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Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: mpdjulie on May 17, 2011, 09:05:31

Title: Brassicas are dead
Post by: mpdjulie on May 17, 2011, 09:05:31
I sowed brussels, calabrese, brocolli, cabbage and cauli seeds 2weeks ago in my greenhouse.  It doesn't get exceptionally hot in there and I have never had a problem growing in there before.  Five days ago when watering they were fine.  Starting to grow their first true leaves and then Sunday when I went to lottie they were all shrivelled and yellow.  I don't know what happened.  The compost wasn't soggy or dry and it wasn't overly hot in there.  Any ideas on what happened?
Also I don't think it's too late to sow some more but I was thinking that maybe I should sow them direct rather then in seed trays, what does everyone else think?
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: goodlife on May 17, 2011, 09:10:20
I always do mine in seed trays..never had any trouble like that.. ??? Any chance there being something in the water?
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: budgiebreeder on May 17, 2011, 09:10:56
Exactly the same has happened to me this year.How odd.Interested to see the replies as i have been growing  my own for the last umpty thousand years lol(well quite a long time).
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: mpdjulie on May 17, 2011, 09:16:39
Goodlife - I'm pretty sure it's nothing to do with the water as I use the same water on everything else and all is doing great.
:)
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Bugloss2009 on May 17, 2011, 09:28:22
have a poke around in the compost and see if you've got cabbage root fly larvae. They did for my summer brassicas the last two years.........
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Digeroo on May 17, 2011, 10:13:20
I had this happen to a batch of brassicas but gave them comfrey tea and they managed to pull through and I only lost two plants they are outside now and growing away fine.    I am blaming the compost - Homebase.  It was suggested to me there was not enough nitrogen in it.  So I quickly gave them a high nitorgen fix.   For me one variety was worse than the others.  Are you sure they are totally dead not not just yellow leaves.
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: mpdjulie on May 17, 2011, 10:31:17
Quote from: Digeroo on May 17, 2011, 10:13:20
I had this happen to a batch of brassicas but gave them comfrey tea and they managed to pull through and I only lost two plants they are outside now and growing away fine.    I am blaming the compost - Homebase.  It was suggested to me there was not enough nitrogen in it.  So I quickly gave them a high nitorgen fix.   For me one variety was worse than the others.  Are you sure they are totally dead not not just yellow leaves.
When I'm over there today I'll take photos, but I am sure they're dying as they're shrivelling up aswell as yellowing.
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Ben Acre on May 17, 2011, 10:45:35
Lack of nutrients re pot in fresh compost in larger pots or trays.
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Tee Gee on May 17, 2011, 13:35:49
Snap!

I have lost around 1500 plants this year and I put it down to too acid compost!

I have tried making my own, I have bought some and I have used compost from my Daleks and it is the same with them all.

I have stuck my pH metre in the but that is only a guide as the graduations are so large!

But even with this I am recording the acid side of neutral.

Now I know with the compost I made my self with John innis base I forgot to add lime so that I put down to my mistakre! (nuff said!)

Some of you may recall last year I had trouble with my potting compost but then at least I managed to grow some plants!

Well some of this will be in my Daleks so I guess it has filtered through to this years compost!

As I mentioned in another thread the a single bag of compost I bought was 30% 'painted' wood chippings so I did not know what to expect.

I feel this can only get worse as they add allsorts of things to save peat!

Who knows/ probably 'Bassets' will take up producing compost!  ::) 8)

So now I am faced with the situation that I do not have any bedding plants to plant out this year ( I usually plant out 1000+) and I am disgusted with the veg plants I have planted out this year.

What I have found to date is; the 'weak/seedy looking plants I have planted out seem to be recovering now that they are in 'natural soil' meaning my soil is is in good fettle! as I always thought it was!

So on Sunday I went out to a garden centre and purchased over 30 perennials and these are going to replace my bedding arrangements of the past.

All my thousands of Daffodils will go too and I will start from scratch again on a garden that has taken me over forty years to get as it is now!

Regarding my two allotments; subject to the return I get from my efforts to date I will decide at the end of the season if I will give these up as well!

I am just totally p**sed off with the eurocrats the PC brigade and the the rip off seed merchants of today who are selling stuff off that in many cases is not fit for purpose!

It wouldn't be quite so bad if I could buy stuff to rectify my problems but you can't


This 'organic' thing has a lot to answer for!

I compare it with the 'blanket' cover the majority have to put up with from the few!

Things such as  Decimalisation, The Common Market, Metrication, Fuel prices, all things that have only escalated prices rather than benefited the masses!

So you see it is not only the compost that is acid I am truly bitter as well.

Thanks guys for letting me get all that off my chest I now feel slightly better!
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: grannyjanny on May 17, 2011, 14:00:47
Sorry to hear you're having problems again Tee Gee. I do hope you don't feel the need to give up your plots. What will your son do for his veg box ;).
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Ben Acre on May 17, 2011, 15:30:09
My plants are ok I buy Cheap seed from these "Cheap" shops, perhaps known brand seed are no good?
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Ellen K on May 17, 2011, 15:31:41
oh TG I am so sorry - don't know the full history of your garden but, well, I feel your pain a little a bit actually.

I have lost all my lovely Daffs this year but it was down to the exceptionally cold winter I believe and at least all the tulips survived.

But I've also blended most of my compost using Moss Peat from Bulrush and I will go out and buy a few bags more before it disappears from the market.   I've used a lot of county tip compost this year and for all its faults at least you know what you are getting.  The garden centre bags - who knows what is in them?

But you are right, it seems as if any old garbage goes in to commercial compost and it will only get worse.

scary  :(
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: BarriedaleNick on May 17, 2011, 15:35:44
Blimey you do sound pissed off but what has decimilisation, the organic movement, PC and eurocrats got to do with the lack of germination of your seeds.
You can still buy traditional peat based compost very cheaply - Wicks sells it for 300 lts for 13 quid.
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: 1066 on May 17, 2011, 16:05:26
Sorry to hear about your plants, but I have to ask what has Decimalisation got to do with it  ???

Which reminds me of a story my mum used to relate. She overheard 2 older ladies in the shop, talking away, when one of them turned round to her friends and said "why don't they bring in Decimalisation when all the old people are dead?"  :D  :D
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: 1066 on May 17, 2011, 16:06:15
Sorry to hear about your plants. But I do have to ask what has Decimalisation got to do with it  ???

Which reminds me of a story my mum used to relate. She overheard 2 older ladies in the shop, talking away, when one of them turned round to her friends and said "why don't they bring in Decimalisation when all the old people are dead?"  :D  :D
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Ellen K on May 17, 2011, 16:19:54
... the bit about Decimalisation was TG trying to end on a jokey note, duh!

(but also thinks the EU is an expensive waste of space).
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Allotment-junkie on May 17, 2011, 16:49:57
the best way to combat losing Brassicas is to have a little seed bed to one side to start them off in , You get Better plants as well like this , It is suicidal to try and get them going  and maintaining them in a Greenhouse Most will suffer from Burn and frazzle up, all you need is a little fleece or netting to protect them
And regarding the Seeds I sowed 200 all year round cauli seeds and 3 have germinated, its not the compost either its the seeds as they were sown side by side in the ground with some cabbages that had a 100% success rate in Germination
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Tee Gee on May 17, 2011, 18:01:08
Sorry if I have confused some of you but after the disaster of last year with a farmer selling me aminopolyprid affected manure and receiving a load of dodgy potting compost I thought all that was behind me.

But then I find this year my plants won' t grow.

Everything I sowed came up as expected( that was the easy bit)  it since I pricked them out my problems have occurrred they just haven' t developed.

For example I pricked out some seedlings out in the fist week in February and they are still the same size today as they were then.

Similarly I potted on some plug plants and these haven' t developed either.

So it's not the seeds it can only be the compost!

So what is angering me is that more and more and this is where the organic ,eurocratic thing is coming in

This recycling is going a bit to far (imho)and some of the stuff we are having to buy is not fit for purpose

That's two years on the trot I have suffered and   I put it down to things like this.

Thanks barriedale for the tip on Wickes but it is a bit late in the day for me to buy in so men more compost I am planning binning the lot( not even composting it)

So sorry folks It just that the whole issue is getting me down


Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Ben Acre on May 17, 2011, 18:05:14
I have never come across this before, seems like a big mystery as to why they died,

Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Jeannine on May 17, 2011, 18:42:22
Tee Gee, now you just listen to great grandma here.

Don't  you dare talk about giving up,your posts are one of the first I read and I am too old to lose that fix now.

If anyone can get there head and hands around what is happening you can.

It is horrible to have to go through all that you have and now another hurdle.

It has to come full circle and |I want to hear the cheery reports when it does.

Hang on Tee Gee, still cheering you on over here.

XX Jeannine

I was hoping you had some experience  of planting rice.. we are still under water here on most of our ground LOL.. but the rain has stopped today.
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Duke Ellington on May 17, 2011, 19:00:49
Sorry to hear this Tee Gee. Last year we spoke about my problems with compost too.

This year I have added a lot of sand to my bought compost and have got much better results. I stupidly didn't add sand to the compost I used to pot on my basil seedlings and all of my basil seedlings died. I remember in discussion with Tee Gee that I was convinced that compost was definitely my problem and the basil outcome seems to prove this.

I read that a lot of bought compost are made up of domestic green waste collection containing a cocktail of ......as Tee Gee says "all sorts"  weed killers and other unknowns etc.

It is a right Royal pain in the butt.

Duke
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: schmelda on May 17, 2011, 19:20:10
I also have had problems with seedling failing to develop properly/survive.


I haven't added any nutrients as they're all in new compost, but I will now give it a go to see if the half dead stuff revives.  I'll use some tea from my veg compost bin (ie worm tea, but without worm input!) and see what happens.
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Digeroo on May 17, 2011, 19:37:01
I have mixed my compost with recycled compost and got some goot results.

This thread was started my mpdjulie so we should be sympathising with her loss.  I would still recommended a high nitrogen feed asap.   I was sure mine were a goner. 
You might just find they pull through.  I am sure my problem was not with the seed because I sowed part of the packet direct and that it doing fine.  Apart from anything the problem plamt seeds came from different packets from different suppliers. 


Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Jeannine on May 17, 2011, 19:53:07
Thanks you are absolutely right Digeroo, sorry Julie I was being very thoughtless there.

I can't answer your question but I am nevertheless really sorry this has happened and I apologise for appearing uncaring.

XX Jeannine
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: davyw1 on May 17, 2011, 21:10:24
Usualy Yellowing of the leaves indicates lack of nitrogen so you could try giving them a drink of Epsom Salts
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Tee Gee on May 17, 2011, 21:16:49
I guess it's me that should apologise to Julie but on answering her question it reminded me of my own problems and what I thought it was and things took off from there.

Could it be that the suppliers are cutting corners?

What's on my mind is; In years gone by when they mixed traditional composts they had there recipes that covered the peat/sand/fertilsers and pH adjustor ratios.

Could it be that replacing peat ( in part) is knocking all their recipes out of kilter?

Are the substitutes they are adding possibly more acid or less acid than peat? And god forbid are they toxic?

I know that with that last bag of compost I bought I noticed some large splinters of wood had White paint on them :o

Now I know modern day paints are often water based but paints of yore often had a high lead / oil content the mind boggles.

OK  I am guessing all this and not trying to scaremonger but in the past if I had a problem I would always try to get answers to them and this problem has not been treated any differently.

This year  I have pricked out my plants 3 times!

The first time was into compost I had made myself with peat,sand and Ji base fertiliser, what I forgot to do in the first batch was add lime.

So in the second batch I added lime and pricked out again but to no avail,I am guessing then first batch took it's toll on the seedlings.

Then I bought some compost (just one bag) to see if this would make any difference and it did slightly but not to the seedlings that had been in previous mixes.

So you see it is not for the want of trying that I am thinking of giving it all up it's just I am short of answers and as things are getting more expensive each year I don' t want to have another year like the last two have been so I am thinking of cutting my losses.

Trouble is after forty odd year of it I don' know what I pass the time on if I am not gardening plus I do do love my fresh fruit & veg.

So once again julie sorry for commandeering your thread and let's hope we both get answers to our problem......Tg
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: goodlife on May 17, 2011, 21:36:13
Tee Gee...I was given a bag of  peat free compost for trial...out of all my bucket crops that one bucket where I used the peat free those beans are really struggling to grow. All others are twice the size compaired those in peat free.. >:( They do not look sickly..just slow to grow...so it is not you...more likely the compost.
All others are grown just ordinary multipurpose and topsoil mix.
Now I'm going to scrape as much as the horrid woody stuff off from the surface and give it a layer of peatbased compost... ::)
Well....I was hoping to start reducing my peatbased compost useage...but as it is ...again..proven useless. Fine for mulching but no good for pot culture.
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: queenbee on May 17, 2011, 23:12:55
Last season I had problems with compost bought from a well know supermarket and diy store, bits of laminated flooring and leather, when I sieved it there was very little soil came out of it. I remembered my dad used to sterilise ordinary soil from the garden in our old oven. I have done this for seed sowing in my microwave and added fine sand. Germination has been very good and no damping off. I added a bit off my compost heap and if this works this year I will be very pleased.
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: manicscousers on May 18, 2011, 09:09:21
Sorry to hear about this, Julie..trouble is, don't know about you, I don't like buying in brassicas from anywhere, club root and all that.
Compost, we had a big discussion about it in 2008, this was what I bought , never again
http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,45701.0.html
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: budgiebreeder on May 18, 2011, 09:35:11
The more i read about this the more puzzled i am.I live in the same town as you T G but i got my compost from  over the border in Lancashire ( took me passport so i could get back into good old Yorkshire lol)its not theseeds as i have tried a few different sowings fom different   companies.Tried diffferent composts as well.i gave up in the end as me old back was cmplaining.
I also understand what u mean bout messing around with things and the organic craze .read today M&S are now gonna give us some tastier tomatoes lol what was wrong with em b4 they altered em all with the hydropinics.... nowt
Rant over cos i feel like giving up en all
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Paulines7 on May 18, 2011, 11:06:18
I moved all my purple sprouting seedlings out of the greenhouse when the weather warmed up a few weeks ago but the next day they were all gone.  I don't know if it was slugs or birds that enjoyed the feast but I will have to sow some more.  The next lot will go under netting with slug pellets around the trays.  I try to be organic but I don't see I have any choice with my next lot.   ::)
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Digeroo on May 18, 2011, 11:41:36
Death brassicas is not excuse to give up TG.  We are relying on you to find the solution.

Thanks for reminding me I have some more brassicas seedlings just put their head up I don't want them hoovered off.  They are in recycled compost so I am seeing how that pans out.  It is growing great beans and courgettes.
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: RSJK on May 18, 2011, 12:01:11
I have had no trouble with my seedlings (so far touch wood  I use Arthur Bowers, Grow Well, Clover and Humix compost and mix all 4 together to sow my seedlings in and to pot on/ Do not get me wrong I do have 1 or 2 plants that do not make it but few and far between.
I never buy compost from the big supermarket chains as I do not trust it.
But in general the quality of compost as gone down I feel.
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Tee Gee on May 18, 2011, 12:36:52
QuoteDeath brassicas is not excuse to give up TG.  We are relying on you to find the solution.

Sorry my brassicas have not 'died' they are just not growing!

My veg has survived (just) but they are sickly looking plants!

I have planted them out and some seem to be recovering but others ?????

Hence my statement I will wait to the end of the season before I decide!


Its my bedding plants that are worst the majority are not fit for anything so these will go to the tip including the compost.

Then again if I do this am I creating the possibilty of buying it back after it has been recycled into the compost I buy next season?  ??? :-\

Regarding me finding a solution I am not sure!

I tried this year by making my own to see if that would help but due to the error I made it didn't work this time but there is always another time!

Having said that I have done a cost on making my own compost and it is working out nearly as expensive as buying it around a fiver a bag (70litres)

Prior to T&M buying out Chempak and upping the price of their products it is not as cheap an option as it once was. I always found in the past I could make my own for around half price but sadly these days have gone!

So another rip off in my opinion which fetches me to the confusion I created by mentioning;

decimilisation, it was a rip off,

europe is a rip off,

metrication is a rip off

eg petrol before the litre it was the gallon and there used to be moans when they put it up a penny a gallon, but now that penny is nearly five times that much when it goes on a litre!

Organic is a rip off

is not what it is cracked out to be i.e. it is not a level playing field.

Once you get your 'organic' license you can use 'chemicals' the only difference from the past is; it is more controlled ( or is it?)

Plus the younger ones that are trying to 'grow there own' sadly do not know any better and buy whats on offer without question, meaning us who are supposed to know have to pay the going rate as well!

I know I should get with it, and live with the times, but are these times better than the past?

I was brought up to believe if it is not broke don't fix it!

But Europe & Westminster try to fix it just to justify their existance it would seem!

Well that all I am saying on the matter!

On reading this through perhaps this article perhaps it should have been published in the 'shed' so if any one wants to add to the debate can I suggest they open up a new thread in 'the shed' and we take it from there........Tg
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: RSJK on May 18, 2011, 12:50:52
entirely agree with you Tee Gee
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: 1066 on May 18, 2011, 13:06:37
Quote from: Tee Gee on May 18, 2011, 12:36:52
but are these times better than the past?

No, just different  :)

Is there any answer for you and others to use seed beds? I can see it working for veg, not sure how it would work for ornamentals though
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Dandytown on May 18, 2011, 13:10:05
I have not had problems with my brassicas but a similar thing with melon plants.  Nice and healthy before being transplanted into the greenhouse bed and looked good for a few days.  Watered at 9pm one night and the next morning they were in the same condition as your brassicas.

Planted cucumber plants straight away and they have been fine and are growing well.

Just don't know what happened  ???
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Tee Gee on May 18, 2011, 13:18:49
I think your problem was here;

QuoteWatered at 9pm one night

Melons a very temperamental to temperature changes!

They wouldn't take kindly to a cool wet bed, you would have been better watering in the morning. This allows any excess water to drain off and the soil to warm up before night sets in.

Its what the experts would call; a physiological problem!
Title: Re: Brassicas are dead
Post by: Dandytown on May 18, 2011, 14:04:37
Thanks Tee Gee.  It makes sense!