Hi there,after the death of a plotholder,who is classed as immediate family for the plot to be handed down to,cheers
I'm 99% certain that tenancies with us aren't transferable. You have to be a joint tenant prior to departure. Hope you're doing okay if you've lost someone close.
It would be their closest relative if the allotment could be handed down, but it doesn't always work that way. I think it is left to the discretion of the committee as to who it passes on to.
I don't think there's an allotment site in the country that doesn't get this wrong: an allotment tenancy is not a non-transferable personal licence, it's property. Whatever the tenancy agreement says, the landlord can't dictate who inherits it, it's disposed of in exactly the same way as every other bit of the deceased's property.
On our site when a plot holder dies it has been passed on to a spouse. I did ask about this as the tenancy is in OH name even though it was me that had had my name down. I was told in the event it would be transferred to my name.
Quote from: Unwashed on February 08, 2011, 18:20:37
I don't think there's an allotment site in the country that doesn't get this wrong: an allotment tenancy is not a non-transferable personal licence, it's property. Whatever the tenancy agreement says, the landlord can't dictate who inherits it, it's disposed of in exactly the same way as every other bit of the deceased's property.
Interesting & at the risk of digressing - is that why you have to give it up if declared bankrupt?
Welcome to A4A TVLess... strangely so am I. That's fairly clear then... Unwashed is almost always right on these things. Certainly that was the jist we were given at the NAGT meeting last Saturday. It does no harm to amke it a joint tenancy before hand if you can...
Our plots are transferable as we have them as shares. We classify 'immediate family' as spouse or son/daughter...we don't automaticly transfer but shares are offered to be transfered and if not taken we refund the value for the next of kin.
After that plot is offered to next person in waiting list..
Quote from: saddad on February 08, 2011, 19:02:53
Welcome to A4A TVLess... strangely so am I. That's fairly clear then... Unwashed is almost always right on these things. Certainly that was the jist we were given at the NAGT meeting last Saturday. It does no harm to amke it a joint tenancy before hand if you can...
we are not allowed joint tenancies
It depends on your site. Most sites are Council-owned and/or run and what Unwashed says is correct. (It usually is!)
But some are set up differently. We're independent and are set up as a mutual society; we're all shareholders and have a right to transfer our shares. In practice, this translates as an elderly member approaches the Committee to transfer the tenancy to a son or daughter. It also happens between husband and wife, when one officially takes on the plot, but the other does most of the work and spends the hours there.
You need to ask the people who rent out the plots, rather than us, as we're all different.
Nottingham City Council are going through a "consultation period" (they are wanting to put up the rent, a lot) and they have published their tenancy agreement in its entirety on their website.
It says you the tenant cant sell or sublet the plot but if he/she dies, it passes just the same as other property:
If a plotholder dies, Nottingham City Council will allow the tenancy of the allotment to pass
to the person who inherits the estate of the deceased, or to someone nominated by the
beneficiary or the executor of the estate.
Full text here: http://www.nottinghamcity.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=23874&p=0]
So (gasps from the crowd): I agree with the great Unwashed, may his geodesic cage stand for a thousand years :)
On our site the plot can go to next of kin - husband/wife/son/daughter only. If the next of kin already has a plot then it goes to next on the waiting list. Any other 'plot sharing' partner has no right to the tenancy.
Our rules allow someone who has had a previous involvement in the plot to take over at the discretion of Secretary and Chair. It's a small site so we tend to have a fair idea who does what. This was changed after discussion in NSALG magazine a few years ago. When a plot holder died we felt it would be wrong if his wife who had often worked on the plot was not allowed to continue.
On the other hand if a parent died but then passed the allotment tenancy on to a relative by leaving it in the will. Then that child could end up having to look after a plot just to go along with the wishes of the parent... or not looking after it because they never wanted it.
I think commensense should prevail Ha Ha
I think you've picked out the important point there. It's common sense.
And if whoever is in charge knows the situation, then: a) the older plot-holder will have had a sensible conversation and transferred it; b) the law doesn't have to blunder in - all relevant facts unknown - and trample everyone underfoot.
Back to my original point: what are the rules on your site tvless? And why are you querying it? Some back-story would be helpful.
Welcome, by the way. We give all sorts of advice here.
Thank you all for your replys,much appreciated,am going to have a word with allotment commitee to try and find out exact rules,allotment been in family for 30 yrs so would like to carry it on,a bit reluctant to give details publicly but would be willing to pm
unwashed,just re read your reply,by that reckoning would it be up to the next of kin to who the plot goes to?
Quote from: OllieC on February 08, 2011, 18:58:40
Quote from: Unwashed on February 08, 2011, 18:20:37
I don't think there's an allotment site in the country that doesn't get this wrong: an allotment tenancy is not a non-transferable personal licence, it's property. Whatever the tenancy agreement says, the landlord can't dictate who inherits it, it's disposed of in exactly the same way as every other bit of the deceased's property.
Interesting & at the risk of digressing - is that why you have to give it up if declared bankrupt?
I don't understand that whole bunkrupt thing, but yes, ownership of real property does seem to be incompatible with bankruptcy at a fundamental level as it goes way back and is certainly in the Allotments Act.
Quote from: saddad on February 08, 2011, 19:02:53
Unwashed is almost always right on these things. Certainly that was the jist we were given at the NAGT meeting last Saturday.
Nice of them to mention me ;D
Welcome tvless - so am I!
the exact quote from the council rules "vacant allotment gardens on a site must be offered by the council or association to applicants on the waiting list for that site kept by the council or association except where the plot falls vacant because of the tenants death where they must be offered to any member of the tenants immediate family who wishes to take over the allotment garden"
Quote from: tvless on February 08, 2011, 22:29:56
unwashed,just re read your reply,by that reckoning would it be up to the next of kin to who the plot goes to?
No. The executors are custodians of the estate and have to divvy it up according to the will or probate. If it wasn't explicitly named (and I doubt it was) it goes to whoever got the residue.
Trevor_D makes a good point. I don't understand how it works with sites that don't simply lease you the plot but kind of let you use it as a benefit of some kind of membership. It's possible that the membership is actually property that goes with the estate, but really I have no idea. Mostly sites will do the sensible thing anyways, but not always, and particularly now plots are scarce.
Quote from: tvless on February 08, 2011, 22:50:37
the exact quote from the council rules "vacant allotment gardens on a site must be offered by the council or association to applicants on the waiting list for that site kept by the council or association except where the plot falls vacant because of the tenants death where they must be offered to any member of the tenants immediate family who wishes to take over the allotment garden"
The rules about offering a vacant plot to the tenant's family is fine, the implication that the plot becomes vacant on the tenant's death is not.
It's like if Auntie Agnes has an arrangement with her neighbour, and the neighbour allows Aunti Agnes to push her wheelbarrow across the neighbour's lawn on any day of the week except Sundays.
The arrangement is with Auntie Agnes. Uncle Umberto isn't welcome to take the wheelbarrow across the lawn, just Auntie Agnes, and when Auntie Agnes departs this mortal coil the permission to cross the nieghbour's garden evaporates into thin air.
Councils tend to think about our tenancies of our plots as personal licences to use their allotments like Auntie Agnes' licence to cross her neighbour's lawn, but in truth our allotment tenancies are as much our property as Agnes' wheelbarrow. A tenancy technically is an interest in land, and in English Law an interest is as close as you get to owning the land - ever since William the Conquerer bagged the lot in 1066 the Crown has, with a few exceptions, owned the whole of England and even freeholders only own an interest in the land. So just as Auntie Agnes' wheelbarrow continues to belong to her estate after her death, so too does her leasehold interest in her allotment plot, and it's the duty of the executors to make sure it goes to whoever it was that Auntie Agnes wanted it to go to.
trying to get my head around this,the executer of the will is another son in law,therefore it is his decision?If so that would be great but my god,all i want to do is grow veg for the table,bloody confusing
off to bed,cheers everyone, greatly appreciated,big thanks to unwashed,goodnight all
I think you've answered your own question Tvless, your rules say to pass on to the next of kin, I'm pretty sure ours doesn't
Again as said, it should be about common sense
If a family member has been a regular for years and known to be part of the plot, pass it on
If all of a sudden somebody has the plot and never been seen before then it would be very unfair to someone waiting on the list for years
If everyone was passed on then the lists would bearly go down
Hope you had a good nights sleep Tvless and the heads stopped spinning and good luck in your growing and hope you become a regular on here
One final point before I go to work, if your helping on a plot, get your name down on the list and you might find you are entitled to one without any hassle
;D ;D ;D
Quote from: tvless on February 08, 2011, 23:27:06
the executer of the will is another son in law,therefore it is his decision?
Not exactly, it is the executor's duty to give the plot to whoever the deceased wanted it to go to, and if the will didn't mention it specifically then it has to go to whoever gets the residue.
So lets say Auntie Agnes dies and leaves in her will everything she owns to her husband Umberto. Cousin Carmine as executor gives the tenancy to Umberto, and the site association don't quibble because their association rules allow the plot to go to close family.
But say Umberto can't manage the plot, so can Umberto now give the tenancy to his friend Frollo? Not so clear. Like Kev says it wouldn't feel right to many allotmenteers for plots to be passed around avoiding the waiting list, and it would likely annoy many landlords too. On the other hand Uncle Umberto is free to give his wheelbarrow to whoever he want's without B&Q kicking off that they sold it to Auntie Agnes and they want it back if Uncle Umberto is not going to use it himself, so what's special about an allotment that prevents Uncle Umberto giving it away as he might his wheelbarrow? Not much actually, they're both just property.
The one legitimate difference is that the landlord can vet her tenants, for example to be sure they can pay the rent or that they live in a certain neighbourhood, but if friend Frollo would qualify for a plot then the landlord doesn't have a legitimate reason to object to Uncle Umberto assigning the lease to his friend Frollo. Uncle Umberto's right to the enjoyment of his own property is even enshrined in the first protocol of the Human Rights Act and a council landlord acts unlawfully if they impose rules on how he can dispose of his property. If it's a condition of the tenancy agreement that Uncle Umberto can't assign the tenancy, or that the landlord has to approve the assignment and can refuse on a whim then likely the term is unenforceable under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.
So at the end of the day Uncle Umberto might possibly be able to give the plot to his friend Frollo, but if the landlord didn't want it to happen it could end in a great big fight with a questionable outcome.
As always this is all just my take on it and it's not a good idea taking advice on an internet forum from an unqualified bloke you've never met, but I hope I've given you some leads to follow up to research yourself.
welcome to a4a, TVless ( we also ain't got one)
Phew! where to start with a response?
In Our Association the answers would be ( land-owning association, btw)
Tenancy of a plot is subject to the person taking a 'share' (25p) in the association.
the share is non returnable, nor transferable. ( rules of association)
therefore, the plot is not passed on 'as a right'
in practice, it's up to the site secretary, if for instance, a son has been helping his dad for several years, and the father died, if the son wanted to, he could take over the tenancy, if he joined the association.
So common sense rules! Sounds good to me.
Our shares are £1.00
And the problem is that our 1910 constitution states that they're both returnable and transferable!
Quote from: Trevor_D on February 09, 2011, 21:01:17
So common sense rules! Sounds good to me.
Our shares are £1.00
And the problem is that our 1910 constitution states that they're both returnable and transferable!
ah, we changed our 'rules of association' at an EGM last year ( Attended by Bryn Pugh from NSALG, prob his last major piece of work B4 he retired)
Thanks for the tip, Tony. It's something we've been aware of for the past four years, but there have been more urgent issues to deal with, so it's always been postponed.
Obviously at some point we've got to bite the bullet and get to grips with the constitution. Getting NSALG on board is a very good idea. (I might ask you for a few ideas if we ever get round to it!)
Of course, if we had a separate section for discussing allotment admin issues, it might come up there....
Quote from: Trevor_D on February 11, 2011, 08:31:24
Thanks for the tip, Tony. It's something we've been aware of for the past four years, but there have been more urgent issues to deal with, so it's always been postponed.
Obviously at some point we've got to bite the bullet and get to grips with the constitution. Getting NSALG on board is a very good idea. (I might ask you for a few ideas if we ever get round to it!)
Of course, if we had a separate section for discussing allotment admin issues, it might come up there....
anything you need help / advice with, email, or post on here, I'll try my best to help!!
of course, if there was a separate section.................................. ;)
Spud section first TONY! :P :P :P