Hiya.
This came in the post today, along with the receipt for payment of rent for the period 2012-2013.
I signed one of these when I took possession three years ago when we started up and were self-run. Since then the council took control and have presumably changed something in the contract.
My question is, am I obliged to sign this?
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8087/8570659948_f8fbcc20b2_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/8570659948/)
Scantest4 001 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/8570659948/) by Nefariousenator (http://www.flickr.com/people/39243143@N03/), on Flickr
phone the office and ask the reason why they want another one signed, it could just be they are updating there records and making sure they have the right contact details for everyone.
Looks to me as it is an update to reflect the change from self run to council run.
Who was your original agreement with, the council or the association that ran the site?
It's not a tenancy agreement or contract, it's just a record of your contact details. There's no need for you to sign it, though there's no particular problem if you do.
I can't see that they need you mobile number or e-mail address to administer your tenancy so if you don't want to give them those details then don't, it can make the administration easier if they can phone and e-mail you.
If they needed to update their records the polite thing to do would have been to say that's what they wanted. As it is I can't see how this helps them because if you received it in the post then they already have your details, and if you didn't, they haven't.
I don't know, thinking about it the fact that it say "This Agreement" at the top does strongly suggest that the council are treating that form as a tenancy agreement - albeit a tenancy agreement without any terms! There are quite a few implied terms in a tenancy agreement so that might just work, though not if the council haven't already filled in the plot number at the bottom before you sign it.
In general you are never obliged to sign a new tenancy agreement, and if you don't that doesn't in itself terminate any existing agreement. If a council want to impose new rules and regulations what it is supposed to do is give you 12 months notice of termination and offer you a new tenancy on the new terms, and the new agreement takes affect from the moment you sign the new agreement.
Some councils like Newbury Town Council, are bullies, and they will send you a new agreement and demand that you sign it right away. You should always be given 12 months notice of any change so that you have enough time to quit the plot in good order if the new terms aren't acceptable.
Cheers guys.
Unwashed,, Here's a copy of the previous letter I was sent. I had only quickly scanned it the first time I saw it so I missed its content for the most part, but there's that 'fill in the tenancy form' bit again....
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8389/8571029951_6d6c5b951e_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/8571029951/)
CouncilLetter1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/8571029951/) by Nefariousenator (http://www.flickr.com/people/39243143@N03/), on Flickr
I'll freely admit I don't trust them, something I've learned from experience.
The last letter came with a self-addressed and stamped envelope too. They have all my details for sure, so they want me to sign this without seeing any new constitution or anything.
Any more advice? I'm tempted to just ignore it and see what's said.
I think perhaps it's just a form the council put in to identify your plot when you send the payment in. I think I'd just send my payment in with my own covering letter identifying myself and the plot I'm paying for. You're not obliged to do any more than that.
I think i would just sign it and send it in along with your cheque, after all you have already done one without any problems, you are not exactly giving them anymore info than they already have.
At worst you are only signing to say you agree to abide by the rules laid down by the council.
Its not down to the council to chase you should they not have the right contact details its up to you to inform them. If they cant contact you and you fail to pay your rent within forty days then they reclaim your plot.
If you are not happy about not having a set of rules then its down to you to ask for a copy. Its not down to the council to send them out to you. They should be available to all that ask.
I already paid, and have the receipt. They already have all my details, that's why I asked.
I'll do as you suggest Unwashed and return it with just the appropriate information included in a covering letter.
Cheers.
I think you may be getting it back Nigal, i don,t see the council not having a clause stating that all allotment holders must sign an agrement to abide by the rules.If you fail or refuse to sign then you are in breach of the rules so they may turn round and refuse to renew your lease.
If you do it right the first time you wont have anything to put right if you got it wrong
Circle the bit that says 'This Agreement' and by it write '? No agreement is attached'
Fill it in, sign it and send it back.
You have done what they have asked, they will just file it away, but if in the future thay claim you have agreed to some rule in a new agreement then you will have proof you did not agree as you were not informed.
Quote from: davyw1 on March 20, 2013, 16:16:16
I think you may be getting it back Nigal, i don,t see the council not having a clause stating that all allotment holders must sign an agrement to abide by the rules.If you fail or refuse to sign then you are in breach of the rules so they may turn round and refuse to renew your lease.
If you do it right the first time you wont have anything to put right if you got it wrong
When you sign the original tenancy agreement you're agreeing to abide by the rules - but only if the rules are attached - that's pretty obvious really, but the Unfair Terms In Consumer Contracts Regulations confirms that.
There can't be a term that obliges you to sign any future agreement - you won't know what that future agreement says - UTCCR again.
If you refuse to sign a new agreement that in itself does not end you existing tenancy which can only be terminated with 12 months notice.
A landlord cannot - and let me repeat that, because it does come up occasionally - a landlord cannot refuse to renew an annual periodic tenancy (which is almost always how allotments are let) because annual periodic tenancies continue until either side serves a notice to quit on the other.
However, vindictive councils who want to impose new terms without the necessary statutory notice will often bully tenants into signing without notice, and unless you have an effective site association it's probably not worth taking on the council yourself.
I am not disagreeing with what you say.
The allotment tenancy is paid annually each year, you sign your tenancy agreement for the coming year, the way i see it that is all the council as Nigel's landlord is asking him to do.
If Nigel signs the form and sends it back he is only agreeing to what is written on it, the small print at the bottom (the council will not give out info to other parties and they have the right to take photo,s of his plot).
Unless he has in the past signed to agree with the councils allotment rules, so therefor this would be a continuation of that agreement
If he doesn't sign it he is not he is not renewing his lease the council are not obliged to give you a reminder after the first letter is sent. I don't think the council will bother to inform him that there is a limitted time to do this before they can reclaim possesion. We all know that council move at the pace of a startled earth worm
If he is in breach of the rules by not signing the council just may have the attitude of no tolerance and respond with a notice to quit, so they have to Wait a year, but its only one letter and no more being messed about.
The trouble is none of us know what the councils pollicy is and i would not like to see anyone loose their allotment just because they do not trust the council.
After all Nigel has had hassle free gardening since signing the first why should that change now because the council want to keep their records up to date.
He could be making a rod for hid own back
Quote from: davyw1 on March 21, 2013, 09:08:03
The allotment tenancy is paid annually each year, you sign your tenancy agreement for the coming year
No, you don't.
You sign the tenancy agreement at the start of the tenancy and that agreement then continues year after year after year so long as you pay the bill - nothing to sign at all.
Signing a new agreement will terminate the old agreement and start a new one, but why would you want to terminate the old agreement if you were happy with it?
I didnt exactly phrase that right did i
Anyway the issue is the form that Nigel posted requiring a signature
Which is an agreement that the council will not give out any of his details without prior permission (which is fairly standard)
And that they may take photographs of his allotment and publish them to show and promote the work done on allotments and by the coucil (for which they need his consent)
I would guess that the council is setting up a web page on the the work they are doing for all to see.
So if he wants the council to give out his details to third parties and not take photo,s of his plot then he should not sign it.
On the other hand if he if he does not want his details given out and would like a picture of his plot on the councils site then sign it and return it.
........ Aaand here it comes: :BangHead:
First out of the envelope, hand-delivered by someone on tippy-toes....
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3762/9381764647_e13bbf2a2d_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9381764647/)
Niggy1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9381764647/) by Nefariousenator (http://www.flickr.com/people/39243143@N03/), on Flickr
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3818/9381720977_8e28352690_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9381720977/)
Niggy2 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9381720977/) by Nefariousenator (http://www.flickr.com/people/39243143@N03/), on Flickr
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2807/9381764929_5f0a34d7d7_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9381764929/)
Niggy3 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9381764929/) by Nefariousenator (http://www.flickr.com/people/39243143@N03/), on Flickr
Next out of the envelope came this:.... Something called a 'Sub-Licence Agreement'....
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Niggy4 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9381969679/) by Nefariousenator (http://www.flickr.com/people/39243143@N03/), on Flickr
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2832/9381970535_a55228276f_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9381970535/)
Niggy5 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9381970535/) by Nefariousenator (http://www.flickr.com/people/39243143@N03/), on Flickr
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3768/9385547750_cc4b5c71c8_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9385547750/)
Niggy6 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9385547750/) by Nefariousenator (http://www.flickr.com/people/39243143@N03/), on Flickr
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3785/9385548258_af1d100cf1_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9385548258/)
Niggy7 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9385548258/) by Nefariousenator (http://www.flickr.com/people/39243143@N03/), on Flickr
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2823/9382788025_7423756b36_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9382788025/)
Niggy8 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9382788025/) by Nefariousenator (http://www.flickr.com/people/39243143@N03/), on Flickr
Is there some kind of committee? Seems rather dictatorial to me.
What do you want to achieve here Nigel? It's hard to get your rights if you stand up to a tyrannical committee.
You appear to have been served with something that purports to be warning you to put right some breaches of the tenancy agreement, but if I understand your situation right your landlord is currently the town council so only the town council has the authority to send you this warning, the allotment society currently have no standing.
You don't have to sign anything. Your tenancy will continue even if the town council leases the site to the allotment society, it's just that the allotment society will become your landlord.
The tenancy agreement that the society want you to sign is confused and semi-literate. It's also mistaken about some important details. The society does not have the right to terminate a tenancy without notice and the clause that says it has is ineffective. You also have the right to put hens and rabbits anywhere on your plot, not just where the society says you should. Clause 18 is gobbledegook. The society does not have the right to inspect any part of your plot without notice as this infringes your fundamental right to exclusive possession and quiet enjoyment. You don't have a license, you have a tenancy. Clause 5. which empowers the society to tell you what to do exceeds their powers. Even the shed rule is probably unenforceable as it requires that you obtain permission for a shed and does nothing to prevent the landlord unreasonably refusing permission.
If you wanted to you could complain to Trading Standards that the tenancy agreement was unfair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, but Trading Standards are pretty rubbish and you'd have to explain each unfairness, and that's not trivially easy. It would also pis5 off the society and they'd likely evict you for asserting our rights - tyrants typically do that.
It's up to you, but I doubt you'll get any support and I doubt anyone would really understand what you were complaining about - it might be best just to poke up with whatever it is that's frustrating you.
Quote from: Unwashed on July 28, 2013, 18:28:38
What do you want to achieve here Nigel?
I think the best result now is simply to save my crops and do one Unwashed.
Thanks for you consideration so far though. I am in your debt mate.
Meanwhile, I received a copy of the first notice, the 'Rules Infringement Notice', by registered mail this morning too. Same notice so they must believe it carries legal weight, sent to me only and not my Plot-sharing daughter (They say they are discontinuing shared plots from now on, so what happens to her rights? Any Idea?)
Also. Do I warn them now that they are about to break the law by clearing my plot and taking possession of my crops and shed/fence materials and refusing me admission to their AGM?
(Incidentally, the fence is erected because of the huge on-site rabbit problem. I see nothing wrong with it at all except that its plastic with a wooden front, to be fair. Can one be forced to open one's plot up to rodent attack?)
Anwyays.
A graceful exit with crops intact would do it.
Frustrations? I am not about to rip down some up-cycled rabbit-proofing fencing to please a self-imposed committee of pensioners looking for somewhere else to spend their time and money controlling.
That is not what allotments are about, and certainly not what I had in mind when petitioning the council on their behalf for the last few years. I'm done with it, or will be after removing those crops now coming to maturity and digging up the perennials for replanting in my garden.
Just one more quicky if I may..... Can they now give themselves permission to declare the land private and to rent plots to people not from the parish? The land is supposed to belong to us, the people of Bodelwyddan, no?
There goes the back-garden lawn though! It will be an operating no-dig bed by this time next year. So I suppose its not all bad. :)
Quote from: Nigel B on July 29, 2013, 11:08:35
Just one more quicky if I may..... Can they now give themselves permission to declare the land private and to rent plots to people not from the parish? The land is supposed to belong to us, the people of Bodelwyddan, no?
Them declaring the land "private" is all part of their confusion, because it always was private. It happened to be owned by the parish council, but that didn't in itself give anyone else a right to be there, and now that the parish is leasing the site to the allotment society the allotment society is doing nothing more than it is entitled to by restricting access to tenants and anyone who the tenant authorises.
The notice you've received has no authority as it is not served by your landlord, who unless I've misunderstood the situation is the parish council. If you're leaving the site anyways then there's no harm in writing to the society (and copied to the council) telling them that the notice you've received is unenforceable because the society is not your landlord - I'm assuming that the society is not currently managing the site on behalf of the council?
I think you could invite the society to discuss with you their concerns over that cup of tea they mentioned as you may yet defuse the situation
You might like to remind the society that when they take a lease from the council they become your landlord but that your current tenancy agreement continues with the same terms and conditions, and that the tenancy agreement does not allow the society to impose new terms and conditions without agreement, and that you do not agree to any changes. You might tell the society that you are not happy with the tenancy agreement that the society proposes and that you would be more than happy to discuss your concerns with them.
If the council leases the site to an allotment society then I don't think the society is bound by the same restriction on letting plots to parishioners that bind the council, though they may be. If the council acquired the site in trust then the terms of that trust may continue to bind the society, and it may also happen that the terms of the allotments act take effect as a trust, but it's not worth the argument because you're never going to afford to challenge the society even if you have the standing to do so, which you might not. By rights the council should write the requirements of the allotments act, and also a bunch of other protections into the lease they grant the society, and if they haven't done that then they've not acted very well, but I don't think you can do much about that now.
I'm just really sorry every time I hear about allotmenteers getting grief like this because I feel so strongly that the allotment movement is being weakened by this kind of stuff, and I'm grieved too that allotmenteers are not universally getting fair treatment.
sounds like the council are letting the site to the allotment committee and you are renting a licence to cultivate that plot rather than letting the plot directly from the council. put simply i would go and find your nearest law centre and go for a little chat. a lot of solicitors will do a free hour as well so that might be worth looking at.
If you had a lease directly between you and the council then no one has the right to take that away, unless of course you are in breach of the tenancy. Does strike me as interesting that you have not returned a document and now they are raising the fence issue. Do you have a copy of your original lease?
I guess it all depends on what you want to get out of it really. if you want to stay then you have every right to fight it. if you want to cut your losses then its their loss!
So I wrote a short explanatory note on the back of one of the letters, telling them what you said about the council being my landlord and them not having jurisdiction.
Here's today's registered letter!
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2832/9443844192_578f32fa39_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9443844192/)
bags1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9443844192/) by Nefariousenator (http://www.flickr.com/people/39243143@N03/), on Flickr
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2867/9441056929_e00260a2ca_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9441056929/)
bags2 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39243143@N03/9441056929/) by Nefariousenator (http://www.flickr.com/people/39243143@N03/), on Flickr
The answer to your 'What do you want to achieve here Nigel?' question has changed somewhat.
PM sent.
Surely if they have accepted your money than you have an agreement whether you sign or not.
Mind you looks like your face somehow does not fit. I am not sure that whatever you do will be acceptable to them.
Seems like Bags by name and bags by nature.
Thank you Unwashed, for a very thoughtful and informative pm.
I can't make it public as that might prove detrimental to what seems to be becoming, an ongoing campaign to have the allotments returned to the control of a democratically-elected committee.
I keep you all posted as soon as I can.
Meanwhile, if anyone has an opinion. For or against, its all goo. Carry on!
Digeroo: Backstabbers and Greedy Sh**s? ;-)
Quote from: Digeroo on August 05, 2013, 16:58:26
Surely if they have accepted your money than you have an agreement whether you sign or not.
Exactly. Allotment tenancy agreements do not have to be in writing, it is enough that the council has accepted rent as this shows unequivocally that a tenancy exists. It does however make it difficult for the council to enforce any allotment rules and regulations because there is no evidence that the tenant knew anything about them or was agreeing to them.
Ironically enough the new Society's attempt to terminate the tenancy for a breach of its rules is also enough to prove that a tenancy exists because the Society is unequivocally treating the tenancy as existing - you can't very well write to someone threatening to terminate their tenancy and then deny that the tenancy exists!
Unwashed, I was asked by these people if you would be interested in helping advise people losing the plot. :-)
http://www.dontlosetheplot.org/
Quote from: Nigel B on August 06, 2013, 19:54:05
Unwashed, I was asked by these people if you would be interested in helping advise people losing the plot. :-)
http://www.dontlosetheplot.org/
PM sent.
So....
Sometime over the holiday period............ I don't know exactly when because I have been ill and unable to get down there......
My shed has been destroyed and the site cleared of the rabbit-proof fencing. Rabbit-holes aplenty, and the remains of the shed and fence, minus some twenty square metres of artificial turf that is missing completely, has been piled up on an empty plot. Even my compost bin (broken), tools, deckchairs, and whatever else you can think of.
On the plot is just the base of the shed, a few pallets and lots of broken pieces here and there.
(I have pictures but no usb cable for now. I'll post them when I can)
'Tis a sad day. If I hadn't been Ill, the weak-kneed B******s wouldn't have gone near it. :BangHead:
So sorry to read your news Nigel, not nice people.