Topic: who is organic.

[northener]

Hmm interesting stuff. Its my 1st year with the plot and i intended being organic, keep chckens to use poo as fertiliser, don't use slug pellits, no weedkiller just digging and handballing them out and i was hoping no pest sprays. At the weekend  50+ cabbages were covered with cloudy aphid it was either treat with pest spray or chuck em. I decided to spray and feel a bit gutted but at least i'll be eating cabbage from the allotment. Next year i'll cover with fleece hoping to prevent it.

[markyb23]

Hi all,
          I'm trying to be totally organic.I'm trying to attract beneficial insects and predators so I'm giving the slug pellets a miss.
  I have to admit that slugs are about the biggest pest that I encounter on my allotment.
  I think It was gavin that mentioned about "sacrificials".I'm trying to use this policy at the moment.So,the slugs can have some,so long as they leave some for me.
  I'm also trying to grow varieties that the slugs aren't too keen on.
 So far,my favourite slug resistant varieties are:-Lettuces-Marvel Of The Four Seasons,Lobjoits Green Cos,Lollo Rossa.
 Potatoes-Sharpe's Express,Concorde,Red Duke Of York.
   If anyone knows of any other relatively slug resistant vegetables,I would love to hear about them.
  Although I'm trying to be organic,I think that It's up to each individual to do whatever suits them.
      All The Best-Marky. :)

[ina]

Within the boundaries of permitted stuff of course, otherwise people would still be using DDT. After all, we do share the environment.

[markyb23]

Quite right Ina,
                         I think you should just follow your conscience.
           All The Best-Marky :)

[philcooper]

...... At the weekend  50+ cabbages were covered with cloudy aphid it was either treat with pest spray or chuck em. I decided to spray and feel a bit gutted but at least i'll be eating cabbage from the allotment........

NL,

If you give the aphids a good hard spray of soap solution (not detergent - soap flakes, 2oz to 2galls of water), followed by another 30 mins later that will see em off and it doesn't get chemicals into the plant

Phil

[terrace max]

that will see em off and it doesn't get chemicals into the plant

...or your tap water...

[Justy]

I think it all comes down to why you want to grow your own veg.  If it is to make sure that there aren't any nasties on your food then go organic but if that was my reason I would not put anything at all on the crops, no bordeaux, derris or even soap - how many chemicals are in that?!  I have been eating non organic foods for 34 years so full of chemicals anyway.  The other reason may be to do with freshness and the ethics of not shipping food halfway round the world before it is eaten.

I think on balance it is the freshness, combined with the exercise it gives me closely followed by chemicals.  Therefore if needs must I will spray (touch wood not needed to do anything yet) but I will certainly not stop using tap water!

[terrace max]

bordeaux, derris or even soap - how many chemicals are in that?! 

I think they are allowable under organic standards, with discretion, because the chemicals they contain don't persist in the environment...

I think the benefits you mention of freshness in your crops & exercise are a bit meaningless if you don't have a safe, clean environment... Different ends of the same stick, so to speak...

[Justy]

probably didn't make myself clear - I personally don't use any sprays on my food crops however not using chemicals is not everyones main reason for growing their own. (I think that double negative works!  :))

[londonfarming]

) but I will certainly not stop using tap water!

so what will happenned if the water bill goes up the roof?would you stop growing?or will you pay the bill.?

[northener]

Phil, the leaves were absolutely covered with aphids, on the outer leaves you could see more aphids then leaf. Would soap still have worked?

[Robert_Brenchley]

Soap, rhubarb tea. anything which kills insects. They're quite vulnerable, and I've killed loads with detergent sprays, before I realised that the tits would get them without my assistance.

[philcooper]

Northener,

The soap solution does 2 things:

It loosens their grip on the plant - that's why 2 goes is recommended
It dissolves their skin, through which they breathe and so suffocates them

Phil

[northener]

Nice. Where do you buy soap flakes?

[Kepouros]

The trouble is that (as Professor C.E.M.Joad used to say on The Brains Trust) "It all depends on what you mean by Organic".   Literally, of course, this simply means using only materials derived from living organisms (or their corpses). The question of whether or not any inorganic chemicals you would like to use persist in the environment is neither here nor there - inorganic cannot be organic.
I mainly grow as organically as I reasonably can, which means that I use bone meal, dried blood, hoof & horn meal, animal and poultry manures, brews from various plants, etc.  However, I have no idea what the animals or poultry whose manure I use were fed on or had injected into them, so in the true meaning of the word I do not grow organically. In addition (like many people on this site) I add shredded newspapers and cardboard to my compost heap and dig newspapers into my vegetable beds, and as both of these materials have inorganic chemicals of one sort or another added during their processing or printing this puts me even further beyond the pale.

Bordeau mixture is composed entirely of inorganic chemicals and some chemicals go into virtually all soaps, so (whatever the HDRA say) nobody using them is entitled to claim to be growing organically. Again, I use them, so that puts me even further still beyond the pale.

But then, on these considerations, I suspect that there are very few truly organic growers on this site.

It all depends on what you mean by organic

[londonfarming]

[quote author=Kepouros

But then, on these considerations, I suspect that there are very few truly organic growers on this site.

It all depends on what you mean by organic

i was reffering to a soil assiociation standard certificat.
i myself far more extremist in my way of growing than them.but i think they are a good example to follow for a start. i think that living in the city ,we have to make more effort to help our environment than the grower who live in the countryside. use of tape water to growth radish, is not acceptable.
i think that they is a lots of organic grower on this site,or at least a lots of them who want to be more organic.This is why i ask to have a organic topic. on this site .i have been shut up.

[northener]

Been shut up?????????????????

[londonfarming]

Been shut up?????????????????

.
i  felt like it.on sugestion to the site, to have an organic section.

[derbex]

I think you'll find there's lots of discussion on Organic growing here, most of it in the appropriate place e.g. pesticides in the pests and diseases bit.

Can't say I'm terribly interested in the SA definition of organic when it comes to growing my own veg -for starters I don't know what was done on my plot or in my garden before I got to it, so I think would have had to 'fallow' it for a period of years before growing anything on them. Other points about compost, bordeaux, soap have been made above.

As to watering I use tap where appropriate -all there is at the allotment as I don't have a shed -even if there was you'd need a heck of a tank to store enough water to be of any use- and there's no ditch. Have to use cans as there's no taps -just troughs. The main thing is to only water when necessary, I'm establishing fruit trees and bushes this year so that means more than normal, but next year they should fend for themselves. Other than that most things (except squash) really only get water when they're wilting (i.e. too late). The greenhouse needs water, tap for the toms, water butt (when there's anything in them) for everything else. That said I want a big tank to catch water off the house roof (just g/house and garage at the mo), and may try and rig up a raincatcher at the allotment -save my back if nothing else..


Jeremy

[northener]

I think we've had a good debate, can't see where youv'e been shut. Like Derbex says organic ways are always discussed on here.