated with one another as to form colloids in which the water and soilds do not readily part with each other.  These colloids, in their turn, adhere to each other to form the soil `crumbs` which are essential to fertility. Calcium will increase the electrolitic attraction between particles in most soils. Other elements and substances - notably those derived from nitrogenous based proteins of fibrous tissue of plants or animals will increase the number of colloid forming particles to a marked degree.  However, stones, whether they be pebbles, flints, lumps of granite or whatever play absolutely no part in this.

Stones do, as Richard has noticed, frequently retain a thin film of moisture on their undersides in hot dry weather, but this does not contribute in any way to crumb structure although a sufficient quantity will help retain some moisture in poor dry soils.  If you remove the stones from poor dry soil, you will inevitably end up with drier soil, as Richard obviously did, but the crumb structure will remain the same, and if it was poor afterwards, then it was clearly poor beforehand, in which case the blindingly obvious answer is not to keep the stones for their dubious minor benefits, but to increase the colloidal properties of the soil by the addition of humus forming substances.

I hope this satisifies any doubts that may have been raised by Richard`s comments.

[SueT]

Is there no end to your talents Hugh?  :D

[Mrs Ava]

Cor hugh, you's sexy when you instruct!   ::)

[Colin_Bellamy-Wood]

An interesting alternative design to those suggested is one that I have seen on Time Team archeological digs on Channel 4, where, if my memory serves me, the riddle is suspended on ropes.   The objective here is to retrieve the flint stone tools, or shards of pottery, and to get rid of the soil !