Allotments 4 All

this is the email contact for richard harries, the archbishop of oxford. if anyone from here feels inclined to email him re our lotties (see post Portable lottie) I would be very grateful.

Briefly: We are squatting cos till 2wks ago we didn't know who owned land - first ccontact with owners (church) was when land agent told us to get off cos the church doesn't want lotties there they want to develop it.
Been emailing all over but today carter jonas, land agent put notice up admitting they are in charge of lottie, and when i spoke to them they said I was trespassing by putting up a sign (on public path I think) saying SAVE our allotment - now they won't tell me what they want to do with land. We would like some security of tenure, even a year on year lease till they finallly get planning permission to ruin the land (don;t think it is even in). Harangue the Bishop please!!! I've been in contact with Ian James, helen james at the glebe committee and uncle tom cobley and all!

http://www.oxford.anglican.org/contact.php?id=18

Hi,

Just sent him an e-mail as a fellow allotmenteer asking him to use his influence to maintain this vital facility within the community - well words to that general effect anyway!

Hope it helps. Have you spoken to local press/radio/MP?
Good luck.
Caz

As a fellow resident of Oxford (and renter of an allotment in Oxford!), I'm more than happy to send an email too, but could someone help me with wording? Want to help, but have no idea what to say  :-[ ???

this is a fantastic board! I work for the press in Oxford and we are doing a story this week on it - my colleague wants to put it on the front page, but until they bring in the bulldozers or start trashing our lotties we'll hold off. thanks for your help

My suggested words would be something like:
As an allotment holder in ?? I would be grateful if you could use your influence to prevent development of land in skimmingdish lane, bicester. It is believed this allotment has been there for many years and with the renewed interest in the environment and organic gardening, it could be a real asset to the church locally, rather than becoming another identikit business estate - of which Bicester already has many!
The town council has no allotment space so it could surely become viable allotment space once again for those of us with green fingers, and would surely help the church's environmental strategy more than selling green land for building?

it's not what I wrote, in fact I think it sounds better than my mad ramblings to him earlier. I'd appreciate a note on here to say you have emailed so I can try to gauge how many he gets!!

Fat Larry

just done it mate, hope it works.

Me too F.L  Best of luck. ;)

Hi Larry,

This is the wording from the email I just sent,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Dear Sir,

As a relative newcomer to allotment gardening I would like to add my voice to those calling for sensitive development of land in Skimmingdish lane, Bicester.

As you may know, members of your community are seeking to obtain security of tenure on land for allotments at least from planting season to harvest time. There is a proven need for this in the area which lacks sufficient provision whereby people might provide themselves and their families with a healthy lifestyle raising food and flowers whilst protecting the local environment for future generations.

So what has this to do with me in Norwich and you as a busy Archbishop in Oxfordshire? I feel that if insensitive development goes ahead in this area then my own small plot (like many others I have no garden or outdoor space at home) is equally at risk at any time in the future. I fear a domino effect and the destruction of my plot too. I know that the people in Bicester are living with the day to day burden of these fears becoming reality. Simply - if a sense of community is lost in one area of the country then my own community is weakened too.

Please, as a matter of urgency find time in your busy schedule to acquaint yourself with the facts of this case and discuss these concerns with your colleagues. I am sure that there is nothing here against the Churches environmental and social policies and that the needs of your community can be addressed.

yours sincerely,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I hope it meets your needs,

Best of luck, Col

and me

MM

here we go i have done my best sorry if it is a bit rubbish and the same as any one else
hope it works

As an allotment holder in Preston, I would be grateful if you could use your influence to prevent development of land in skimmingdish lane, bicester. It is believed this allotment has been there for many years and with the renewed interest in the environment and organic gardening, it could be a real asset to the church locally, rather than becoming another identikit business estate - of which Bicester already has many!
The town council has no allotment space so it could surely become viable allotment space once again for those of us with green fingers, and would surely help the church's environmental strategy more than selling green land for building?
i am looking forwad to your reply
Matthew Greenhalgh
Preston lancashire

Shamelessly plagiarised and adapted from the above:

"Your Grace
As an allotment holder in Somerset (and former resident of Oxfordshire), I should be grateful if you could use your influence to prevent development of land in Skimmingdish Lane, Bicester which, I understand, has been in use as allotments for many years, but is now under threat.

As you will know, members of that community are seeking to obtain security of tenure on land for allotments at least from planting season to harvest time. There is a proven need for this in the area which lacks sufficient provision whereby people might provide themselves and their families with a healthy lifestyle raising food and flowers whilst protecting the local environment for future generations.

You may wonder what has this to do with me in Somerset?  As an allotment holder, I feel that if insensitive development goes ahead in your area then my own small plot is equally at risk at any time in the future. I fear a domino effect and the destruction of my plot too. I know that the people in Bicester are living with the day to day burden of these fears becoming reality. Simply - if a sense of community is lost in one area of the country then my own community is weakened too.

My own Church owns a small piece of land in our village that is used for allotments.  They have repeatedly turned down considerable offers from developers wishing to build on this land - and have stated that they will continue to do so.  They realise that the allotments provide an additional sense of community in addition to that provided by the Church itself.

Please, as a matter of urgency find time in your busy schedule to acquaint yourself with the facts of this case and discuss these concerns with your colleagues. I am sure that there is nothing here against the Church's environmental and social policies and that the needs of your community can be addressed.

Yours sincerely"

Hope it helps

Mostly copied what you suggested Larry, and have sent it.

Good luck!

THANK YOU to all who have pestered the bishop so far!

My neighbour who is a policeman, and the council, say carter jonas have no right to tear down my save the allotments poster, let alone threaten me with trespass.

so more posters will go up on the public footpath to the lottie.

I'm doing a story on it in this week's oxford journal and courier so anyone in the area look out for it, and i've writtten to cleve west, the gardening columnist at the indy.

if anyone else knows any emails of high profile gardening fans, i would love to write to them too!

THANKS again, it brought a tear to my eye reading some of your posts, it is really kind of you.
fat larry

Larry - this is quite disgraceful!! Have sent e-mail to the Bishop as you suggested. I do hope common sense prevails and wish you all the very best. Keep fighting the good fight!

Wendy

sent a copy of the above messages to the bishop and added that the sense of community that an allotment brings is more vibrant and vital than anything I ever expereinced ina church community......it is time to save the vineyard that christ would have been proud to pray in.......

I hope that the material greed of the church does not win over to developers....even if you may have to pay a higher lottie rent...

sadly, I've just had a realisation. I spoke to richard thomas today, who is richard harries (bish of oxford) Pr person. he wasn;t friendly. now I wonder if he opens the bish's emails, and might then of course not forward them to him. I'm not saying stop, I'm just a bit disheartened that's all

Quote from: fat larry on April 20, 2005, 20:55:22
sadly, I've just had a realisation. I spoke to richard thomas today, who is richard harries (bish of oxford) Pr person. he wasn;t friendly. now I wonder if he opens the bish's emails, and might then of course not forward them to him. I'm not saying stop, I'm just a bit disheartened that's all

Don't worry - the Bishop will read the e-mails - to intercept someone's e-mails and not forward them is illegal, his PR chap won't risk doing that.  Anyway, if I don't get a response within a week then I shall write again, and write by snail mail if necessary.  If still no response, I'll ring.  Also, if it's in the papers, it will come to his attention.  The Bishop will find out.

Add another, just just emailed.

Good luck with the campaign hope everything works out for you and all the others who have worked so hard, and have had so much pleasure.
May you all continue

Ron

Just sent this....
Your Grace,

As an allotment holder in Sussex (and former Oxford resident and parishener)
I would be grateful if you could use your influence to re-examine the proposed development of land in Skimmingdish Lane, Bicester.

Allotments are an important part of society - just as the church is!

It is my understanding that this allotment has been there for many years and with the renewed interest in the environment and organic vegetables and fruit, it could be a real asset to the church locally as a centre for community gardening. Perhaps a focus for harvest festival?

The town council has no allotment space so it could surely become viable allotment space once again?
Perhaps this would help the church's environmental strategy more than selling green spaces for building?

Regards,

GOOD LUCK!!!!

thanks all, and wivvies for the bit about the emails. I might print off this list and send it with a snail mail letter confidential to the bish too, to be on the safe side.
the town council emailed me today to say they will discuss it at their meeting on may 16 - so I will be there. Friends of the earth are supportive, as are bicester historical society - who somehow knew of this thread (more gardeners??) - and I would like to thank them too for all their efforts. I took out four bicester history books from the library with loads of pix in em hoping to find a single pic of our lottie, but no good ... oh well.
does anyone know, if they haven't put a planning application in, can they go in there and clear the land, or does that count as change of use ... and if they do that, is there anything we can do.
they also tore down my poster and threatened me with trespass, but if it is on the border fencing that's part of the highway isn't it?, and up to the council to get upset about, not them ... there's a public path that runs alongside and round it, that is signposted and well used.

I would try for free legal advice - perhaps your CAB?

another good idea, but I think we are mostly appealing to their better natures, rather than any particularly firm legal grounding. however they might be helpful if they can dig up some legal stuff, squatters' rights maybe?

I have also sent an e-mail Larry.
Good luck

i have checked my emails again to day and not a sausage :'(

fat lal-i sent this-(i am no writer!) ....
.dear sir,
i would ask that you save the skimmingdish lane allotment site from the developers-the church is supposed to look after the welfare of its community and gardening,to some people-especially allotmenteers ,is vital to their well being as well as enriching the locality and cheering downhearted souls.
allotments are healthier for people than housing estates.....
please do not sell this land to housing developers,
thank you
etc etc....

more posters and more newspaper noise!
telly-especially local telly is always interested in a fight too!
power to the people!
kitty ;D

Hi fat larry - would this planning stuff help? http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_planning/documents/page/odpm_plan_606902.hcsp

All best - Gavin

PS I've sent my e-mail too :)

RESPONSE FROM THE BISHOP: Not very helpful!!
27 April 2005

Thank you for your recent email about the possible development of land adjacent to Skimmingdish Lane, Bicester.  This land belongs to the Diocese of Oxford as part of its 'Glebe'.  In the past it was let to allotment holders, but since April 2000 there have been no allotment holders, except for one allotment which was let between May 2002 and September 2004.  We understand that there may currently be people who are using this land without permission or rent:  they are effectively 'squatting'.

Cherwell District Council previously considered this land suitable for employment use with the adopted land plan and therefore the Board have decided formally to explore this designation.

+Richard OXON

Yep, I got exactly the same thing! How disappointing!  >:( >:(

I'm really sorry about that  :'(  However, if anyone has got any other avenues to explore it's this bunch that will think of them.

I got the same email.  >:(

Have you checked out that there are no rare species on the lottie?
All you need are some rare orchids or a great crested newt and it would slow the developers down no end.

Can't you get a large environmental group interested????

My response, for what it is worth:

"Your Grace

Thank you for your response in connection with the allotments at Skimmingdish Lane, Bicester.  I note the comments that you have made, but there are a number of matters arising from this which I would like to raise.

Firstly, the fact that there have been no allotment holders since April 2000.  Forgive my scepticism, but surely if the Diocese is employing Carter Jonas as land agents (at a not insignificant cost), shouldn’t they be advertising the availability of the allotments in an attempt to find tenants? A more cynical man than I might suggest that they did not want to do so because they wanted to either sell off the land or develop it for profit.  A far more cynical man than I might suggest that the Diocese had instructed them to do so, although I am sure that you will be able to confirm that this is not the case.

Secondly, the question of the “squatters”.  I understand that these individuals attempted to find out who owned and managed the site.  They were advised "by the sole tenant" that “no-one ever bothered to collect rents, but if someone official came around and asked, that would be alright”.  Once again, I would question Carter Jonas’ role in this.  Would you agree that it appears they have been somewhat lackadaisical, if not negligent, in how they have managed the Diocese’s land?  I also understand that the “squatters”, once they had been able to ascertain the identity of the land agents, have attempted to pay rents but these have been refused.

I note that you state that “Cherwell District Council previously considered this land suitable for employment use with the adopted land plan and therefore the Board have decided formally to explore this designation.”  It appears to me that such investigation would take some months, unless you are able to advise me that matters are very much advanced.  If my assumption is correct, is there any harm in drawing up short term tenancy agreements with these individuals whilst the matter is explored?  Indeed, if sufficient interest in using the land for it’s currently designated purpose, ie allotments, can be shown, would you agree with me that this would be a much better use for the land - although significantly less financially profitable?

Christ regularly used the metaphor of agriculture in His teachings, whilst rejecting materialism.  Surely it would be the Christian thing in this instance to follow His example and adopt the less financially profitable yet more spiritually profitable option?

Yours sincerely"

I had the same reply too. Just let us know if there is anything else we can do.

What about people coming from all over the UK to protest one weekend? Get the media involved etc. There's a great national representation of allotment holders on this site.... I'm up for it...
Caz

By no means as well worded as wivvles reply (marvellous!) but here was my effort:

'Thank you for your response in connection with the allotments at
Skimmingdish Lane, Bicester.

In response to the 'squatters' you mention, I would like to add that
it is my understanding that these 'squatters' would be willing pay
rent, and indeed have attempted to pay rent to the land managers, but
this has been refused.

I am disappointed that the church seems to be taking a path of
commercialism rather than making an effort to keep these allotments,
which would allow the users to greatly benefit theirselves and their
families by allowing them more exercise, to eat fresh chemical free
food, and educate their children about healthy food and nature.'

I'd be there for a protest  :) (not very far for me to drive :) )

THANKS folks! Very impressive. I'd love a demo there, we'll have to look into that. My neighbour the policeman has already said he's up for it (!!!) and bob, the retired policeman who is a fellow squatter would I'm sure be happy too! I've replied to the bish too, again not as eloquent â€" or as hard hitting â€" as others, but here's what I wrote:

Dear Richard

As yet no planning application has been made to Cherwell District Council, and I would like to know if it would be possible to continue cultivating there until such a decision is made and development is imminent.

I don't see that our presence there harms anyone at all â€" and we are willing to pay rent as per previous tenants, and be tied into a year-on-year lease agreement similar to the one Carter Jonas does with people living on the river, for British Waterways, I believe.

However, ideally we would like the land to stay as an allotment.

I have sought advice from a carbon sequestration officer who confirms that allotment land is much more carbon friendly than development â€" in line with the church's own environment policy. (I can send you a copy of his email)

I also have support from the local friends of the earth and the National Society of Allotment and Leisure Gardeners, and aim to raise the matter with Bicester Town Council as there are no vacant plots elsewhere in the town, and I was rather hopeful that they could be able to effect some kind of deal with you.

We hope to get the local PCT on board as gardening and allotments are known to be good for mental and physical health â€" a fact supported by the mental health foundation (I can send you a long leaflet on the subject if you wish further evidence).

I am also not sure that the land is still considered suitable for employment use â€" a few days ago I heard that after the nearby airfield was saved from development  the idea was now to use the land nearby for leisure purposes ... surely an allotment/wildlife reserve would fit that bill perfectly and be in line with the church's own environmental aims?

Lawrence Webb

What about trying to get in touch with people like Alan Titchmarsh or any of the gardening celebs to hike up the profile?

Caz

i havent received a reply-but as my opinion of the  human race as a species is at an all time low.....i am probably not the person to email anyone again......
if people dont start behaving in a humane way-especially the so-called 'christian' ones then i for one ,will have nothing more to do with them,......
grumpy kitty
sorry..
think i'm just in a bad mood...... :( >:(

i'd love to get in touch with titch, but don't have a contact. :'(

Hi all,

I received the same mail.

With a little web searching I came up with this,

http://www.oxford.anglican.org/

Or for those on dial-up, this..

http://www.oxford.anglican.org/category.php?c=98

From their "eco-column" "In Genesis 2:15 we are commanded to 'work and keep' the earth."

There is a huge amount on their website which I will study and hopefully arrive at a response as eloquent as Wivvles.

Best of luck to the Diggers of Oxfordshire,

Col

Fat Larry, it might be worth contacting his Agent.  you never know, something might get through to him.  If you go to his website www.alantitchmarsh.com their details are there.

Or how about the Gardener's World team - 2 angles with that as it is run by the bbc - you never know it might be of interest to the national news.

Worth a thought  ;D

Hiya, Just looked for Titchmarsh and you can contact him via his website which is www.alantitchmarsh.com - it says he doesn't answer all letters about gardening but maybe something like this would be different?

Also it looks like Monty Don could be a good one - he is the president of the Arrow Valley Res Assoc in Herefordshire (www.avra.uk.com) according to info on the www, so perhaps try contacting him? He's obviously not averse to a bit of wrangling with the authorities...

Hope it helps,
Caz

Well Caz, it seems great minds think alike - or maybe we both just have silly ideas!!!  Who knows  ;D

Definitely Great Minds!! ;D

The Gardeners World idea is a great idea. Just looked on the bbc.co.uk website and they encourage Neighbourhood Gardens etc. so they could well be interested in something like this...

thanks guys, I sent an email to alan titchmarsh last night (after couple of glasses of red, so hopefully I was still vaguely lucid!!). I'll try to do monty today and get back in touch with urban gardener cleve west too!

Well done FL, I'm sure even after a couple of glasses it was better than anything I could do  ;)  Just had another thought - how about trying Watchdog.  I know normally they take on consumer goods and scams but hey, might be worth a go - after all they does seem to be some sinister goings on by some parties  ;D

If you want to go down the 'celebrities support allotments' line have you thought about

a: David Bellamy - after all, allotments support an awful lot more wildlife than brickwork
b: Jamie Oliver - he's a groovy food hero at the moment
c: Sophie Grigson - very pro seasonal veg cooking
d: Delia Smith - didn't she have a book about Kitchen Gardening - also a big churchwoman (could be RC but worth a crack)
e: Doesn't Jeremy Vine on Radio 2 have an allotment slot
f: The two veg blokes of radio 4's veg programme.

What can be seen as church double standards are always good fodder for the Daily Mail and the like - have you thought of writing a press release, with particular reference to their 'eco-column' - if you can write a slightly quirky press release it makes their job much easier and therefore they are more likely to use it.  Also mags like The Kitchen Garden, Grow Your Own, Organic Gardening.

Good thinking Ceri.

Oh, and of course there is 'The Food Hero' Rick Stein.  Remember he did that episode that featured the allotment holders who bbq'd at weekends etc etc.  And I always think his enthusiasm is infectious.

If you go to his Seafood Reaturant in Padstow website there are contact details there.

thanks to merlin's mum, we now have the primary care trust batting for us.  :)
NSALG local group are writing to em too.
I'll track down monty and the others mentioned over next few days too.

merlins mum is a good person to have on your side!
the veg blokes from radio 4 love anything like this-what about joy larcomb?
bob flowerdew?
...seeing as how their 'top boss' usually has his handsful-what about a quick email to the next in line-archbishop of canterbury?-letters to the times and the telegraph usuallyget a response-i've always found,when writing to anyone in this vein-it frightens the bejabers out of them if you put ,in the bottom left hand corner-copies to;..and then a bloomin great list!
kityy-in a bit better mood today...... :)

Thanks Kitty and glad you are feeling in a better mood  ;D ;D ;D

I know fl has already said thanks to everyone but I would also like to say a big Thank You[/b] to each and everyone of you, you have all been great.  It just proves there are some really lovely people out there.   :)

MM

invoice is in the post! ;)

I hope you're not charging as much as last time  ;D ;D ;D ;D

MM

you'd only know if you paid up..... ::)

 ;D ;D ;D

. ;)

latest in from the bishop's PA:

Thank you for your email which the Bishop has seen.  We have passed it to our Buildings Department for their comments.

which at least isn't a 'No. Now get orf God's land!' :-\

That's promising then?
Anyway, if I remember rightly - isn't it God's "green and pleasant land" not  God's "there's a space let's build some houses on it land" eh?  eh?  ;)  ;D

larry-lol! ;D
caz-lol! ;D
and wasnt there a bit about THE MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH??
c'mon people-get with the meekness perlease!



i think the revised king james was 'and the meek shall inherit the allotment'but i cant be sure..... ;D

...or should it be ..and the meek shall inherit mice, pigeons, carrot fly and unidentifiable big waspy things??  :o :D

Quotethe meek shall inherit mice, pigeons, carrot fly and unidentifiable big waspy things??

Or are mice pigeons, carrot fly, wasps (and slugs ???) the meek?  ;D

I've no idea if any of these might be useful FL - but might be an intersting comparison between ations and words?

http://www.cofe.anglican.org/info/socialpublic/smte.html  - "In 1998 the Bishops of the Anglican Communion drew up a theology of and passed a resolution on the environment."

http://www.conservationfoundation.co.uk/html/parish_pumps_main.htm and http://www.conservationfoundation.co.uk/html/news_parish_pumps/news_parish_pumps_31_01_05.htm

http://www.organicconsumers.org/organic/church20705.cfm - an " an
eco-friendly policy under which organic bread and wine will be served for Holy Communion, clergy will recycle waste products and fair trade products will be sold at fêtes" (but allotments will be sold for business development - hee-hee)

http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/sermons_speeches/050417.htm - actions or words?

A bit of embarrassment value in here?

All best - Gavin

Hey Gavin
nice stuff you found there - you did better than I've managed. Particularly love the one about church going organic.
We've welcomed a new set of squatters this weekend  :)
two families and their children were digging like crazy yesterday. No sign of them when I was over there this morning so maybe they overdid it a bit on their first day ;)
Now if we can only get a couple more people in Bicester to write to the council about wanting allotments, we will have a stronger case.
thanks all

A pleasure, fat larry - I got the standard reply about you being a bunch of no-good rent-shy squatters too, and it p*ss*d me off just a little  ???  :) ???.  Enjoyed digging around for the stuff - and if I find any more  ;D ;D ;D

Good luck - Gavin

thanks Gavin. Wouldn't mind if they were right about being rent-shy. I've offered to pay rent, they declined. Got bit incensed yesterday over there when I was repairing my poster asking people to phone me to see if they can help save the lottie. I repaired the carter jonas/church poster that was flapping in the wind (even though Carter Jonas tore my last one off!!!) and decided to write once more to the bishop...

(oh, and I found monty don's email, at the end of his weekly Observer column (DOH!) so will be asking for his support too this week)

To: christine.lodge@oxford.anglican.org
>
> Dear Richard
>
> I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but until we started kicking up a
> fuss about retaining the allotments (at Skimmingdish Lane, Bicester)
> there was no visual indication of who owned the land etc, which is at
> the end of the day, why we are now there as 'squatters'.
>
> Since then Carter Jonas have put up a poster which says: "These
> allotments are managed by Carter Jonas LLP on behalf of the Oxford
> Diocesan Board of Finance. All enquiries should be directed to Carter
> Jonas at the address above or telephone Ox 511444"
>
> I know of at least one person who has phoned them with regard to the
> allotments, only to be told they are not available for rent â€" which
> makes their letter a masterpiece of non-information, in my opinion.
>
> Looking into the history and legislation regarding allotments I believe
> local allotment authorities are required to show they have made all due
> efforts to make allotments a going concern before they are allowed to
> develop the land for any other purpose â€" I would have thought that
> morally that obligation should extend to trustees also?
>
> I believe we now have the general support of the local primary care
> trust, who know of allotments' physical and mental health benefits. I
> wonder if the church is aware of the Elder Stubbs allotment in Cowley,
> Oxford â€" which I believe was also originally a trustee site, and which
> now houses a thriving, vibrant community of allotment-holders as well as
> various mental health workshop groups, who sell produce and even make
> sustainable locally hand-made furniture.
>
> Something like that on a smaller scale, of course, in Bicester, would be
> a real asset to the town, and perhaps give us some positive publicity
> for once (I'm thinking of the ongoing asylum centre problems).
>
> Thanks for your time, and once again, sorry to embroil you in this but I
> feel your viewpoint will carry a lot of weight.
>
> Yours sincerely
>
>
>
>

i do sound like  boring old git at times though, don't I? ;)

Don't know what you mean zzzz....zzzzz.....zzz...zzzzz..zzz. ;D

Seriously though- you have got to get your points across without it sounding emotional and like a knee-jerk reaction. So I think you have got a good balance there.
Could you help me with my dissertation??!

Just a couple more to explore?

http://www.cofe.anglican.org/about/churchcommissioners/pastoral/parsglebeadmin/parsglebeman/ -  haven't checked the *.doc downloads, but some of the summaries look interesting/useful?  Like "Notices to be served on relevant interested parties by Diocesan Boards of Finance before sale, exchange, lease ......"
"Representations against Parsonage and Glebe Matters
A flowchart outlining our procedures upon receipt of representations against ... the sale of diocesan glebe."

http://www.cofe.anglican.org/about/churchcommissioners/pastoral/legislation/ -applicable legislation?

http://www.cofe.anglican.org/about/churchcommissioners/pastoral/ - this seems to be the main root page for this kind of stuff?

What a bizarre load of legalistic mumbo-jumbo - designed and written for obfuscation?  There's a lot to be said for mediaeval Latin - at least you know what you don't know :)

All best - Gavin

fat larry-if i may be so bold with this suggestion..i am a great believer in 'belt and braces' so i think you should open a bank  account entitled 'Allotment rents'and put everyones yearly rent in there no-give them receipts-you act as treasurer-then there can be no....er..'misunderstanding' as to your groups intent-you must be seen to be willing to pay rent and not to be viewed as 'squatters'...it can be kept in the account til such time as the matter is settle-keep a proper written account of moneis taken too-if it comes to nothing and you get kicked off then everyone gets their money back,but if they let you stay thenyou can write a cheque to the church or whoever!

That sounds like a really good idea Kitty  :)

ta moggle!
not that carter jonas or the bish would stoop to underhand tactics or owt..ahem!#
dib dib dib.be prepared......

our MP (until tomorrow??) Tony Baldry has an allotment and is sympathetic!! so we got Green MEP caroline Lucas and Conservative MP TOny Baldry ... if we can get a lib dem and labour bigwig on board we will have cross-party support!!!!

Hi Lawrence
I emailed George Monbiot and he said:
'Hi Rachel, thanks for getting in touch. I might one day do a piece about allotments and perhaps include the info you sent, but can't justify a whole column about that one site. But good luck in fighting the Church. G

So I guess it's case of wait and see. I've been looking to see if there is a precedent for the church selling off Glebe land for commercial gain, I'll be in touch if I discover anything worth shouting about.
I'm interested to hear how the church will respond to the council though. And, in the meantime check out a website called www.powerswitch.org  If what these guys are saying is accurate, we're going to need all the allotments we can get our hands on....
Rachelx

Couple of minor strings to bows:

The environmental value of food miles - walking to allotment - flying beans in from Kenya  - mmm

The other very trendy language at the moment is 'ecological footprints' - and having an allotment is very positive on this measure.  (It's very basically the idea of lessening individual's environmental impact on the earth - as at the moment many people's usage of resources means we actually need several more earths to sustain  our current ways of life in the western world.)  Although the formulas used to work it out can be questioned scientifically, the theory itself is sound, and is a very good simple idea for the media to get hold of.  I'm sure the diocese has an ecological footprint that could be lessened....

QuoteI'm sure the diocese has an ecological footprint that could be lessened....

look out ceri.they use to burn heretics remember! ;) ;D

Larry - on the BBC web site, if you look at the local news pages - ie for each county: they claim to be intreested in local stories. Don't know if you have already tried this:

Do you have a news story for Oxfordshire? BBC News Online's local team would like to hear from you.
Your input means we produce better stories and can improve the quality and range of issues we cover.

The team, on duty seven days a week, are:


Brian Thornton
Anna Lindsay
David Fuller
Hannah Bayman
Malcolm Prior
Thelma Etim
We are based at Havelock Road, Southampton, alongside BBC South TV News.


If you have any comments about our coverage or a story suggestion, please send an e-mail to: south.newsonline@bbc.co.uk

Or contact us by post:

BBC News Online Southampton, Broadcasting House, Havelock Road, Southampton, SO14 7PW.

Or by telephone:

023 8037 4372/ 4399/ 4396

What about local radio? When my kids were caught in a civil war we got the story on the radio and in a Methodist newspaper. It's not hard to get publicity if you want it.

Thanks for the above suggestions.  We have been getting some publicity in the papers but haven't explored the TV and radio options yet. 

MM

For that matter what about the Church Times, and an article for your diocesan newsletter - most diocese have a weekly 'paper'.

kitty - so that's what the lightening this morning is about - thunderbolts with free delivery!

fat larry and merlins mum
in

The Allotmenteers!

cert.pg

A thrilling tale of two allotmenteers fight for justice !
see their turnips grow!
thrill to the sound of slugs eating their lettuces!
gasp as the carrot fly and the bish of oxford is defeated!


i can see it all...hollywood.champagne receptions...autograph hunters.....*sigh* ;)


but will you still remember the little allomenteers when you're at the top? ;D

ceri-thats what you get fer messing wid da church!
there'll be an archdeacons head on the next pillow tomorrow morning! ;)


just the head .....nothing else.... :o

We thought you deserved an up-date.
The Town Council had a full meeting on the 16th and it was agreed they would send a letter to the Diocese encouraging them to allow a short-term lease on each of the allotment sites until they decide what they wish to do with the land.  They would also enquire as to what their long term intentions are for that particular piece of land.  In addition it was agreed that the Town Clerk should write to Cherwell District Council to receive confirmation of exactly what the land was allocated for in the local plan.
Since then we have received a statement from the Diocese in which they say
“· There is a question about the safety of part of this land, not least because of the recent development of the access road.
· There is a question about access and parking, as the site is close to a major road.
· There is also a question about the suitability of this site for allotments, as much of the land has been spoiled following the construction of the access road.

The Church has heard the request of those who are currently illegally squatting.  We are consulting on the issues about which we are concerned, and we will make an announcement at a Press Conference in Bicester at 11.00 am on Monday 27th June 2005 as to whether we are able to grant some form of temporary, limited licence to cultivate.”
They also say “It is the local authority, not the Church, that decides on the future use to which land should be put.” 

MM

did you know the Bishop of Oxford is the patron of a green electricity and gas supplier

https://www.ebico.co.uk/about.htm

just a thought

sorry, just re-read the website - it's not green, but it is fair trade so deemd ethical

What is the land designated as on the local plan? This is really important.
You need to encourage the local planning authority's conservation officer to push for allotment use rather than housing designation.
Might be worth doing a traffic survey - over an hour or so at peak weekend allotmenting time - to show how few pedestrians are at risk etc...

We have been in contact with a senior planner with Cherwell District Council who says that in 2002 in was down for commercial use but the current plan no longer shows development.  We know that anyone is entitled to put in for planning permission on land that they own but we do not understand why they are doing so now when the local plan has been changed.  They appear to be 2 years out of date! 
In their statement they mention concerns of safety, yet this only seems to bother them now, people have been walking across the allotment site from the time the new road was built to take their dogs for a walk.  While there are only a few of us using the allotments, there is no problem with access or parking.  In fact some walk or bike to the site.

MM

i've been a bit schtum on this forum for a while - madly busy with this and work etc. Thanks for all the support and info â€" the church at first said they 'had' to develop cos it is on the local plan. we've now proved that to be untrue, so now they come up with spurious safety concerns. I'm not impressed. I walk to the allotment with my children and getting across the road sometimes means waiting a few mins at rush hour. there is loads of verge space to park on, and a nice convenient gate off the roundabout that could easily lead to a hardcore parking space ... if the owners of the land were to actually be supportive of sustainable initiatives

from today's oxford mail (not my paper)

Allotment squatters get good news from church

A CHURCH at the centre of a row over gardeners squatting at its allotments
has agreed to look into issuing short-term leases.
Six green-fingered Bicester residents took over plots at the centuries old
allotment site off Skimmingdish Lane about six months ago, without the
permission of the landowner and without paying rent.
They have since been asked to leave by the Diocese of Oxford, which owns
the land, and told that new tenants were not wanted.
The gardeners say they are happy to pay rent, but just want to grow
vegetables.
Last month, the group lobbied Bicester town councillors, who agreed to
write to the diocese.
Now The Rev Richard Thomas, pictured, communications director, has issued a
statement saying the church was considering granting short-term contracts.
He said the church had an obligation to make the most of its assets, but
had not made a decision on the future of the land.
The statement said: "Meanwhile, we also need to respond to the small, but
vocal group who have decided, illegally, to squat on this land and wish to
use it for allotments until the future use of this land is decided.
"Whilst we are certainly open to this consideration, there are a number of
issues that need to be addressed."
The Rev Thomas said there were questions of safety at the site, including
access from busy Skimmingdish Lane, and the suitability of the site due to
the recent construction of the bypass.
One of the gardeners, Pauline Sallis, said the group was hopeful it would
be allowed to stay.
She said: "We are optimistic but it's a shame we have to wait so long.
"There are other things we would like to be doing but we are not going to
spend our money if we have to move in a couple of weeks."
The diocese said it would announce its decision on Monday, June 27.

The Church has issued a statement and it's not good news.  Basically they want us off as of now.
I intend to write to the person handling this and plead for us to at least be able to stay until we can harvest what we have planted. 
Here is their statement in full

GLEBE LAND ADJACENT TO SKIMMINGDISH LANE
Tuesday 21st June 2005.

This release relates to the email release sent to local media on Wednesday 25th May 2005 about the possibility of allowing a small group of squatters a limited right to cultivate land on the former allotment site adjacent to Skimmingdish Lane.

In that release we said:

Whilst we are certainly open to this consideration, there are a number of issues that need to be addressed before we can properly respond:

There is a question about the safety of part of this land, not least because of the recent development of the access road.
There is a question about access and parking, as the site is close to a major road.
There is also a question about the suitability of this site for allotments, as much of the land has been spoiled following the construction of the access road.

After careful legal consultation, we have been advised not to issue licences, and we have no plans to do so in the future. The press conference planned for Monday 27th June is therefore cancelled."

Feeling gutted  :'(
MM

Sorry to hear this. What they are concerned about is by issuing licences to use the land they may make it harder for themselves to develop it...
I don't know what else to say on the matter really other than I am really sad to hear this news. Seems it is happening all over the place - all day meeting today in Godalming about Farncombe allotments being developed into housing...

Thanks Lottie.  I know some areas need more housing but it's wrong that allotments should come under threat because of this.  They are so good for you, we all know how good they make us feel 99 percent of the time.
MM

Any idea what the "careful legal consultation" came up with?

hi wivvles
no, they wouldn't say but reading between the lines I think they are worried that if they gave us short term leases, say a year, they might find it even harder to get us off the land.
MM

Will be emailing anyone I can think of tonight. Just a thought.....our future king is very pro organics etc, what about a letter to his Charlesness just because you can?!!! I really hope it all works out for you guys, I just got a plot after waiting 4 years on some stupid waiting list, so I understand your frustration!!
To the barricades 8) !!!!

Ooooooooh!!! Just thought, Sir Jonathon Porrit!! Used to be just an environmental campaigner but is now a speaker on religious matters too, also used to be an advisor to P.Charles...he might be an ideal person to contact, but dont know how!!
Btw, just in case anyone gets the wrong idea I am NOT fixated on royalty!!! :-\

Quote from: Merlins Mum on June 23, 2005, 15:07:30
hi wivvles
no, they wouldn't say but reading between the lines I think they are worried that if they gave us short term leases, say a year, they might find it even harder to get us off the land.
MM

In which case, continue occupation and campaign.  From above posts, I get the impression that the local authority aren't keen on developing land.  If the Church want to appeal against that, it will take time.  In the meantime, your campaign can continue to build support.  Photos in the paper of productive allotments, happy children etc can only be helpful

Yes wivvles, the local authority have no plans at this time to build on the land.  I have every intension of going up there regularly and looking after what I already have growing, as to whether I will continue to get the rest of the plot straight, that will depend probably on the weather!  8)  So terribily hot here and has been for a week.
We haven't given up!

MM

the church reasons for us not staying:

Access: but there are four gates on to the land, two big enought to drive a bus through
parking: it isn't a spectator sport. there are seven plots at the mo, and some of us don't drive
safety: Accusing the council contractors of leaving the land in a dangerous state, seems to me to be a dangerous statement.

It's rubbish, but trying to put the blame on others (first it was cherwell council for designation of the land, which we proved to be wrong, then they came back with the above rubbish) saves them the ungodly indignity of admitting they wanna keep the land derelict in a bid to get planning permission more easily by saying nobody wants the land.

If it is so dangerous over there what about the dog walkers who use it and their last legal tenant who left in April? And what about their letter to a woman who lives near here offering her a plot last June. What has changed since then? Other than our audacity in questioning the role of the church in this whole sorry affair. Has stuff like this happened before I wonder?

I don't post much on here as on the advice of you guys I took it to the papers, including my own, which has led to the church accusing me of furthering my own interests. I agree and have never sought to hide my role, but all I want is to a) grow veg and b) create a community asset for the town! What do they want, what's their interest? To make mucho money.

The way churches behave sometimes just makes me ashamed! It's not the first time I've felt severely embarassed to be involved with such an organisation but at least I'm not an Anglican. They've got severe financial problems awaiting them as they lost a load of money through bad investments some years ago, and are having trouble paying their ministers. They're much more minister-dominated than us Methodists; we can adapt to not having many of them, the Anglicans would have to make some serious changes to their system, and even worse, their theology. So the bureaucrats have got their underwear in a twist. The best way to get the church to budge is to embarrass it, so carry on as you are!

oxfordshire county council came back to me re the land being spoiled or dangerous as a result of the development (by them). they said 'it's totally untrue, there would have been hell to pay if we had' - which I thought was amusing, given the nature of the land owners' work! they also said the church asked for access to be put in!

it's nice to know that the church of england is open and honest in its dealings with its people â€" I saw Rowan Williams (archbish of canterbury) bemoaning internet forums like this in the news the other day. Would be much easier for them if we all still doffed caps and tugger our forelocks as they swept by, wouldn't it.

Don't forget that ordained ministry, priesthood, whatever you want to call it, developed in a cap-doffing age. they're like royalty, dependent for their long-term survival on a mystique they're having more and more trouble maintaining. It's not surprising they feel threatened by forums like this one!

We had to campaign against the church here in Lincoln over a different but equally sensitive issue.  They own and run the local private school.  Next to it is the oldest pub in Lincoln - which had extensive gardens and mature native trees with rope swings and a play area.  The pub was profitable and was a really nice place to go for a traditional pint.  They wanted to extend their science facilities so the could let in some more poor little rich darlings into there privileged fee paying school.  They tried to close the pub to use the ancient buildings as a storage facility.  We campaigned against it and managed to save the pub.  However, they still ripped the heart out of it and turned it into a clone pub.  Took 7/8ths of the garden and put up and ugly fence just leaving a strip of bare grass.  Some of the trees have been cut down, they ripped up the best boules court in Lincoln and now only the pupils have any access to the nice part of the garden and the remaining adventure play area (they already had one of these the general public did not have access to in the shadow of the cathedral)  They have always said that the Tory party and the established church are one and the same thing.  Their business practices would suggest that that assessment is about right.

You can see why I'm not part of it! I get quite worried by talk of Methodist/Anglican union.

But then again there is a wide range of Anglican thought.

I am in the evangelical end, and don't agree with a lot of the woolly reasoning behind a lot of the decisions that are made by the high church end.  Not all Anglicans are the same...

I feel embarrassed by this whole thread, even more so because to most folk here including the Christians it is not a good example of Christianity, but apparently a very good example of what Christ warned us about as regarding the love of money!
Even if that's not what the Oxford diocese see from their point of view, it's not what's coming across... and so often it's perception rather than intent which changes everything.

moonbells  :(

aaaaaaah!moonbells!you read my mind!
i have just had a harrowing experiance of my mother dying and cutting me out of her will-my brother-a rampant christian ,churchwarden of his local church at reepham in lincs...who has put me right once or twice on christian principles saw fit to keep the lot(£200k)for himself...after one or two..ahem...'discussions'about the love of money being the root of all evil,he finally refused to have anything more  spoken about the subject-i find 'christians'who pick and choose which part of christianity to conform to hard to understand..and i can imagine how embarrassing it must be for true christians.....
what i will say-i bin rich -i bin poor-rich is better-but i can hack poor too! ;D
and no amount of money could ever compensate me for having a sanctimonious prig for a brother. ;)

Reephams on my way to work Kitty - would you like me to pop round and sort him.  I am not a Christian but I have nothing against anybody of any religion.  The people I cannot stand all have the same principle and that principle is hypocrisy. 

oooo-clanger-you treasure!
yes please-and feel free to take some great big mates with you! ;)
i have absolutely nothing against people who feel the need for religion.i'm just  not one of them-what i object to is being advised as to how we should be living a pious life while they whoop it up in a most ungodly fashion...

for anyone who wishes to discuss this aspect of godliness with my brother please feel free to pm me for the entire sordid story and his full address..... ;) ;D

That sounds completely disgusting; I was cut out of my father's will so I know how you feel. In a way I'm not sorry; knowing the sort of person he was, I'm not sure I'd have wanted it anyway. The reality is, everyone picks and chooses out of the Bible, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly. Nobody wants a God who commands genocide (Deuteronomy 7), for instance, so nobody takes it at face value. Mostly they just ignore it, and rightly so. I get annoyed with people who insist rigidly on the 7 days of Genesis 1's creation scheme, ignore the single day of Genesis 2, and pass over in silence the waters above the sky, also in Genesis 1. That really is picking and choosing. People who manipulate the text for selfish ends make me want to vomit.

Ouch.

It is indeed annoying when folk pick and choose bits of the Bible according to what they want to say.  I try to be consistent in what I aspire to live to but suspect I'm all too human sometimes.
I try to live with the thought that the Lord will sort out the hypocrites, eventually.  Even if I too get a slapped wrist for slipping (as I would be a hypocrite if I said I didn't!)

I think the best way to deal with someone who does something awful is to be nice to them both in public and in private.  That way, you don't compromise your own behaviour, and may make them feel awkward!

moonbells

ahh...but at least you try moonbells!can't ask for fairer than that... :)
i think that plan of being nice to people who dump on you from a great height- is a good one..unfortunately i am all too weakly  human in that respect and there is ever so slightly MORE chance of hell freezing over than me ever speaking to my brother again...well..theres only so much you can take aint there? ;)
i do have other compensations-a wonderful mother in law,great OH and son-good friends,great job and a contented life-and i've grown some ace taties this year! ;D

Quote from: moonbells on July 06, 2005, 10:45:10
Ouch.

It is indeed annoying when folk pick and choose bits of the Bible according to what they want to say.  I try to be consistent in what I aspire to live to but suspect I'm all too human sometimes.
I try to live with the thought that the Lord will sort out the hypocrites, eventually.  Even if I too get a slapped wrist for slipping (as I would be a hypocrite if I said I didn't!)

I think the best way to deal with someone who does something awful is to be nice to them both in public and in private.  That way, you don't compromise your own behaviour, and may make them feel awkward!

moonbells

Don't worry moonbells - I think hypocrisy has to be intended and I am sure that we are all guilty of the occasional slip, religious or not.  I only think it is those who deliberately preach but do not practice that are getting our hackles up.

Quote from: kitty on July 06, 2005, 16:28:20
ahh...but at least you try moonbells!can't ask for fairer than that... :)
i think that plan of being nice to people who dump on you from a great height- is a good one..unfortunately i am all too weakly  human in that respect and there is ever so slightly MORE chance of hell freezing over than me ever speaking to my brother again...well..theres only so much you can take aint there? ;)
i do have other compensations-a wonderful mother in law,great OH and son-good friends,great job and a contented life-and i've grown some ace taties this year! ;D

which reminds me... pm on way...

moonbells

Me too. I sent a short one as follows to Richard Harries:
Dear Sir, I have heard with concern that the church is intending to build on land now used as as allotment site at Skimmingdish Lane.
As an allotment holder myself, I beg you to use your influence so that the development does not take place. Allotments are essential to the community, and available numbers have been dwindling. I believe their use should be encouraged, and urge you to support allotments in the community.
Hoping for your support,
etc...

I hope this helps Jennym

I have to say I agree totally with the view here both on the lotties and 'pick and choose' Christianity.   Mind you we will never be perfect and all make mistakes and often being nice to the nasty has far more impact than being nasty back.   As an Angliczn myself I also have issue with a lot of decisions made by the high church and did a lot of soul searching before getting confirmed!

Anyway a letter has been sent along the lines of this is a not good for pastoral care, outreach or setting the kind of example that may encourage people to find Christ.    If anyone wants to add a letter to the list then this line of opposition may be quite effective.

Iain

I would be interested to know just who has sent emails or letters to the church over this. In a bid not to clog up the board could people be so kind as to send me a private message to say if they have done so, and whether by post or email. thanks for all your support, btw.
ps my broad beans are delicious, well worth fighting for!!!

We've now got a very simple website (has to be for me to understand) www.freewebs.com/savetheplot

Hope it sums up our story, feel free to link it to your own sites etc.
It would be good if folk could find it via google, but doesn't seem to come up for me:(

Several people tending our lotties have had threatening letters from the church's solicitors today. I'm trying to post it on our website www.savetheplot.co.uk but it's not going up at the moment. (http://eviction%20letter%20for%20web)
not sure if this will work. if not basically it says 'our instructions are that unless you vacate by aug 31 our client may commence proceedings against you for recovery of the land and for compensation for any loss it incurs as a result of your occupation. Obviously our client would prefer not to issue proceedings but if it has to do so, it will be entitled to recover from you the court fee and its other costs of obtaining possession. We look forward to hearing from you.'

(i tried to add the pic of the letter but am not sure how to do it)

I have just read this thread, a terrible state of affairs. I discovered my site had been under threat of development, until all us newbies turned up.

I have just taken a look at your website.

Leisure use could encompass lots of uses other than allotments including a golf course (if used with surrounding land), an "adventure warehouse" type development, or cinema, or bowling alley. A leisure centre or swimming pool would be another obvious choice - is there a need or push for one of these in your local area?  If so then this could be their aim and would probably get local support.

As soon as the application goes in then anyone can object.
I suggest that you give us all the file reference number of the application and the name and address of the planning offices and we can all write in to object.

I studied planning for years at university, and in order to objections to be taken seriously they should not be emotive and should concentrate upon the facts as they stand in planning law e.g. density of the proposed development is too high; the proposal causes reduction in the right of light to neighbouring properties; loss of green space; loss of community facilities; unacceptable additional levels of traffic causing to increased risks on the highway; development is contrary to the zoning of the 2004 local plan.
Look at the policies in the local plan and try to find those which do not match with the application and use these points as the key to your letter of objection. You will find that they are then taken more seriously.

If you can get your parish council to object to the application then the decision will not be allowed to be taken under delegated powers (by a planning officer) and will have to go to a committee meeting - at which any objector can speak for a couple of minutes to the committee about their reasons for objection. The local councillors hold more sway than the planners at this stage - but if they reject it then it could go to appeal - but don't forget that the Government are very keen on allotments.

I hope this is of some help.

Thanks, all. We now have 130 local objection letters as per the one on the website. Now on top of legal letters there is a planning application - it too is on www.savetheplot.co.uk and I seem to have a slew of email objectors, from all over Oxfordshire, as well as Essex, Coventry etc, so am pretty pleased with that.

Also got letter from Bishop of Oxford referring back (bizarrely) to the 1996 local plan â€" only eight years out of date! (last one was 2004 when the lotties are not marked for development)

Agree about emotive stuff â€" and about other possibilities for site. But it turns out, according to Jeremy Burchardt (allotment academic!) that ours IS one of the oldest of its kind in the country â€" a rural allotment, not a pretty one, but part of English history no less!

the planning ref is on the website ... feel free to object too if are able.


Many, many thanks

If it's a historical one that's something to push for all it's worth. Would there be any chance of getting English Heritage to list it? Our site is listed, so it wouldn't be the first. Does it have hedges or any distinctive feature? It was the hedges which were crucial in our case.

We're in The Times today. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1744664,00.html
hopefully with a pic. Very good piece but doesn't point out that they don't yet have planning permission AND that it is outside the local plan and not zoned for development IN ANY WAY!

a good article nonetheless. :) well done!

Great article. Hope it helps do the job!

if you do have historic hedges and history  - try:

How do I get a building listed?

Anyone can apply for a building to be listed. To have a building considered, write to English Heritage at:

Heritage Protection Operations Department
English Heritage
Room 202
23 Savile Row
London
W1S 2ET

The application should be supported by as much information as possible, including:
Address of the building
Reasons why you believe it may merit listing
Clear original external and internal photographs
Name and contact details of the owner
Location map
The more information that is supplied, the quicker a listing application can be dealt with.

Another tack might be to get Tree Preservation Orders on all the site hedges and any large or rare trees on the site - contact the local conservation officer to ask for a map of the TPOs on your site and suggest tohim that the hedges etc should be covered under TPOs. At the very least this could HINDER development... don't make it easy for them!

Our site was listed without buildings, but with hedges. It's worth a try.

A brief update: We all got off at the end of August to prevent the threat of court action from the diocese of Oxford (bless 'em).
the church put in a planning application for outline B1 use in August and objections need to be in by September 15. You can read the more or less latest at www.savetheplot.co.uk

I'd just like to thank everyone on this forum for all their words of support and wisdom, we've done our best and if the bishop of oxford can't see that this whole scheme is a bit lacking in Christianity then I despair.

Quoteand if the bishop of oxford can't see that this whole scheme is a bit lacking in Christianity then I despair.

.....

i always find the people with the most scruples and humanity are the ones who dont need a title... ::)

well done to you and merlinsmum and the rest of your team who'fought the good fight'...shame about the outcome but i think you all took it to the wire......

time to dig another lottie...
luv
kitty :)

Quote from: wardy on September 10, 2005, 11:30:14
I've recently opposed a plan by the Diocese of Derby to flog off a massive farmer's field for building houses.  It got rejected but we have to keep our eye on the ball or they'll be back when we're not looking

Don't you turn your back on them Wardy, they're all devious b**st**ds!

And where will our veg and fruit come  from? Oh we'll get all the rubbish that the rest of Europe doesn't want.
It makes me so angry  >:( It's started all ready.  Did you see 'dispatches' a few weeks ago?  When did any of us say we don't care about the taste of our food just so long as our green beans are straight and a certain length, and our tomatoes and apples are pretty, bet none of you did!

Hey thanks kitty but FL did most of the work, I was just pleased to be able to lend a hand. :)

Quote from: wardy on September 10, 2005, 11:30:14
This government seems intent on covering our green and pleasant land with concrete.  Where will our food come from when everything is under housing?  In these uncertain times it seems madness to me to build, build, build without considering reusing buildings and removing slum housing etc.  We have loads of derelict properties which could be demolished and new properties built on the same site but that doesn't occur to our planners.

Many of the derelict properties would probably be quite economical to refurbish if someone would make the effort. I think one of the biggest mistakes we ever made was to demilish so much 'slum' housing and replace it with tower blocks and the like. I'm not sure the lesson has really been learnt yet.

Do we ever RB  ::)
MM

Merlins mum was - and is - the staunchest ally anyone could ever hope to have. Who wrote to the Archbishop and Charlie after all. And them forwarding their letters to theBishop of Oxford provided us with the most fulsome correspondence we've ever managed from the diocese. And she did/does so much more too.

The war isn't over yet. I just wish the Bishop Of Oxford would take a long look at what is being done in his name.

At the very least it is cherry picking of local plans created by the council so their 'precious' speculative development can go ahead, combined with disingenouus (someone else explain that, and spell it correctly :) reasons why development should go ahead, not to mention their false claim that statutory allotments should have running water... er, this isn't a statutory allotment. statutory allotments don't need to have running water, and how come you presumably will be willing to provide running water for an office development but are unable to provide for a lossmaking allotment site. Face facts, the allotments have always been loss making. but you are a church, supposed to support the community (hello vicar).
For whatever reason you aren't doing that anymore... please come clean and explain that you are not a community asset and are JUST a dodgy business. I'd expect this kind of bull**** from a dodgy speculative developer, but not from the Right Reverend Richard Harries, user of a hybrid car, and champion (allegedly) of the environment.
Come on Bishop, get with the programme.
I always thought he was a good guy, but this whole scenario makes me wonder.

ps. the website is frozen, apparently cos so many people are reading it (i think it is u lot, thanks) !! thanks. Plan to get it sorted this week thanks to a very good friend of mine, Khalid, who owns a very good mac specialist company in Oxford â€" Oxford Macs.

Quote from: fat larry on September 10, 2005, 22:34:05
Merlins mum was - and is - the staunchest ally anyone could ever hope to have.

Thanks fl, guess we haven't made a bad team, and I must say there was the odd occasion when it felt like just the two of us.

As to the rest of fl's comment - he has a great knack for telling it how it is. 
MM

yes mm..but i wish fl'd  stop shillyshallying and get off the fence-tell us how you really feel fl! ;D ;D ;D

merlins mum is a great mate too!-she has a cape and wears her...ahem.. lower undergarments on the ouside of her tights..a regular superheroe in my book! ;) ;D

i think you both have done marvellously..i know just how difficult it is to sway large corporations-i started a farmers market a few years ago(o stop blowing yer own trumpet kitty)and the aggra-bloomin-vation from the county council was unbelievable-you'd think they didnt want any thing that might become an asset in the city-won in the end but it don't half colour your perception of people in the end.....s'why i'm a cynical ol'kitty these days..and the church is THE worst for dog in the manger,slfish greed..
kitty dismounts high horse.....
anyway-i think you deserve bloomin big medals both of you! :-*
p.s-theres an article in the october kitchen garden about allotments being bought and sold..

Quote from: kitty on September 11, 2005, 18:42:52
merlins mum is a great mate too!-she has a cape and wears her...ahem.. lower undergarments on the ouside of her tights..a regular superheroe in my book! ;) ;D

Oh kitty, now everyone knows, it was supposed to be a secret, tut.  ;)

weeeeell..there has been talk of seeing a u.f.o.over oxfordshire..... ;)

 ;D ;D ;D