Allotments 4 All

Hi,

Are your Councils all geared up for Aug 4th 2004 compliance?

Allotments are Public Open Spaces.  Don't be put off by silly argument that it restricted to "Tenants". Tenants are Public, therefore your allotment is "Public"

So, your Council/Authority must comply with The Disability Discrimination Act "Access".

Which IMHO means that your Allotment must be able to be accessed by those with a disability.  So, are your entrance road-ways up to standard?

Remember..... they must comply.  No excuses.

Does this count for non-council owned lotties?  I am guessing not.  We have a very steep hump up and a sharp dip down  through a narrow gate into our site - I am fit as a fiddle....well most of the time, but I find it hard going especially when carrying tools!  

Hiya,

It depends who the landlord is.  Effectively if it's a company of any sort, inc the Church, they have to comply.

In the first instance,I suggest you just ask them if they have to comply with the act (in the nicest possible way).

Who does own your site?  We will be asking the question of some of the bigger landlords, railway, church etc.  We don't wish to scare them, but maybe give them a chance to occupy the moral high ground.

Oops  :-[

The access is for PUblic Open Spaces.  Yours must be public.

Hi Merv

We are council owned, but self managed, and we have responsibilty for all expenses incurred, including major stuff like fencing.

Guess this means that it is we who are responsible for disabled access, as council devolves all responsibilty to us.

Good job a wheelchair could get in through our gate, as with about £400 a year to play with and almost a kilometre of falling down fencing, disabled access would not be a priority!!

Interestingly, our council does so little, we didn't even know about this latest bit of legislation. Like the new thing about protection of information (?) - keeping lists of allotment members names and addresses. Also this year there has been new legislation about asbestos, which they did deign to inform us of - a few weeks before it came into force.

I guess some allotment association committees would know about this sort of stuff, but we shouldn't assume all do!!

Love and compost
Linda

Coincidentally, I have been told that "a man from the Council" was down at our site (and other sites) one day last week checking for suitable plots to be adapted for use by disabled/wheelchair bound i.e. making raised beds etc.  Think this is an excellent idea and one we have spoken of before on our site and would very much welcome but would mean that paths would have to be much better too.  

Of course, could be that the Council is only going through the motions of "investigating" and "exploring the possibilities" in order to comply with new legislation.

Don't you think, Merv, that rights to the disabled ,have got a bit out of hand. There is a limit to what a disabled person can do , so why not accept some things are not attainable. Soon, you will want steps to the top of Everest.

Ken that rather unfair statement, says much about what people think of the disabled.
Should we not be allowed the pleasure of a lottie just because we are disabled,and have safety a consideration.
Maybe people should spend a whole month acting out a disabled persons life and then lets see how many would complain about there being certain legislation out there to help those who want to help themselves.
Or would you prefer we sat behind closed doors so as not to offend
the able bodied, with our disabilities. Heavens above should we not have some rights going for us, its not much to ask for.
Why shouldent an allotment with raised beds be attainable.
And yes one day we may want steps to the top of Everest.!!!!!!!!!!!!

My council allotment site has just been sold off for building.It could well be the requirements you mention Merv, is what prompted them.If slabs, possible risk of being stolen, so a extra wide concrete path up to the lottie site plus the same each side of the beds.It's gonna cost a fortune. Surely some raised beds at home would do.Of course I don't want you to stay at home all day, Rosebud, but there are plenty of places to go, the library for one.What I am saying, is that disabled people should cut back on their expectations, and not want the unreasonable.After all old people pack up doing things because of age and illness.Are we still friends.

Ken, I am trying to convince myself that you are a "wind up merchant" and not serious in your viewpoint >:(  However, I do know that there are people who do have these attitudes.

I wanted to answer your post earlier but thought I would perhaps over react, however Rosebud has  had more conviction than I but I will reply now.

Selfishness because your site had been sold seems  to be what prompted you to post but if your site is being sold it is for money and perhaps because it wasn't being adequately tended - I don't know but you would be given priority for a plot at another site.

Don't assume that everyone has a garden at home and don't assume that every allotment site will be transformed to comply with this legislation, there isn't the money available.  The legislation applies to ALL public site and buildings and there is only a very small percentage of those that have or will adapted.  Not everyone with a disability is in a wheelchair so there are different levels of access which can be attained relatively cheaply.

In a perfect world no one would have to suffer a disability but I am glad that my husband's disability is in his body and not in his attitude to life like you.

Sorry folks if I have overstepped the bounds of politeness - but no I don't apologise.

By the way Ken if you had read further back on this site you would have seen the kind of man Merv was and his "fate" and I doubt he would have appreciated your reply.

Yes Ken we are still friends . That dosent mean i will except what you say. I feel you are of the old school regarding the disabled,That we must keep out of everybodys way, to hell with what we would like in the world.  Well thats tough for all the old school because things are CHANGING for us for the better.  I am able to get about slowly because of dreadful pain in my knees,need double replacement. also bad heart . BUT I DO NOT WANT anyones sympathy i want change, to be able to do the things i really enjoy.
"Go to the library indeed " go spend your day in the library Ken hide yourself away , how would you feel after a whole day??
   Regards Mary.

Yes I'm sorry about  the Everest remark.But I do know about Merv's condition and I do know about disabled peeps, helping out at the local library with adult special needs.What I can't get my head round is how a disabled person could actually do an allotment, when in my prime I barely managed.The available money would be better spent elsewhere, e.g. at the library or day centres, and I can't see my local council voting funds for allotment access for the disabled, some councillor probably suggesting sell up instead.A better solution would be to let the disabled park on their own plot.We were given the opportunity to relocate, Wicker, but several of us packed it in (myself because of age and infirmity).I am not a wind up merchant, but was an auditor for 30 years so cost is all.No offence intended

 Ken having read your post again ,i am wondering if Wicker is right .
 YOU ARE A WIND UP MERCHANT.  You cant be serious about lowering our expectations.  Shame on you Ken .growllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.

Rosebud....I am not saying lower your expectations...just re-direct them to something more attainable, and less potentially harmful, and less costly to yourself or other ratepayers. Be on the committee of a lottie association, but don't try to maintain a plot. You'll kill yourself, and we've only just met too.:-)

Hi Mary....I have in my neck what you have in your knees caused by....yes......digging, when I did gardening full time.And the library is a marvellous place..meet lots of people...play with the comps. Love you.

Thank you Merv for allowing the  diversion. How are you? Is your treatment progressing

Unfortunately, I don't think dear old Merv will still be with us.  I feel sure by the tone of his original posting however that he approved of gardening facilities for the disabled.

I don't understand the narrow view that disabled people should not be encouraged to take part in as many aspects of normal life as possible, particularly gardening which can enhance a persons life so much.  To be out in the fresh air, growing plants is a fantastic experience so why not? Here is the url for an allotment association geared up to do just that.    http://www.nsalg.demon.co.uk/societies/moorlands_allotments.htm.

We have a blind man on our Site.  He has wooden posts arranged all over his plot to guide him to his beds.  He loves being out in the fresh air and seems to get great of satisfaction out of culitivating his plot. It is not the tidiest plot on the site but our committee don't think that is important, -  we can only admire his patience and grit in the way he tackles his garden.  :) busy_lizzie      

Thank you for your input BL. Sadly of course Merv will not be with us
now. Yes i agree the fresh air and growing anything is one of lifes pleasures.  And joining i on this site is another because we all learn from each other.  Having a lottie or not there is always something
interesting to talk about. Have a lovely day everyone.
           Cheers Rosebud. :)

strange ideals of conversation going on here, if I was dis-abled and wanted a plot then it would be great to have one with suitable access.
Unfortunately money seems to be everything these days.
Access costs money.sad world but true. If I was dis-abled and wanted a plot then it would be life changing to be able to have that but councils that would find it cheaper to sell the plots than provides disabled access would probably sell as they are hounded from all directions for money and service etc. I think if my plot was at "risk" because of one dis-abled person wanting access then I would be very annoyed to lose it but then couldn`t a plot containing about 60 plots chat with the person involved and if that person was serious about sharing costs then everyone could chip in and work weekends and make it so! bit of hard work and bit of money divided by 60 or so and the councils descision can go up their butt :o
So long as that disbaled person is serious about the plot for more than a year or so then community spirit could manage it. Then again there are dis-abled people and hypocondriacts(prob spelt wrong) who are lazy and want everything on a plate due to a slight disposition... ruins it for the people who really have problems.
It is a sad world really, I often help a blind couple in Lloyds bank which is a slow process and the lady used to help on allotment till blindness took over, they need help with everything, including setting clocks twice a year and stuff like that,cant even read the mail! we take it all for granted but we are so busy in our own lives with work etc that we sometimes lose sight of other peoples hardships. me included.
You have to really be in a tough position to appreciate things from thier prospective.
Mind you, Kens point made me write this...brave to type it really, it shows what a crap world earth can be.

I will shut up now :-X
Drunk and rambling and abled, but had the pleasure of being able to go to my plot today.

I do know where you are coming from Andy but doubt if any Council would genuinely sell allotment site because they couldn't put in disabled access - for heavens sake most allotment sites don't have toilets or running water (well maybe the fact that there is no toilet means that at times there is "running water" if you know what I mean  :o)  As to cost part of it might well come from Disability Groups who are anxious for their "clients" tolead a fuller life - and not all disabled are old and feeble there are many young disabled people too who might not wish to spend their days in the library as previously suggested.

I am sure there have been many many articles of legislation proposed for the good of the general public which have yet to be acted upon. Public buildings will surely be  taken as a priority for equal access first, visitor from our Council was simply talking about one neglected plot having a couple of raised beds and slabbed path.  And I'll believe it when I see it - if I am still alive!  

Oh well, no one knows what is in their or their family's future and when they might require facilities themselves and we may not all be as independent as we think we would be ...

Just as an afterthought, Andy, if access/facilities was providedfor a disabled plot (whoever pays for it!) do you not think that would be grounds for keeping a site open - another string to the bow so to speak

What strikes me in this thread is that people have "fixed" ideas about what is "disablement" I hate that word I do..  this is about equality and i shake my head at some of the things said here.. in 2004? have seen much discrimination in my life be it a person in a wheelchair to unmarried mothers and it is all vile and nasty and all it is, is displacement onto minority groups.. one of the things i have heard peeps say is about a friend of mine.. heard a bloke say "he can work, scrounging Bstard" I will not share what happened to this person.. if you want/need disabled lables I give u the man who said that ignorant thing, cus that man is truly crippled, bound by soundbites and bbc news.. on the latest bandwagon with the daily mail, a paper which constantly kicks and bullies those least able to defend themselves.. have said many a time and it still holds

Viva La differience

thats my 2 pennuth

ciaran

:-* :-* :-*

Hi Ozzy..I thought Andy summed it up nicely. There is only so much money available and although allotments for the disabled would be on *my* list it would only just be above 'computers for the blind'. I agree there are degrees of disability, but running an allotment is *not* like pottering about at home.A big city like B'ham or Cardiff could probably afford special sites but even they would have to have extra insurance and probably a supervisor on site all the time.There was a scheme in my area where the unemployed did work (including gardening)for old and disabled folks, but that seems to have folded.....Regards Ken

Ken

It isn't for us to decide what a person can or cannot do, take the para olympics for example.. as for the money angle.. I just dont buy it.. it comes across that it is some sort of "favour" equality is equality and thats all people are still asking for.. I dont care about money means nothing and only devalues life.. ending discrimination starts with each and every single one of us.. wonder how much the bombs cost that killed little Ali's mum and dad and brothers and sisters and left him with serious injuries in Iraq? those bombs cost money.. we should all be shouting about the cost of each bullet fired.. but like I said money devalues life,,, equality not favours or percieved handouts, cost very little in comparison... and its not like we dont get paid back cus we do in many ways.. we learn something new.. but it starts with us.. and i seee no reason why a peep with no legs cant climb everest, people are full of surprises..

Ciaran

Well said Oz/Ciaran.  :) busy_lizzie

Knew you would understand, Ciaran.  There are many ways of meeting life's many challenges and some people are just more willing to fight them.

By the way, in case anyone thinks I have a personal interest in this - I don't, we do not need "disabled" access.

I agree about the wars, Ozzie, and I've had a few 'everests' to know what that's about. But I think there are enough benefits in place for no one to feel victimized or discriminated against, and then there are the additional things like free medicine and cheap travel. Any extra layers of help are barely necessary.When I was orf sick for a year (1982), then six months on the dole, I didn't like all the questions and signing on but some control is necessary, otherwise there would be abuse of the system.With some benefits I think spending habits should be linked .

Ken, have to point out that if someone is registered as Disabled or receiving Disability Living/Working Allowance then they do not receive free prescriptions as such.  

Re travel if you mean Mobility Allowance (purely for ambulatory difficulties)  this is in fact funded by a charity and administered I believe by the relevant Government Departmentl - a fact which few people seem to realise. I do know that some disabilities can receive a free or 30p per trip bus pass or a taxi card (which takes £2 off the cost of a taxi run if they find getting on and off buses too difficult) but not both..  That is this area at least but should think most would be the similar

Original discussion was disabled access to allotments and no matter what either of us think this will probably remain pie in the sky for many years having been put on some Council wish list!

Obvious we will have to agree to differ - your mind is set. Hope neither of us find ourselves in a situation where we have need of such facilities. Ken, we are  probably better to stick to strictly allotment subjects and stay friends I hope? :-\

I didn't know that Wicker. As an OAP I get 1/3rd off rail if I buy an £18 travel card and half off bus fares with a free travel card, but can still walk and bike. O.K. all, friends it is. It beat the usual  'cat mess on the lawn ' conversation.And I play chess too Ozzie if you want a game.

our allotment gates are apalling and i dont think any one with a disability could enter them so were do u get a copy of the act so u can make the parrish aware of it

W have just got approval from our committee to take over three gardens near our main entrance to convert for less able gardeners. Our plans will include raised beds of different heights, varied paths, a leisure area, scented garden and toilets. So far there are very encouraging noises from funding bodies and a mental health group have offered voluntary manpower.
Your local CVS should be able to pinpoint likely fund providers and provision of gardens for the disabled ticks lots of boxes.
Looking after different sections of the community surely makes your site safer from development.

Reading your post really cheered me up, DJ!  Good sense all round.

The biggest handicap that many disabled people suffer from is the attitude of the able boddied!  My local council has provided a number of raised beds to encourage disabled users.  The beds are rather small though and only offer limited growing space.  It is a great shame that legislation like the Act has been required in the first place.

Would somebody please define "disabled".   I've always considered it a state of mind rather than body!!!!!

I work with a bloke who's registered disable 'cos he had to several pieces of himself amputated but he is one of the most able people I know.   His lack of fingers, toes & nose doesn't bother him & he doesn't let it hold him back.

If everybody had the same attitude to life as my work mate the world would be a much better place.

CC

I can't believe some of the comments here about physically disabled people needing or wanting to do an allotment. People with toes and arms orf etc should pursue mind games and chess or as with that Hawkins chap. The carers,pushers and pullers, are the losers.My good friend Alan, ran a gardening scheme at a local Council care centre and wasn't  even allowed to teach physically disabled adults, and even then the whole thing was cancelled after about six years because of accidents. Too many do gooders about.

There are a number of ways of defining disability - but it basically works out as a dehabilitating condition that is expected to last more than 12 months.  From an employment law perspective it covers a wide range of conditions - eg diabetes, mental illness, etc rather than the stereotypical image of wheelchair bound invalid. I think there is no longer a clear status of 'registered disabled' and it comes down to individual interpretation of the regulations.

There are strong arguments for and against legislating.  If you don't 'good' companies in cash rich industries tend to comply with 'guidelines' as do public sector organisations.  As with most of these regulations I think it comes out of a european elective.  All new buildings have had to comply for some time and it is now being expanded to cover established sites.  Don't forget it covers all public access areas - so shops too.  Wonderful news for those with restricted mobility due to a pram as well as those disabled enough to require a wheelchair.

I think most allotments sites will get away with it until asked by someone with a genuine and demonstrable concern and then they will have little choice but to comply. 

We all pay the taxes that fund these alterations on council owned sites.  Just because you are disabled does not mean you or your family has never contributed to the public purse.  I would rather think my excessive income and council tax contributions subsidise disabled access than street lamps for townies!!!  :P

Managing disability is to a huge degree about a state of mind - but it shouldnt be dictated by your personal finances.  'Allotments for All' sums it up.

We all pay the taxes that fund these alterations on council owned sites.   

Yes, we all pay the taxes, but not all council owned sites are maintained or provided for by the council.

In our area, the allotment association is responsible entirely for maintaining the site, and would also be repsobsible entirely for making a disabled access allotment.

Ok, we would likely get grant funding for doing it, but it would still mean that the same half dozen volunteers that will turn out next weekend to mend the boundary fences, will have to lug paving slabs around to make a good path for a wheelchair user.

The principle is great - of course wheelchair users 'should' be allowed access, but who will be made to make that happen? Not the darn council, that's for sure.

By the way, I am disabled myself, though not a wheelchair user.

Love and compost
Linda

As regards the 'same half dozen volunteers' having to do all the work. You would probably find that the local Community Punishment or Social Services may help. We've had an offer of labour from a branch of Social Services. They have a large number of young people with mental health problems who've volunteered to do most of the work whilst learning new skills. There will also be voluntary groups who might like to help. Make an appointment with your local Council for Voluntary Services and you might be pleasantly surprised.

this site is called allotments 4 all, need I say more?

Many of the gardeners on our site have physical limitations, myself included, but none of us want the label disabled. It IS possible for disabled people to enjoy allotments, it just takes a bit of ingenuity.

Just because you can't imagine how a disabled person could possibly garden does not mean they can't do it, it just means your knowledge or experience of this subject is limited.

If you'd like to know more, read the fascinating book "Able to garden" Horticultural Therapy by Peter Please.

Just because I can't use a spade or fork does not mean I can't manage, it just means I do things a little differently. I have a full size allotment, which I tend myself. The only time I have ever had to ask for help was when I needed a trench for asparagus. I can't manage most "normal" tools, but I can use a lightweight push pull hoe, as long as I pace myself and rest often. Little and often is the key. I use mulching to help control weeds and reduce the need for watering. a long tool handle makes a good support if I have to bend over to pull a weed out. I use a little seat so that I don't have to stand.

At the moment I can't access my allotment when I need to use the wheelchair, (gates are fine but no firm paths anywhere), but I'm planning alterations to my plot for next year to change that.

Because of gardening, my reliance on strong painkillers is reduced, I'm stronger & fitter, (gardening is my physiotherapy), and I'm a happier person. I've also made some great friends at the allotment. I'm 30, are you really saying that people like me should sit inside all of our lives because having us on your allotment site might make you just a tad uncomfortable? Get real!

Have only just read through this thread.

I am registered as disabled - no wheelchair yet - and it seems to me that those who have contributed fall into various categories. It doesn't matter what they are, but to all of you who show the understanding that being disabled doesn't make you a second class citizen, THANK YOU.

When I took over my waterlogged allotment those few months ago I was really scared that in digging out the trenches needed to drain it and build the raised beds to sort the plot out for the future, I would cause myself physical damage.

As it happens one of my elbows is giving me real gyp, and the sciatica in my lower right back is irritating, to say the least. But pride and determination stopped me asking anyone for help - other than my son and my partner - and now that I have produced crops of all sorts of things the feeling is magic.

The fresh air has helped with my breathing. The exercise has helped me to lose weight. BP is well down and bloods have thinned. The improved diet from the veg is another plus. The camaraderie with other plot holders is brill. And most of you on A4all are a real encouragement in all sorts of ways.

Discrimination is offensive, no matter what type it is. I feel guilty about how awful I was directly or indirectly to all sorts of disabled people when I was young and fit.

Let's keep growing stuff and encouraging each other to do the same. Viva Allotments4All!!!!

I am proud to say that 3 of our allotment site are home to people with disabilities. The largest being Haddocks Wood Allotments in Runcorn, Cheshire.
This site benefits from Scope , Mind, Astmoor day services and more recently Halton Hospital have applied for a plot to use as a rehabilitation plot for people recovering from stroke or neurological problems.
All these groups have made a real impact on the site to enhance disable awareness as they have broken many myths and barriers in what they CAN DO. and they are all no part and parcel of the sites dynamics.

Regards

Alan

Was really good to read your mail Trenchboy and organicartist and to hear how beneficial allotments have been for you both.  I had Chronic Fatigue about four years ago and at one stage couldn't walk very well or very far.  When I took on an allotment three years ago people thought I was mad.  Here I am three years later, hale and hearty again and I am sure it is thanks to my allotment.  I used to sit on a yoga stool to weed and dig with a trowel.  I am sure being in the sunshine and breathing in the fresh air gave me energy and gradually built up my strength and enthusiasm for life again. Growing things is a very life enhancing thing whatever your disability.   :) busy_lizzie

I had chronic fatigue and a back injury; the last traces of both vanished no long after getting my plot.

hi, i've been very interested in this thread. now i'm gonna add my two penneth.
i am not disabled. however, to look at things a slightly different way, someone in a wheelchair is not excluded from gardening because his legs don't work. gardens can be at any height, on raised beds or in baskets. what a shame then if he is excluded from gardening because someone else chose the width of the path without considering him! that's what the legislation is for. it's not to make disabled people a priority. it's only to give them the SAME rights of access that able bodied people have.
sounds fair to me.
Tara xx

I dont know if this has been mentioned but why not find a derelict piece of land and make it into a large or a small closed of aera comunity garged. I dont have to be called and allotment and you could I suppose get funding for that! Comunity garden for the desabled? Just a thought. As stated on this forum council land is council land and it is up to the council how they run it! Trust me I know!

The_Snail

  1 Thing I hate is having a label attached (community garden for the disabled)
    I have a hidden disability I am deaf don't normally tell everyone point I would
   like to make is this I would like to see 1 helluva lot more done for us all with
  any type of disability just the same as all "normal" whatever that is take a lot
  of things for granted..... As for the legislation regarding the enforcement of the
  DDA and the criteria involved there are different areas of get out clauses in
  different parts of the country so until they all start singing of the same hymn
  sheet I think you will find that (a)there will be no prosecutions done on a rapid
  manner (b)I personnaly think its not so much councils baulking at having to put
  monies in to this ........as its the fear of being taken to court and being persued
by a court case for compensation this is the kind of world we live in these days

    Lance you hit the nail right on the head when you said "its a shame the
   legislation had to come in" but I think that it was truely needed and it should
  have been brought in years ago...................... ok I better stop ranting !!

something else to consider,
it is estimated (by certain, well respected, nationwide disabled rights groups) that the expenditure of large companies making legal challenges and generally trying to impede disabled rights legislation has amounted to more than three times the cost of implimenting the new rules.
seems they REALLY don't want disabled people working for them and will pay treble to try and keep them out.
now if that's not active discrimination i don't know what is, and clearly changes in law are the only way to ensure these companies act fairly.

Dave n' Tara

Spot on.

Some of us disabled people aren't obvious to the bigots, as we don't have wheelchairs/walk strangely/whatever. But once they realise something's not quite right the eyes glaze over and absolute bollo... comes out of their mouths.

It's as ifanyone unable to run a 4 minute mile(oops I'm that old I remember that distance)is subhuman - or that someone with learning difficulties doesn't understand the spoken or written word.

When you actually get to see these captains of industry they have beer bellies and exhibit all the signs of impending cardiac arrest or stroke. Does make me laugh.

Well I won't share my harvests with any of them!!!

Why oh why..do disabled people want to further disable themselves by taking up such hard work as allotmenteering...it's the support people , wifes and helpers, who have to pick up the pieces. There are plenty of absorbing hobbies about, like stamp collecting and guitar playing and storytelling and even mending cars.

Don't understand Ken. Wasn't sure whether this was written tongue in cheek.  If people love gardening and can find a way to do it, why not?  Doing something you love is the best thing possible for someones health.  If it reaches the stage when it is too much then you don't do it. 

The same thing applies to able bodied people, they take on an allotment thinking they can cope, but when they find they can't they give it up, its as simple as that.  It is freedom of choice to try. 

I have mentioned before on the board that we have a blind person on our Site.  His is not the most conventional of plots, he has stakes all over, presumably so he can distinguish one bed from the other, but he seems to manage and probably gets a great deal of satisfaction out of it.    busy_lizzie   

It's like I've said before, BL., it's the helpers (I am one) who has to pick up the pieces..finish off jobs...explain to the handicapped they they have taken too much on..cope with the tantrums.Mind you I am talking of special needs adults in a group now, and you might be thinking of individuals who perhaps need a challenge.There are plenty of challenges in life without all the graft of gardening.

Right..bitten my tongue as long as I can whilst reading this thread. First...I do not have a disability. Second..I represent no special interest group. Sooo....

People with disabilities have fought for the right not to be called "handicapped". If a handicap is involved,  it is the thoughtlessness of the rest of the world which makes it so.

If people with disabilities wish to garden, abseil, climb Everest or anything else I do not think it is up to me or my fellow able bodied beings to decide whether they can or not.

I think we can all agree that gardening is one of the most creative and stimulating things you can do, and I for one would be delighted if someone with a disability decided to grow stuff at my site.

Right....thats it, nuff said.

I used to work with special needs adults myself, and know what you mean. But not all disabled people have the same disability, and I had clients who would have been well able to handle an allotment if they'd chosen to do so.

Hi everyone...  A little bit of pottering in the garden and gentle exercise on the bike, is all it needs. I used to run marathons and the disabled people participating, should never have been allowed. Just makes their condition worse.Same with doing allotments. But like you say there are a million types of disability.But on a slightly different tack...John Prescott has been charged with finding space for another half a million houses, no way is he going to overlook vacant plots. A letter has probably already gone out to the councils, 'find space for houses'.No way are they going to allow underused allotments (mine has already been sold orf), or give plots to people who might be difficult to shift.

my eldest daughter has Down's syndrome. this condition is nowhere near as disabling to her as the attitude of people who feel qualified to decide what she should or should not be able to do.
luckily, she has a gobby mother to even the balance somewhat  ;D
we are each entitled to our opinions. fortunately, legislation is making it increasingly easy for people with disabilities to ignore negative ones.
my daughter can and will continue to enjoy a full and active life. she will pursue ANY hobby she likes and woe betide any who stand in her way. Down's syndrome doesn't stop her doing anything. bigotry tries to stop her every day.

and one more thing  ;D
Ken, you mentioned steps up everest earlier on this thread. please try this, google the name Norman Croucher. he's a mountineer and has climbed a great many mountains around the world including several peaks in the himalayas. i'm not certain if he's conquered everest yet but i know it's on his 'to do' list.
by the way, did i mention that he's a double amputee?
and no, no-one provided steps  ;D
Tara xx

You've only got to look at my area to see the reason why they want to build so many houses. It was redeveloped in the 1950's and 60's, with, inevitably, jerrybuilt Council flats. Some of the blocks were a new design which was so awful it was never used again; they're still standing, and the roofs are still leaking.  But it housed a very large number of people, in quite a small area. Council housing has been run down, by Government policy, since the Thatcher era. So the decent properties have been sold off, and many of the flats demolished and replaced with houses, which obviously house far fewer people in the same area. Populations of areas like this have gone down and down as a result. Those people have to go somewhere. But new housing buld has nothing like kept pace with the rate of demolition. So we get a shortage of affordable housing, and sky-high prices. It's the legacy of 60 years of ill-concieved housing policies; if they'd left the old 19th Century houses in place and concentrated on maintaining and improving them we'd all be far better off.

Norman Croucher isn't the only disabled climber; there's also the American guy (can't remember his name) who had to slice his own arm off when it got trapped by a falling boulder, and still climbs seriously. There have been many who've carried straight on after losing digits to frostbite.

David and Tara...I have all the sympathy in the world on a personal level, and know all about challenges, but it should be horses for courses.When I'm out cycling or long distance walking, and see someone coming towards me who ought to be in hospital, then I think of all the personal support he needs,and the expense, and the treatment afterwards.Of course I can't stop them doing it, wouldn't want to but feel that alternatives should be pointed out. I have the same thoughts about  fit people who abuse themselves with fags and booze, then expect the state to mend 'em....And you won't stop developers  and Prescott pushing for councils to sell off what they see as surplus land. It's money, money, money.

i certainly don't want or deserve sympathy! vikkie is the best thing that ever happened to me, she has brought more joy and sunshine into the lives of all around her than i could possibly express here!
as her primary 'carer' (or mother as it would be for anyone without a disability) i can honestly say that i am not a martyr to her cause, just someone who enjoys her company and basks in her warmth.
there is no reason for her, or anyone else who is not ill to be in hospital.
i do sympathise with you however, if you feel forced to give 'care' that clearly leaves you feeling resentful! my advice would be not to offer care if it makes you feel this way, it must be awful for the recipient to feel such a burden!
Tara xx

Tara

Nooo - Ken has absolutely no disabilities, other than his bigotry, arrogance, and bloated self-importance.

How he has managed to get to his esteemed number of years without getting to know and valuing someone who doesn't measure up to those nice prewar aryans over The Channel a ways is simply amazing.

Now, do I insert my inhalers or my crutches? Hmmm - crutches - and sideways?

But am I yet convinced that Ken(69) isn't a clever satirist...? We are all entitled to our views on absolutely any subject, but having visited Belsen-Bergen Camp the other week, I do realise that some people are sometimes more "able" to express those views than others.

Cannot cope with much more from our Ken, so rather than enter any further into a slanging match I will sign off from this thread and get on with my stupid idea of growing vegetables to help with maintaining my substandard existence. Why oh why did my area health authority waste all that money on my transplant when they could have spent it on more worthy people?

I have recently had a year at college. The college has excellent facilities for people with all types of disabilities, an aspect of it that I didn't know about until I attended.
If you could see the absolute joy on the faces of some of the very severely disabled people who attend, when they participate in day-to-day gardening activities, and achieve what to some may have seemed impossible, there would be no question in anyone's mind as to the worthiness of making facilities such as allotments and gardens available for all.
I feel that it is unquestionably the responsibility of all more able people to support and contribute towards this.

Our local horticultural centre for the disabled had to close after six years because of all the accidents, the final straw being when one of the disabled got hold of a sprayer.Pottering about makes sense, but the sheer hard graft of doing an allotment for a disabled person, doesn't make sense to me.It's going to make matters worse, n ot better. And...and...there is room in the caring industry for someone to do the nuts and bolts of the job, like driving the bus, getting peeps on and off, clearing up all the mess afterwards, and finishing off the hard bits.Glad to do it.Pleased to be able to contribute to a better society.Just don't ask me to finish off any more allotments for people who shouldn't be there in the first place.

Gawd Ken, I really hope you're not a believer in karma, or you could be in alot of bother next time round........Lottie

Seconded

Thirded

Etc etc etc >:(

Whether Ken's remarks are "sincere" or not - I feel sure he is certainly enjoying all the attention and upset he is once again causing. I crossed swords with him way back on this thread and certainly don't feel it is worth my time "talking" to him on this subject again. Sad man that he must be ...........

finish off an allotment? Ken, i wouldn't ask you if i had no limbs, no friends and no pride.

Well I do think some of your remarks are out of order. I have the respect of my boss and staff in this caring group , and often asked to play the 'hard' man to get the peeps moving. And we do have de-briefing sessions where health and safety is discussed, so just can't believe some of your feelings.Anyway I'll let you have the last word. I'm always kalm. :-))

   I have one last word and it describes you to a T

      "ARSEHOLE"

Having finally read through this thread, there's one more aspect that I would like to add.

My dad is 73, and this month "celebrated" his 50th anniversary as a quadraplegic.  To give you an idea of his disability, he severed his spinal cord a single vertebra lower than Christopher Reeve.

He can breathe, talk, move his head, and shrug his shoulders.  That is all.  No walking, no use of his hands, no independence, nothing.  (Yes, I am adopted, well spotted).

But you know what?  This guy is my dad.  For 29 years he has raised me, taught me, played with me when I was a kid, shared my triumphs and tragedies.  It has always been a huge regret for both of us that he could never come to my school, see me in plays, be at parent's evening, because of access.  He couldn't come to either of my graduations.  He will never see my flat, because 250 miles is an impossible distance for him to travel.  He won't meet my cat, or see the places I describe to him.

Of course he couldn't manage an allotment.  But he sure as hell would want to come and sit on mine, and encourage me as I worked, and enjoy watching things go, make suggestions, and BE INVOLVED, if I lived closer.

The DDA isn't just about making things accessible in terms of physical involvement.  It's also about access to the lives of people close to them. 

Of course; it's about perfectly basic things like a job I'm working on at the moment; disabled access to my church shop. We've always had disabled access elsewhere in the building, I'm now getting a ramp put in with a door big enough for a wheelchair. I don't see why something like that should be in any way controversial, except that some people are prejudiced. Same goes for disabled access to allotments.

Have just seen that this thread has re-activated again and I have great understanding for all parties that are being deeply affected by the rights and wrongs of the less able people in our world.
It's not for me to say who/what is or isn't right.

Just one comment from myself:-

Merv, if your "up there" looking down on us, I bet that you're having a bit of a chuckle that you left a real mark in this world when you went.
R.I.P mate, it seems that you will not be forgotten yet.

Quite right Granny Smith.  I often think about Merv when I click on to this portion and see his name.  I think he will be looking down on us with a smile on his face, enjoying what he started.  God bless  you Merv.  busy_lizzie

I've read this through again I can kind of see where Ken is coming from.  Before I get roasted though, the bit I mean is that councils get a certain amount of cash devoted to providing for the disabled .  That cash will probably go on things that the council believe are important and not necessarily what disabled persons would actually desire.  Had the council asked them they would probably get a better idea of where to fund rather than going for these schemes that earn brownie points for them, never get used,and close after a few years.  Leaving narrow minded peopled with the idea that the disabled are a waste of time and effort.  Stick with me here I am honestly not trying to offend anyone but I am not the brightest at getting my point across.
Ken - for the record.  I am registered disabed too.  I don't fit the widened doors and ramps criteria.  I have chronic epilepsy which is controlled (at the mo) by drugs.  I am sorry if you feel that free drugs are a privilege, in my case they are a necessity if I want to live.  I work full time.  I can not drive (have to wait to get my licence back re drug levels) so I get a free bus pass.  Sorry again.  I run a thriving cub pack which I see as a service to the local community.  I also love my allotment.  I would never ask for anyone's help other than family if i couldn't cope i.e rotorvating, but frequently give help to my lotty neighbour who is 96 and partially blind.  He has been lottying for 30 years on the same plot.  Are you suggesting that he should be chucked off because his sight demands level paths ?  I do hope not.  rant over

Very well put, Baggy - and never fear, your point came across like Blackpool illuminations!
I agree entirely that the 'Brownie point' attitude is to the fore when it comes to Council schemes for the disabled - I have a perfect example of this right outside my front door.

However, reading through this thread, what is even worse - and truly disturbing - is the apparent lack of vetting by the authorities of those who work with the disabled, whether paid or voluntary, which has allowed Ken to come into contact with vulnerable people.

To Linda Newby

Councils can devolve administration on to Associations, but they cannot devolve their responsibility in law to provide allotments and comply with various legal minimums.  If they have truly given you the land so completely that they have no liability under the access Acts, then I suggest you sell it and apply to the Council for Allotments under the 1908 Act. That should stir them up.

Hi Adam

Unfortunatley we don't own the land. The Council owns it, and we rent it from them, but according to the terms of our lease, we are responsible for all current and future costs. So we are responsible for all our boundary fencing (which we had to build), our leaking water supply (which we put in), our subsiding track (which we put in), and getting rid of the asbestos sheets that have accumulated on the site over the years. Whilst we haven't actually asked the council if we are responsible for disability access, based on their past and current performance, I can't imagine they'll suddenly become good landlords, can you? :'(

Love and compost
Linda

You need to consult with the experts and find out exactly what the Council's liabilities are. Even if you have got a management agreememt, they're still the landlords, and will have responsibilities towards you, which can be enforced if necessary.

what about a site where the natural ground is that steep, its hard work walking up the main drive, nvr mind anything else??!!??

I have just found this thread. I'm so shocked by what some people have said on these pages. Can't imagine how anyone has the    balls   in this day and age to say such things about any body never mind the disabled who are at last being accepted in society.
I'm classed as disabled some times crutches or perhaps wheelchair. I have asked for nothing from my allotment society, I could never get into the loo's, so go home if needed, I'm having the access to my plot and the plot it self made suitable for my needs. I want nothing from any body with those peoples attitudes.
Who don't even think that for the last forty years I have paid taxes like every one else and to just ask for some of the things in the Disability Discrimination Act to be brought into our society would be such a great help for us.
Still feeling so shocked that people feel this way   just hope thats the response they get when they become disabled    as they surely will be.

They're already disabled, in the empathy department.

Chocolate, Just ignore what must be a miniscule amount of people with these very limited view points.  The vast majority of people know how much benefit is got from gardening and thankfully things are becoming much better for people who have a disability.  You continue to enjoy your quest to grow veggies and take no notice of those very few who  are always trying to sour things.  :-* busy_lizzie 

Thanks allot uzze two.
Cant believe whats been said,
thank goodness for the nice folk on this site.
Do you know whats shocked me is that I never
thought for one minuit that people could think
like that. Think I'm too naive don't you?
God knows what the folk on my site think of me.
Like you say take know notice of them, little bit wiser now.  ::)

Chocolate, People probably think what a spunky, gutzy woman you are, who is not going to allow a disability to stop her from doing something she wants to do! Go girl!!  ;D busy_lizzie

Hopefully the nice ones will think
like that and the others can stick
their comments up their backsides eh
Thanks so much Busy, you know your
always there for me, I really appreciate that.  :o

so........you make them eat their words, cos they're not getting a single surplus bean from you. (or me) i've worked supporting people with learning/physical dissabilities for years, and come up against all sorts of negative attitudes. keep challenging it, we'll win in the end. x