I have just heard on the grapevine that Greenwich Council are proposing significant plot rent increases - in many cases increasing the rent by over 100% :o
Now, you would have thought that such a significant proposal would have been communicated to plotholders by letter. But no. I found out via a local blog which I follow. Further research on other websites revealed that the Council have even held a 'consultation meeting' about the proposal - pity that at least one plotholder who would very much have liked to attend didn't know a thing about it (and I bet I'm not the only one). The whole thing seems incredibly sneaky and underhand.
I'm furious. The rent is due in April - I've been budgeting for a minor increase in rent but not a 100% increase. I just don't know how I'll find the extra money - I'm on a pay freeze, have already had to shoulder significant increases in my train fares and utility bills and will almost certainly have to cope with a rent increase for my flat later in the year. I really don't want to give up my plot having only just got started and having put so much back-breaking work into clearing what was a very neglected plot, but I may well have to give it up if I can't find the extra cash in the next two months. I'm not a happy bunny.
I am interested in you not being told about consultation My husband was receiving a service from our local authority who held a 'consultation process'. When I queried it no one responded to the consultation so there were no objections. Presumably because no one knew about it.
I've got a horrible feeling that's what's happening here, too.
Information about the consultation appears to have been published in one of the local newspapers. However, distribution of the paper is patchy at best and I've never seen a copy. In any case, as a plot-holder I'd expect to a) be notified formally about the proposals and b) sent an invitation to the consultation. I suppose that this wasn't done as any plotholders who found out about the proposals were bound to attend - and object!
I'd be interested to hear whether others are having similar experiences or whether it's just Greenwich Council being particularly 'difficult'.
We have this in Nottingham too:
http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/news/Price-allotments-Nottingham-triple-years/article-3131443-detail/article.html (http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/news/Price-allotments-Nottingham-triple-years/article-3131443-detail/article.html)
I need to find the consultation on the Council website and fill it in this week.
I'm quite annoyed, we've only just got our allotment and it is costing a lot of money (raised beds, plants, seeds) and is very hard work. Long term I think it's worth it but if the allotments become too expensive to keep it will have been hard work for nothing.
I'm fairly certain that you can pay it as an Agricultural rent... (IE in four installments on quarter days) but it would be better if the rise can be reduced/avoided...
Maybe Unwashed has a better understanding of the law on rents... but as a "passive resistance" campaign it has its merits... ::)
this post gave me the thought of checking my local council for any 'consultations' that might be happening - the website said 'no consultations' at the moment. I feel I ought to keep an eye on it though!
Hello English Rose and others
I was at that meeting with Greenwich Council. My site and one or two others knew why there was a meeting, but most of the people who turned up (one invite only per site) had just had a letter mentioning "allotment issues". The Council have had a link on their main webpage about another "consultations" but only this one meeting so far on allotments, which they wanted to be the only one.
This is about to become a long post - but I think other Greenwich plot holders may be interested in this email correspondence I have had recently with Greenwich Council about the "consultation". It was before the meeting.
I have taken out a little bit, [and my explanations are in brackets] but PM me if you really want to see the whole thing.
Subject: RE: Cabinet Meeting on 14th December 2010 & allotments
From: Daisy Cairns [aka ConfusedRhubarb]
To: Chris Roberts [and various other senior councillors and staff of Greenwich Council]
Sent: Tue Jan 11 22:37:44 2011
Subject: Cabinet Meeting on 14th December 2010 & allotments
Dear Cllr Roberts [the Leader of the Council]
I am writing to you about the Cabinet Meeting on 14th December which I attended along with a number of other people who had an interest in allotments because we wanted LBG to reconsider the increase in allotment rents. We were pleased with the outcome. [they agreed to "consult" on the increase in allotment charges]
...
In the meantime I was forwarded an email from Frances Dolan saying "Yes it was agreed by Cabinet that we would consult on the proposed charges. All allotment holders will be consulted through their representative groups, and through the Friends Groups"
and sent another from Robert Goring about arranging a consultation meeting, which said that "Councillor Fahy has requested that the invitation is made to each of the allotments committees".
[I ask why their formal record don't show the agreement to "consult" - this has been amended - sort of]
...
I was pleased that the Cabinet had taken our representations seriously and that they were to be dealt with in a democratic manner, but since then I have become increasingly worried that those promises are being watered down,
Firstly that only committees were to be "consulted" - this is not a time of year when people are likely to be at the allotments as much, so this makes it difficult for committees and friends groups to get feedback from their allotment neighbours via word of mouth contacts.
Secondly that officers are unwilling/unable to provide information to my allotment society Chair.
And thirdly that other allotment societies have not in fact been contacted - this was confirmed by the secretary of Pippenhall allotments earlier today.
On December 14th I believed that you and the Cabinet sincerely intended that allotment holders would be fairly consulted, have a reasonable opportunity to be heard, and for this to be actually taken into account when decisions were being made. Please could you confirm my faith in LBGs democratic systems by arranging for the record of decisions to be corrected, and personally ensure that all allotment holders are going to be consulted. Time is running out for everyone concerned and I realise you are all under a lot of pressure.
Daisy Cairns
Kidbrooke Park Allotments
[I didn't get a substantial response so sent more emails asking specific question such as]
Please can you let me know how many confirmations your officers have received that people are coming to the meeting next week, and from which sites? Do the LBG managed sites have noticeboards? Have LBG used these to notify plot holders at all? About the rent increase, or about the meeting - or about how to make their views known if they are not allowed to attend the meeting due to number constraints? Were letters or emails sent and to whom? What did the letters say? And crucially when were all these things done? Did LBG make these communications with any consideration of a timescale that would reasonably allow time for "representatives" to canvas views from their co-allotmenteers?
[and eventually I got this reply]
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Goring
To: Daisy Cairns; John Fahy
Sent: Wed, Jan 12, 2011 4:15 pm
Dear Daisy,
I have been asked to provide a response to your email questions sent to Councillor Fahy this afternoon.
I can confirm that letters were prepared for allotment representative on 23rd December 2010. Unfortunately there was a delay in them being sent from the Council's post room over the Christmas and New Year period and were only actually sent from there last week. The only exception to this was the email invite I made to you on 23rd December and asking you to nominate 3-4 representatives from your committee to attend.
The letter asked site representative to attend the meeting to discuss allotment issues. The Council's Allotments Manager phoned around yesterday to ensure that site representatives had received their letters and representatives from all sites have confirmed they will be attending the meeting next week.
We haven't used the notice boards in the allotment sites to notify allotment holders about the meeting or proposed price increases as we intend to consult with the site representatives next week with wider consultation to follow.
I hope this information is helpful.
Please don't hesitate to contact me if you require any further information.
Kind regards,
Robert Goring
Assistant Manager (Parks & Open Spaces)
Greenwich Council
Tel: 020 8856 0100
________________
thanks for reading this far - ConfusedRhubarb
PS - the increase is not just over 100% - it works out as 199% - that means it will triple.
What was the rent, and what is it going to be after the increase?
When is the rent due?
Have tenants been notified by letter that the rent is to increase?
What does your tenancy agreement say about the council increasing the rent - post the terms please.
I wouldn't get hung up on consultation. Councils very rarely actually want to know what their pond-scum think.
It is unlikely that the Council can impose a rent increase without giving at least a year's notice, and then only if the tenancy agreement allows it to happen - Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 - but it might take someone to refuse to pay and let themselves be taken to court to prove the point.
Actually challenging a large rent is difficult, though Harwood v. Reigate and Banstead BC suggests the council cn't increase allotment rents out of line with their other leisure services, but the argument rested on legislation that has ben partially repealed so it wouldn't be an easy thing to argue.
Best defence is to demand self-management.
Quote from: Unwashed on January 27, 2011, 19:56:56
What was the rent, and what is it going to be after the increase?
...
Best defence is to demand self-management.
Hi Unwashed - thank you very much for your response - i'm not sure i would have bothered reading the whole of my post.
answers as follows
rent is £6.70 /rod =£67
rent will be £20 /rod = £200
due on 1st April
no letters sent to tenants - only a vague letter to site reps inviting them to the meeting on "allotment issues"
and for the other questions - our site is self managed already - though english rose probably isn't as only 3/15 sites are.
the really stupid part is that council have the power to set the rents but no right to collect it from us. we are allowed to carry it over to spend on maintenance of the site or something like that.
the council would have just upped the rent if we hadnt made a fuss at a cabinet meeting in December when someone hadn't tipped us the wink.
I just want to put the info somewhere public so that the non self managed sites can find it.
(rant over - sorry)
and thanks again
ConfusedRhubarb: thank you for taking the time to post your letter. I'm now thinking about writing to the Council myself to express concern about what's going on.
I've seen nothing at our site about the consultation even though I've been down there fairly regularly. I presume that our site rep is the Secretary, although I don't know this for certain as I'm not sure how our site is managed (I've seen/heard nothing from anyone since I got my plot last August). I therefore can't help but wonder how anyone can represent our plotholders when they haven't got a clue what we think! I also wonder whether this affects the validity of the 'consultation' process.....
As for rent, I'm currently paying £33 p/a for a five rod plot. The council is talking about increasing the rent to £20 per rod, which would take my rent to £100. That doesn't sound like a lot - less than £10 per month - but I really will struggle to find the money by April as I hadn't been budgeting for such an enormous increase and have very little disposable income. I'll dig out the tenancy agreement later today but I suspect that there's a clause in there somewhere that allows the council to get away with what's being proposed - there always is :(
I think some councils are trying to increase rent so high that people will not pay and eventually give up their plots.... Allowing councils to apply to sell off "unused allotment sites"
i have attended two recent meetings at greenwich council,over the proposed allotment increases.
it looks to me that the council are pretty adamant re quite large increases,
but there are quite a few people in opposition to it.we are looking at the allotment act 1950.
also a judicial revew.to see if the proposed increases are disproportionate to other rises.
last evening i attended a local councillors who are in the process of organising a petition
to present at council.
Can you post the tenancy agreement please. Unless there is a term of the agreement that allows the landlord to increase the rent then any increase is unenforceable.
If the term isn't fair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 then any increase is also unenforceable.
Please post the tenancy agreement!
Can you also post the self-management license agreement because I'd like to know who the landlord actually is - self-managing site association, or council. Only the landlord can set the rent for the tenant, though the self-management agreement may well oblige the site association to pay the council whatever it demands, but that's a different thing altogether.
Only bit of case law I'm aware of that might help is Harwood v. Banstead and Reigate BC where the court found that the council had unfairly discriminated against allotmenteers by increasing rents for allotments by more than the fees for other leisure services. However, the judgement depends on some legislation that I believe has been repealed, though it might still be possible to use it as authority.
Judicial Review is possible, though you'd need to be quick - delay looks very bad - but it is potentially very expensive so not something you want to do unless you don't mind being bankrupted or someone else is paying, because it's never easy to say if you'll win or lose.
It may be possible to seek declaratory relief under CPR Part 40.20 in the county court which will be much cheaper thn JR in the high court.
Best of luck - £20/rod is completely and utterly unacceptable. It will exclude the poorest and make allotmenteering a middle-class preserve. It's completely wrong.
Hello Mr Laurence!
I'm so pleased to know how to get in touch with you! And that's great news about the petition. I'm sure there would be people on my site, and EnglishRose and others who would sign the petition so please let us know how - I'm about to send you a Private Message with my email and postal address. I think some of my site are in touch with one or two people at other sites too so we could spread the message.
Have you had any of the information that LBG promised to send yet? Our chairman hasn't, but did have a phone call from S. who told him she was putting them in the post. Isn't it interesting that LBG do it that way, when S's normal method of communication is email and it will be slower to arrive and more expensive to send it by post.
Some one on another forum suggested writing to the Mercury and the Newshopper - congratulating them on covering the story
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/8819025.GREENWICH__Consultation_begins_on_allotment_rent_increases/
http://www.mercury-today.co.uk/news.cfm?id=2892&searchword=allotment
And its been in the Sunday Times twice, and the Evening Standard so if anyone out there likes writing letters...
http://www.amateurgardening.com/home/allotment-rents-set-to-rise/
Oh Dear. ;) Greenwich Council's allotment price increase is in the news again!
I like this bit....
"National secretary of the Society of Allotment and Leisure Gardeners, Donna McDaid, said some plot rents had gone up "considerably".
"Rent increases vary," Donna said. "But even if local authorities put allotment rents up by 50 per cent, it wouldn't make much of a difference to councils' funding situations."
Mistress of understatement!
PS As far as I can tell, £200 for a 10 rod plot would make Greenwich Council's allotments the most expensive council run allotments in the country. Does anyone know different?
CR, if you're interested in challenging the enforceability of the rent increase under UTCCR 1999 would you like to post the tenancy agreement?
i am waiting for more information to come regarding the petition,but it seems it is underway.
there has been quite a lot of publicity in the local and national papers regarding the proposed
increases.
the proposed increases are generating a great gounndswell of upset and general unrest.
Quote from: Unwashed on January 30, 2011, 23:05:57
CR, if you're interested in challenging the enforceability of the rent increase under UTCCR 1999 would you like to post the tenancy agreement?
Hello Unwashed - I appreciate that you are trying to help. But i'm doing this to raise awareness and try to make contact with other Greenwich plotholders as I think that is the best thing I can do to stop this.
Your tone is rather abrupt and feels overly forceful which makes me a little wary. With respect, i don't think i will be posting the terms of my associations tenancy agreement on this public forum, as it is not the same as other allotment sites in the borough. We are lucky to have a solicitor plotholder so although i appreciate the legal pointers, I will not be making any legal approaches to the council except through them.
Other sites may not be so lucky, and I expect all the council managed allotments will have the same agreement, so perhaps you should direct yourself towards them as you are so keen to see a Greenwich allotment tenancy agreement.
ATB with your struggle in Newbury.
Pardon me I'm sure your majesty. :P
Unwashed - One will consider your request. ;)
BTW someone has posted the date of the meeting on another forum.
Apparently it will be "at the Town Hall on the 9th of February at 6pm."
No-one at my site has heard from the council though. ???
Greenwich Council have finally sent our allotment chairman the date of the next meeting - next Wednesday it is!
They've also sent out papers which supposedly have the info that was promised about costs and costings, budgets and the discretionary rates. I haven't been sent anything personally so it seems that council don't think the ordinary plot holders (a mere 755 of us) need to be consulted.
If anyone wants a copy, pm me your email address and i'll forward it along. I haven't read it all yet, but it better be good, especially as it has taken Greenwich 2 weeks longer to send out than they promised.
humph.
Hi I'm one of a few plot holders who lives outside the borough.
In 2005 when I applied for a plot I was basically told to take my pick from 50 or so plots that had been lying idle for years "you couldn't tell where one plot started or finished" They even gave me the first year free as the site was so bad
I recently found out that they intend to hike the rents up to £400 for non residents and quite frankly I felt physically sick when hearing this.. They no longer offer plots to non residents, haven't for a year or more
If Greenwich council get their way with this immoral price hike it looks like I'll be handing my key back in April .. I cant help feeling victimised for not being a resident
Its breaking my heart :'(
have sent a pm
Hello Crafty Parsnip
I'm really sorry to hear that you are thinking of giving up your plot. I can imagine how much hard work you must have put into it. Just because you aren't a resident doesn't mean you aren't allowed to have a say - there are definitely other people out there trying our best to talk the council into making it a more reasonable rise. But the more public pressure there is the better. I thought your post was very moving, perhaps you could send a letter to the Mercury or the Newshopper?
best wishes
and you are not alone
Confused Rhubarb
we at new eltham have finaly got the petition up and running
i cannot seem to be able to get the petition blank on the allotment 4 all webbsite
i will bring some sheets of the petition to the council meeting on wednesday.
what is happening re the legal side over the outragious incease,i have been informed
its against the law?
it will nice to be able to concentrate on doing some digging.in stead of allotment increases
Apologies for not participating in the discussion recently - my laptop hard drive died last weekend and I've been without internet access for a bit.
I've still heard virtually nothing about the proposed increases via official channels. I popped down to my plot yesterday and there was a short flyer pinned on the noticeboard listing the proposed increases, but no information whatsoever about consultations or even who had put the notice up. I've got no idea who's been invited to represent our site or how to get hold of them. It sounds as though some sites are quite well organised - ours isn't one of them! If I hadn't heard about the increase via a local blog and then started a thread here, I'd still be none the wiser about what's going on.
I'd really like to sign the petition and will PM JohnLawrence shortly to find out how to do so. I'm also in the middle of penning a letter to the Council - I doubt it will do much good, but I pay my Council Tax so I might as well try holding them to account!
hello john and english rose
John you might find people aren't very keen to sign your petition simply because it is only about those two particular plots. I think you should try an online petition. Barnet have got one, and so have Brent. Both councils are trying to raise their rent to £170 for a std plot.
English Rose - try and come to the meeting on Wed evening this week - 9 Feb. I've just sent you an email with some info provided by the council. Forward it to anyone you can think of who has a plot, or could give a copy to a plot holder.
Someone from our plot is bringing a sort of sign in sheet for each plot/plotholder to put down their contact details so we can all get in contact more easily.
There are people looking into the legal side - under the Allotments act 1950 and a piece of case law called something like Harwood vs Reigate & Banstead Borough Council. Somewhat unsurprisingly Greenwich have refused to answer questions or discuss this. But remember that we are on self managed sites, so it is a different thing and different rules apply - i really do think that all the council managed sites need to get in touch and get organised somehow.
I've been sowing sweet peas - and burning stuff - and spreading manure. Happy times.
And going to allotment committee meetings - not so much fun ...
Oh - nearly forgot the most exciting allotmenty news of the day - our site was visited today by film crew from http://thehorticulturalchannel.info/ - the greenwich rent increase is going to star in their opening show. I think the nice welsh bloke said March 6th - They have a competition where you can win a shed and a greenhouse on their website. worth a go i reckon.
Hi. Went to meeting. Good result for self managed which is my site. Not so good for most sites tho. "offer" is that increase will be staggered over 4 yrs - but no specifics actually given. ??? People should still carry on protest. Lobbioy Greenwich cabinet and esp leader Chris Roberts. Also keep up media pressure. Good luck
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/8845252.GREENWICH__Allotment_rent_increases_may_be_illegal/
just went up on net few minutes ago.
i,together,with about 50 other allotment holders attended last evenings meeting
with the greenwich council higher archy,for the third time,to so called,discuss the
forthcomming allotment increases.we again did not acheive much.
the proposed increases are still too much.the main item was the increases
will be fazed in now over 4 years instead of 2 years.
As ConfusedRhubarb says, the situation looks reasonable for self managed sites but not so good for sites managed by the Council.
The Council is looking to reduce the allotment subsidy from 80% to 33% over a four year period. In practical terms, that means that we will be paying £20 per rod in four years' time. There seems to be no room for negotiation on this point - the original proposal was to jump straight to £20 per rod this year, so the Council regards the four-year plan as a 'compromise' solution.
The Council is very keen on the idea of sites moving to self-managed status. Self-managed sites would be able to set their own rents and manage their own maintenance - which is a Good Thing for people like ConfusedRhubarb. Unfortunately it seems that there isn't much interest in this option at our site according to our site rep (who I finally managed to meet last night). This means that we'll stay under Council management and will have to pay whatever rent is set by the Council.
One of the more controversial suggestions put forward by the Council was that plotholders could sell their surplus produce to a commercial enterprise identified by the Council, with the profits going straight to the Council for re-investment into the management of allotment sites. I'm not quite sure how they square that with the regulations set out in the Allotment Act 1950, but never mind......
The Council is also proposing to set up an allotment panel of six-eight people who will meet with Council reps on a regular basis to discuss allotment issues. This sounds like a great idea in theory, but when some site reps aren't overly keen to communicate with plotholders about the current proposals I can't see that the new panel is going to be terribly representative, especially if it's not elected.
All in all, I'm feeling rather gloomy about the whole situation.
why do the council want to charge so much?
self-management sites cost Nil to the tax-payer, and about £2 per rod to the tenants, what's so difficult?
The reason the Council wants to charge so much is because a) their funding has been cut significantly as a result of the Comprehensive Spending Review and b) their accountants are obsessed with percentages and feel that the Council can't justify subsidising a leisure activity by 80%. The fact that they'd raise more revenue by increasing parking charges within the borough by 4-5% than they would by increasing allotment rents by nearly 400% to £20 per rod seems to have escaped their notice (despite being pointed out at the meeting last night).
I have no objection to the idea of self-managed sites; indeed, I'd quite like to go down that route. However, I get the very strong impression that I'm in the minority. On my site, for example, the site rep thinks that it's too difficult/time consuming to gather opinions from individual plotholders about the proposed increases (hence why nothing's been put up on our noticeboard), never mind getting people together to self-manage the site! A lot of people are also quite concerned about the initial set-up costs of going down the self-management route, especially when the Council's not willing to make any commitment about releasing funds to cover capital set-up.
Are there significant set-up costs in going self-managed?
When self-management so clearly works I don't have a lot of sympathy for allotmenteers who can't be asked to do the work and want the state to support their hobby at 80p in the £.
I wouldn't have thought it was beyound the whit of man for the sites in Greenwich to federate so that administration could be pooled, because if you have the nous to organise a protest, you certainly have everything it takes to manage your own sites.
our lot have Me, (general Secretary) a Treasurer, and a committee of management, all volunteers. each site has a secretary who collects rents, lets plots etc.
we do pay a bit in stationary / postage etc, but not a lot.
shouldn't be too much hassle / cost to set up. ;) ;D
the reason a lot of folk don't go down the self-managed route is 'cos they want everything done for them, and cant be a*sed to help themselves. :(
Hello people - and hello again EnglishRose :)
The Greenwich allotment holders had their final "consultation" meeting with the Council last night. Although the council only told one person from each site about the meeting there were a fair few plotholders there. Most will have been disappointed as the council is still planning to increase rents on Council sites, but has agreed to stagger it over 4 years. They didn't give specific prices, but will publish them on their website on Mon 7 March as part of the papers for the Cabinet meeting on Tue 15 March. That meeting is open to the public - check out the website for how to arrange to speak or ask a question or to send a written "representation".
Here are a few points which Cllr John Fahy did agree to at the meeting and later by email
* The representative from your finance team agreed to provide details of how central overheads have been allocated to the Leisure and Southmere Lake budgets so as to make the comparisons with the allotments fair.
* It is proposed that an allotment tenants panel will be set up in order to have quarterly meetings with the Council in order to discuss matters relating to the sites. This needs further clarification as to how it will operate in that it will be difficult to have a panel which will contain a member from each site in that this would involve 17 people. In addition more detail needs to be provided generally as to the role and constitution of the panel
* The self managed sites will be permitted to set their own rents subject to certain constraints that will be agreed shortly.
* You will be writing to all tenants at non self managed sites to say that you are proposing that the rent will be increased on phased basis over 4 years with only limited increases in years one and two but with higher percentage increases in years 3 and 4.
* The reason for the rent increases being phased in is to encourage sites to move to a self managed basis. In order to help with this move if sites wish to take advantage of it you agreed to consider giving site management associations "seed core" funding in orser to allow them some security in being able to meet unexpected costs that might arise.
* In the letter to non self managed tenants you agreed to indicate when the actual proposed increase would be posted on the Council's website, the address of the relevant webpage will also be provided and you will set out the procedure for making representations to the Cabinet meeting in March.
And there are few other promises that Cllr Fahy has been reminded about in writing.
7) Robert Goring's piece of work was to produce a report showing the actual maintenance works and associated costs carried at each of the council managed sites (i.e. how often grass/hedges were trimmed, etc) and the theoretical schedule of works and associated costs which are laid out in the Service Level Agreements for each site.
8) You made an emphatic "total guarantee" that a 50% concession would continue to be applied for retired people as per the current set of rules "in perpetuity".
9) You acknowledged that a site newly setting up as self managed would not only need "seed core" monies as below for unforeseen circumstances, but also for predictable foreseen circumstances. These would include at the least, somewhere secure to store maintenance equipment, the equipment itself, and costs for communication of the changes - ie printing & distribution and premises hire for meetings.
10) Also may I suggest that you distribute contact details for the relevant site reps in your letters to plotholders as several attending last night did not know who these people were.
Self managed sites like mine have been making the most noise in the local media and have now been allowed to set their own rents. If you are from one of the council managed sites and would like to get in touch please send an email to diggin4victory@gmail.com. We can also put you in touch with other council managed sites.
Quote from: Unwashed on February 10, 2011, 16:06:27
I wouldn't have thought it was beyound the whit of man for the sites in Greenwich to federate so that administration could be pooled, because if you have the nous to organise a protest, you certainly have everything it takes to manage your own sites.
Therein lies the problem!
There hasn't actually been an 'organised protest' to date. Most of the noise thus far has been made by the self-managed sites; reps from the Council-run sites have attended the 'consultation' meetings but not all have circulated information to their plotholders or grouped together to co-ordinate their objections. Feelings are running high, but from the conversations I had with a couple of Council-run site reps, I have the impression that they felt they lacked the experience and time to manage a co-ordinated protest (I might be wrong on this point, but that was the impression I got on Tues evening.....)
I'd happily step forward to run the protest myself but I can't because I work for central government and am therefore precluded from running campaigns against local government policies (I think I can participate, but leading is another matter entirely!).
Anyway, that's the protest side of things. On the subject of self-management, I'm not quite sure how to proceed as I'm not a site rep. I think it's a great idea but my site rep's not in favour of the idea and I don't want to step on any toes as I'm still very new to the site. I have suggested that it might be a good idea for our Site Rep to organise a meeting for all plotholders so that we can discuss the issue (I even volunteered to put up a poster on site and help organise the meeting), but I don't think it's going to happen at the moment. It'll be interesting to see how things progress over the next few months.........
What the Council needs to do is write to all the allotmenteers and let them know that they want their site to go self-managed, and if it won't they're going to be charged the full commercial rate for the council to manage them. And then if the site doesn't already have a site association then ideally the Council would call a tenants' meeting so that the site could form a management committee.
The Council could also usefully move things along by encouraging the site associations to form a federation to pool the administration as tonybloke described.
The NSALG provide help and support so any site association would do well to get them involved if the Council hasn't already got them on board.
Then it's up to the allotmenteers, and if they can't get their act together they end up paying the full commercial rate. Simples.
If only Newbury Town Council was like Greenwich Council. :-\
How much do they charge the users of the playgrounds and football fields?
:)
nowt for playgrounds
there is a charge for some football fields i think...
subsidy to swimming is going up by 3-4 %
This might be interesting to Greenwich plotholders
freedom of information request with no of plots - total rents - and no of plotholders for each council managed site in greenwich
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/allotment_leases_south_london_gr#incoming-152363
At the last 'consultation' meeting, the Council representative promised to write to all plotholders to advise them of the proposed increase. We're now in March, the rent is due in April.......and I've received precisely nothing from the Council. If I hadn't picked up the news via a local blog, I'd still be none the wiser about what's going on.
Time to write a very stiff letter to the Council! Not that they will take any notice. I contacted my local councillor a few weeks ago and had the most pathetic reply which didn't address any of the points I'd made and was about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
Sadly there doesn't seem to be a united campaign against the proposals. As I've said before, it's not something I can lead myself due to conflict of interest but I'd have happily helped out if someone else had got something up and running. This really doesn't bode at all well for the Council's suggestion that we all go self-managed: if we can't organise a protest campaign, how on earth are we ever going to run our own sites? People obviously don't have the time/skills/willingness to take on a bit of responsibility even when it's in their own interests. It's a huge shame.
People obviously don't have the time/skills/willingness to take on a bit of responsibility even when it's in their own interests. It's a huge shame
I've been following your story with interest..unfortunately I've got no real help in offer other than my sympathy :-\
Our site is private but the situation in general is not that much different comparing the members in put. It allways falls to few individuals who have to make the effort for doing everything..there is never too many, if any offers for somebody new to step to committee or other roles.
I also think it is not about having skills as such or time..it pure lack or willingness/laziness.
Yes it does take some of those individuals time..but it ain't full time job..not even part time.
Perhaps advertising how 'little' people pay in other sites would raise interest.. ???
I also am following this with interest. I must say I think that the information response would be funny if their ineptitude was not costing tax payers money. Having been an accountant I find their information systems poor in the extreme, and how can they have any controll of costs when they have so little idea of what is going on. They appear to be muddling through. Seems odd do they even have enough information to send out any invoices at all?
I love your expression about chocolate teapots English Rose. I have written to my MP several time and the response always seems to miss the point and is very simplistic and rather patronising directing me a some simple solution. If it had been that easy I would not have written to my MP at all. Yes there are a lot of chocolate teapots around.
Quote from: EnglishRose on March 02, 2011, 08:16:57
At the last 'consultation' meeting, the Council representative promised to write to all plotholders to advise them of the proposed increase. We're now in March, the rent is due in April.......and I've received precisely nothing from the Council. If I hadn't picked up the news via a local blog, I'd still be none the wiser about what's going on.
Time to write a very stiff letter to the Council! Not that they will take any notice. I contacted my local councillor a few weeks ago and had the most pathetic reply which didn't address any of the points I'd made and was about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
Sadly there doesn't seem to be a united campaign against the proposals. As I've said before, it's not something I can lead myself due to conflict of interest but I'd have happily helped out if someone else had got something up and running. This really doesn't bode at all well for the Council's suggestion that we all go self-managed: if we can't organise a protest campaign, how on earth are we ever going to run our own sites? People obviously don't have the time/skills/willingness to take on a bit of responsibility even when it's in their own interests. It's a huge shame.
Tell me again, what is it that you want to protest about? Your council are giving you the choice either to self-manage or to pay their full administrative costs. That sounds very fair to me. Rather than complain, why not organise the self-management?
Quote from: Unwashed on March 02, 2011, 14:45:06
Tell me again, what is it that you want to protest about? Your council are giving you the choice either to self-manage or to pay their full administrative costs. That sounds very fair to me. Rather than complain, why not organise the self-management?
I'm very concerned about the Council's lack of a proper consultation process and the fact that they are introducing quite significant increases without giving plotholders adequate notice.
To take the consultation process first. There is absolutely no information on the Council website to indicate that a consultation is in progress or indeed to indicate that they are proposing to increase plot rents. No information has been sent to plotholders either - the only way that I found out about the proposals was via an independent blog. I understand that the Council has some very difficult decisions to make, but they made a commitment to do so only after fair and open consultation. I'm not sure how the 'consultation' process that has taken place can be considered to be either fair or open when a lot of people don't even know that it's taking place! There might have been some very good alternative ideas out there that haven't been fed into the process because people haven't been given the opportunity to contribute.
Secondly, the lack of notice really worries me. I can just about afford the proposed increase in rent. But there are plotholders out there on fixed incomes who will be budgeting to pay a certain amount for their rent in April and for whom the significant rent increase will come as a very nasty surprise. I raised this point at the last consultation meeting and the Council grudgingly promised to write to all plotholders to give them some notice about the proposed increase. That hasn't happened and we're now less than a month away from the rent due date. The increase might seem 'easily affordable' to a Councillor but I can just imagine it causing distress and upset to some plotholders. As Mr Knightly would say, 'Badly done, Greenwich Council, badly done'.
As for organising the self-management, I've already made an offer to our Site Rep to explore self management options and to co-ordinate a meeting to discuss it all. That was turned down. I'm not quite sure what to do next. If I push anything through without the support of the Site Rep, that's only going to start splitting the site into factions – hardly a good start to self management! At the moment I'm doing lots of reading / research on self-management so that I'm well informed; I might then try again in a couple of months' time to see whether any interest can be generated. And yes, if the majority of the site eventually decides that it wants self management, I'll happily roll up my sleeves and muck in. I'm not being lazy, just trying to tread carefully. There's a difference.
Quote from: EnglishRose on March 03, 2011, 08:17:40
Quote from: Unwashed on March 02, 2011, 14:45:06
Tell me again, what is it that you want to protest about? Your council are giving you the choice either to self-manage or to pay their full administrative costs. That sounds very fair to me. Rather than complain, why not organise the self-management?
I'm very concerned about the Council's lack of a proper consultation process and the fact that they are introducing quite significant increases without giving plotholders adequate notice.
To take the consultation process first. There is absolutely no information on the Council website to indicate that a consultation is in progress or indeed to indicate that they are proposing to increase plot rents. No information has been sent to plotholders either - the only way that I found out about the proposals was via an independent blog. I understand that the Council has some very difficult decisions to make, but they made a commitment to do so only after fair and open consultation. I'm not sure how the 'consultation' process that has taken place can be considered to be either fair or open when a lot of people don't even know that it's taking place! There might have been some very good alternative ideas out there that haven't been fed into the process because people haven't been given the opportunity to contribute.
Secondly, the lack of notice really worries me. I can just about afford the proposed increase in rent. But there are plotholders out there on fixed incomes who will be budgeting to pay a certain amount for their rent in April and for whom the significant rent increase will come as a very nasty surprise. I raised this point at the last consultation meeting and the Council grudgingly promised to write to all plotholders to give them some notice about the proposed increase. That hasn't happened and we're now less than a month away from the rent due date. The increase might seem 'easily affordable' to a Councillor but I can just imagine it causing distress and upset to some plotholders. As Mr Knightly would say, 'Badly done, Greenwich Council, badly done'.
As for organising the self-management, I've already made an offer to our Site Rep to explore self management options and to co-ordinate a meeting to discuss it all. That was turned down. I'm not quite sure what to do next. If I push anything through without the support of the Site Rep, that's only going to start splitting the site into factions – hardly a good start to self management! At the moment I'm doing lots of reading / research on self-management so that I'm well informed; I might then try again in a couple of months' time to see whether any interest can be generated. And yes, if the majority of the site eventually decides that it wants self management, I'll happily roll up my sleeves and muck in. I'm not being lazy, just trying to tread carefully. There's a difference.
So your approach is to moan about the situation here without doing anything about it?. I also posted earlier about challenging the fairness of the rent increase on the basis of the lack of notice.
Swindon is looking to get all sites to switch to self-managed to try adn save costs too.... problem is at the moment it's all centrally managed.... added to which my site is quite small (<30 plots) ... hopefully we'd be able to tack ourselves onto the big site that's 30 yard down the track on the other side, adding a rep to their committee.... fingers crossed though.... we have a fairly active association too, so hopeulyl we'll manage the transition OK and with a bit of luck actually reduce (or at least freeze) our rents....
Quote from: Unwashed on March 03, 2011, 10:42:19
So your approach is to moan about the situation here without doing anything about it?. I also posted earlier about challenging the fairness of the rent increase on the basis of the lack of notice.
[/quote]
Clearly you've not bothered reading everything I've said. As I have said before and say again, I cannot run a campaign against the proposals myself as it would be in breach of my terms of employment. However, as a private citizen I have:
a) attended the consultation meeting and put my concerns direct to the Council
b) sent a follow-up message to the Council asking them to explain why they have not actioned a clear commitment to inform *all* plotholders about the proposed changes
c) written to my local councillors, challenging the rent increase and drawing their attention to my concerns about the consultation process
d) made an offer to my Site Rep to explore self management options on his behalf and to co-ordinate a meeting for plotholders to discuss the situation
e) contacted plot-holders at other sites to find out whether there are any challenges or campaigns which I might be able to support behind the scenes
I'm not quite sure what else you think I ought to have done, given my personal circumstances. And, as I said in my last post, I haven't quite given up despite the knock-backs: I don't yet know what to do next, but I'm actively exploring potential options to find out what I might be able to put forward in a couple of months' time without upsetting people.
The reason I continue to post here is partly to keep anyone who may be interested updated on what little I know about the situation and partly in the hope that by talking about the situation I might establish contact with people who are actively involved in local challenges/campaigns/self management investigation schemes that I can support.
Quote from: EnglishRose on March 03, 2011, 12:45:04
Clearly you've not bothered reading everything I've said. As I have said before and say again, I cannot run a campaign against the proposals myself as it would be in breach of my terms of employment.
No need to get on your high horse, I've read read what you've said. And my question is again, why do you want to organise a protest when you could organise the self-management? You don't need your site rep's consent, and if you want to accept your site rep's right of veto then that's up to you, but I'm sure you'd do better if you were constructive and talked to the Council about how you could help introduce self-management on your site.
Quote from: Unwashed on March 03, 2011, 12:56:12
And my question is again, why do you want to organise a protest when you could organise the self-management?
Site management will take several months to set up, at the very least. Greenwich Council is proposing to increase rent as from this April - i.e. in one month's time. The Council has not yet told the plotholders about the proposed rent increase (despite a commitment to do so). Likewise, the Council has not publicised the fact that sites can go down the self-managed route: I only know about it because I happened to find out about the consultation independently and went along to the meeting. If the Council is claiming to offer people an alternative to paying the extra rent (i.e. by going down the self managed route) then they should ensure that all plotholders are aware of the options.
As it is, the total lack of communication will mean that a) the rent increase will come as a nasty shock to quite a few people, b) when plotholders do find out about the increase, they won't know that there's an alternative to paying the Council a lot of extra money and c) plotholders won't have any time to organise self-management if they do somehow find out about that option and want to pursue it. That's why I feel that there is a need for some sort of a protest campaign right now.
[quote author = Unwashed link=topic=65307.msg670738#msg670738 date=1299156972]
You don't need your site rep's consent[/quote]
But when I rang the Council after the consultation meeting to find out how self-management might be introduced at my site, that's precisely what I was told.
And that is a jolly good illustration of the muddle that we're in at the moment. We have the Council proposing to increase rents enormously but not telling everyone about the proposal. When those who do know/find out about the situation protest, they are grudgingly told that their sites can always opt for self management. However, not all site reps are in favour of self management, the information isn't passed on to individual plotholders and (according to the Council) there doesn't seem to be any way of introducing a discussion on self-management if the site rep isn't in favour. It's not a good situation at all.
Just a suggestion. Plot activity should be increasing now. Could you put up notices on your site about the proposed increases and put forward a date, time and venue for plotholders to meet. A petition could be started and given to your site representative to take forwards to the Council. Another request to the site representative, signed by as many as possible, would be why the site representative is not supportive of self management.
Regards
Bluecar
hi - this is for english rose
If you emailled/phoned who i think you phoned then i think you need to take it to the next level. from what others have said you won't find her very helpful or proactive - and this is a new thing for LBG - the other self managed sites have been so for ages.
I would start by doing what bluecar suggests on your own site, then by emailling / telephoning round the other numbers on that list I sent you - there were a couple who seemed quite interested in SMgmt. If you can get a few people together then LBG will take more notice.
You should email cllr f - and copy in robert goring and lesley whatshername. tell cllr f that some (where some = one for now!) of your site holders are interested in self management. If you feed him some suggestions and then ask him to advise what your next steps would be, then they might well just agree to your suggestions.
Im not sure exactly what the site rep's do, but i think it is mostly about showing potential new plot holders round, and I know it is completely voluntary. I think it's understandable that your site rep is a bit wary - because he he prob knows that everyone will expect him to take a big role. SMgmt is a bit of a burden on the committee members - and like all voluntary things the workload will not be fairly spread - some people will never bother. And, even if you've just spent months working to save them from a massive rent increase you can still find them griping and whingeing rather than gratitude >:( :-X
BBC1 prime time television do a feature on allotment rent increases and encourage people to fight them
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00z5f54/The_One_Show_02_03_2011/
Woo Hoo!
Well done Highcombe allotments
and thank you to Rosemary Green
We saw it on TV
http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,65946.msg670642.html#msg670642
oops sorry digeroo.
No worries I am just pleased that allotments and veg growing is getting as much publicity as possible.
Greenwich council will be deciding on the allotment rent increase on Tuesday March 22.
http://committees.greenwich.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=14000
this link is to their report.
they are now planning to raise the rent from £6.70 up to £13.20 and then the next year to £20.
they are recommending that self managed sites be allowed to set own rent, and also do make quite a big deal about how they are planning to get more allotments to be self managed and so lower costs.
This is all theoretical of course because since the consultation meetings the allotments officer has actually been very obstructive won't give any info to plotholder except the 18 unelected site reps- some of whom haven't been seen for over a year.
There is again a lot of spin in the council's presentation of it, so some people, perhaps from Newbury, who haven't actually been to the meetings or involved directly, might read it and get the impression that the council are actually being deliberately helpful, and are offering guidance and support to sites who are thinking about self management. This is far from true and I can't see the councils attitude turning around very quickly.
Still - slow progress is being made - i can't make it to the meeting on March 22 but will be emailling the cabinet members who will be voting - their emails and phone numbers can be found on this page if anyone else wants to do the same
http://www.greenwich.gov.uk/Greenwich/YourCouncil/YourRepresentatives/Councillors/
Quote from: ConfusedRhubarb on March 15, 2011, 22:17:28
There is again a lot of spin in the council's presentation of it, so some people, perhaps from Newbury, who haven't actually been to the meetings or involved directly, might read it and get the impression that the council are actually being deliberately helpful, and are offering guidance and support to sites who are thinking about self management. This is far from true and I can't see the councils attitude turning around very quickly.
I mailed one of your councillors last week to see if I could help. Didn't get a reply. Seems like your councill are a bunch of dicks after all. Who'd 'ave thunk it. :-\
lol :D
one may consider you for one's birthday honours list
Hi
I read somewhere that rents are supposed to be such as can be reasonably expected for the tenant to pay - which is vague at best. Also when rent is increased aren't the tenancies automatically stopped, like council house tenancies in that case? You renew your tenancy and pay, or not and leave then. Does anyone know?
I suppose it depends too on what rent means: if it is just for the land, or if you get services like water, mowing the paths, manure, ploughing. rubbish removal, fencing and fence and gate maintenance thrown in? Water I once heard they cannot charge for if they are reselling it (that I was told would be illegal), but they could cover water charges and no more - so worth asking?
I think local councils are more or less out of control. Judicial proceedings can be fought against you at the tax payers expense with well-feed barristers, and you may have to sell your house to meet their costs if you lose.
Perhaps the new Localism Bill will let us take over services from them?
Quote from: EnglishRose on March 02, 2011, 08:16:57
At the last 'consultation' meeting, the Council representative promised to write to all plotholders to advise them of the proposed increase. We're now in March, the rent is due in April.......and I've received precisely nothing from the Council. If I hadn't picked up the news via a local blog, I'd still be none the wiser about what's going on.
Time to write a very stiff letter to the Council! Not that they will take any notice. I contacted my local councillor a few weeks ago and had the most pathetic reply which didn't address any of the points I'd made and was about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
Sadly there doesn't seem to be a united campaign against the proposals. As I've said before, it's not something I can lead myself due to conflict of interest but I'd have happily helped out if someone else had got something up and running. This really doesn't bode at all well for the Council's suggestion that we all go self-managed: if we can't organise a protest campaign, how on earth are we ever going to run our own sites? People obviously don't have the time/skills/willingness to take on a bit of responsibility even when it's in their own interests. It's a huge shame.
Does anyone know who the council representative was who promised to write to all plotholders at the second consultation meeting? I am attending the cabinet meeting tomorrow evening and have asked to speak and have been advised that the chair, Councillor Brookes, will allow me to do so, thus it would be useful to know who broke their promise. I have also asked for a number of questions and comments I have made about the proposed charges to be circulated to all cabinet members.
hi- the name is Ms Frances Dolan, Director of Culture and Community Services
I asked Cllr Fahy if they would send all plotholders the notes of the first meeting, financial information (they hadn't given us), and notice of the date of the next meeting.
Cllr Fahy was quite eager to say yes, turned to Ms Dolan and said "Frances can we do that?"
She said that they could, and specified that it would be early the following week.
In the event they sent the info out 3 1/2 weeks later, barely in time for the meeting, and only to one person per site - ie only 18 out of the 770 they had promised.
good luck tomorrow night
i have attended all three "so called council consultation"meetings.
what has been acheived, nothing.the council has ridden roughshod
over the allotmenteers of greenwich.they have done precisely what
they said they were going to at the first meeting.
there are,we are told 770 allotments,in greenwich.the most attended
the second meeting,this was approx. 25 allotmenteers present.
the council claim they have consulted everybody properly.this is not the case.
the only step left to us is to approach the ombudsman.
several people at the parkview/southwood allotments are going to give up.
it is all very sad.
john lawrence
Hi EnglishRose... you might find the link below will help. It relates the successful outcome of our battle with the Town Council and how we approached it, and has been quoted in The Times and on BBC1. Hope it helps, John
http://allotmentheaven.blogspot.com/2010/11/increase-in-allotment-rents.html