Our allotments association have mismanaged our large site by allowing it to be used for storage of building materials and a variety of rubbish which includes asbestos, chemical drums, old tyres, batteries and there are several large open water tanks. The business people regularly dump stuff on the site and dispose of it by burning.
One of their large fires contained a quantity of asbestos which showed in the ashes as a white snow with visible fibres. The association had the plot ploughed and is now let.
The local council sent a letter to the association making a formal complaint about the mess and told them they are in breach of the lease and must clear up the mess. The association have ignored the council.
The association applied for a car park on the site, which was refused by council planning department, but the association have gone ahead with a car park anyway.
The association evict tenants with weedy plots but ignore the large number of derelict plots which should be cleared and put back to cultivation.
There is a waiting list of more than 50.
In September 2009 I made a formal complaint to the local council, the landlord, about the mess and the asbestos burning incident.
This resulted in the association making serious allegations of theft against me and since then they have attempted to evict me twice even though their allegations are false and without any evidence whatsoever.
The association have carried out a personal vendetta and smear campaign against me and their latest threat is a court injunction for trespass if I remain on my plot.
I am not going to give up my plot without a fight.
The local MP, local newspaper and the council are all now involved.
The association in my opinion has acted unlawfully throughout and at no time have they considered my rights and their duty of care to look after the plot holders and the land.
The association operate in secret and take decisions behind closed doors and have become a dictatorship. They have refused to provide details of the constitution, tenancy agreement and minutes of meetings.
During 2010, the chairman, trustees and site manager have all resigned and the Committee are now few and desperately trying to hang on to their power.
We have concerns that the association funds are dwindling rapidly but we are unable to find out why.
We are now forming an action group to get these people out and clean up the allotments.
I would welcome anyone's views on this very sad story, which is an example of how badly devolved management can go wrong.
If there are any asbestos experts out there, please let me know.
I have plenty of video and photo evidence of the asbestos fire and derelict plots.
I can only sympathise :(
But I know that the first question you will be asked is whether the site is private or council owned?
Anne
And whereabouts are you?
sounds like you have put in to place plenty of good measures already,hope this gets sorted and peace reigneth over your site for all concerned once again
You need to contact the NSALG for legal advice... :-X
The allotments are council owned land which is leased to the association through a lease agreement which does state that the land must only be used for allotments and no business uses are permitted.
Also the lease states that no car parking is allowed on the land and no car parking spaces may be established.
I am an NSALG member and they are aware of these problems.
Does anyone know the correct lawful procedure to remove the last remaining management who are mainly pensioners age about 74 and should have gone long ago.
I am a young 64 year old pensioner, determined to enjoy my allotment.
Can anyone advise the correct lawful procedure to vote the 'management' out? Bearing in mind that we do not have a copy of the Constitution?
Most allotment associations have agms where there is an election for management committee members.
If it was me I would call an EGM, you need to inform the committee and have 9 plot holders (that's what our society need to have one) to call one. If you look up an EGM you will see what you can do. I would also inform the council of your intentions. Hopefully you have the council on your side.
Sinbad
Thank you Sinbad. we have at least 12 plot holders so far, so we will discuss the idea of an EGM.
I am not sure about the council as they have been very quiet and not showing much interest.
Our allotments site is the only one in the borough with a devolved management and the other 12 allotment sites are council managed and they are well run.
Do the council or the bank have a copy of the constitution. Is the number of people required for an EGM normally a certain percentage of members?
Who does have a copy of the constitution? Each member should. It ought to have a provision for an AGM with election of committee and provision for and EGM if (off the top of my head I think it is 9 members for us but could vary depending on the size of the site) if enough members request it.
Ask for a copy of the constitution. You are entitled to have it.
The council and your committee must have the constitution. I could find mine tomorrow if you like but think Digeroo could be right about the percentage of members.
All members should have a copy of the constitution when they take up a plot on a devolved site.
Also your site must have insurance and all plot holders are entitled to a ' duty of care', which having and burning asbestos on the site doesn't sound very good from the H&S aspect to me, might be worth looking into that.
As members of your association you have the right to view your constitution,
so a number of you go to the hut/shop and demand to see it and make it quite clear that you are not leaving till you do. If they threaten to call the police then encourage them to do so as members you have the right to be there legally, if the police do attend then they should assist you in allowing you to read/photograph the constitution. Before you call an EGM you need to view the constitution to find out how many members it takes to call one.
Draw up an agenda with the points for discussion IE; Election of a new committee.
You need to get the number of members (they must be members) required to sign the proposed agenda and submit it to the secretary he should then call a meeting within 28 days.
If they do call a meeting then all who signed to call the EGM MUST attend otherwise the meeting can not go ahead.
At the same time as you submit the proposed agenda give the committee a letter signed by all the members that if no meeting is called the members will take it that there is no pressent committee and will change the locks on on the hut/shop etc and a new committee will be formed.
Remember only what is proposed on the agenda for an EGM may be discussed so get it right.
If the pressent committee have allowed asbestos to be tipped on the allotments then they have broken the law as you need a licence. This is also an environmental problem so contact them.
You also have the right to view the association accounts if they refuse then threaten them (in a Nice way of course ) that if you are not allowed to view them then you will get a solicitor to apply for possesion for them to be audited by an accountant.
Thank you all for your helpful advice.
As the association have refused us a copy of the Constitution, I have asked the local council to obtain a copy as they have a right to see it as I understand.
Members are not allowed to see any documents and they are not allowed to attend Committee meetings or see the minutes.
Apart from this, we are most concerned about the flagrant abuse of the land with various materials being brought onto the site and either dumped or burned in large fires.
The Borough Council are well aware of this as they have been onto the site on may occasions and know about the asbestos etc. But they have not enforced the lease, which they should.
Meanwhile we have an allotments site which is being spoiled and plot holders are being intimidated and bullied if they speak out.
Also like me they are threatened with eviction.
Back in the summer, there was a rumour that the association had changed the constitution to protect the management from personal liability if they were to be sued. Of course I cannot verify this.
Quote from: mahonia on December 13, 2010, 10:47:22
Thank you all for your helpful advice.
As the association have refused us a copy of the Constitution, I have asked the local council to obtain a copy as they have a right to see it as I understand.
Members are not allowed to see any documents and they are not allowed to attend Committee meetings or see the minutes.
Apart from this, we are most concerned about the flagrant abuse of the land with various materials being brought onto the site and either dumped or burned in large fires.
The Borough Council are well aware of this as they have been onto the site on may occasions and know about the asbestos etc. But they have not enforced the lease, which they should.
Meanwhile we have an allotments site which is being spoiled and plot holders are being intimidated and bullied if they speak out.
Also like me they are threatened with eviction.
Back in the summer, there was a rumour that the association had changed the constitution to protect the management from personal liability if they were to be sued. Of course I cannot verify this.
firstly, you are ENTITLED IN LAW to see / have a copy of your constitution (have a chat with nsalg)
'phone the environment agency to report any dumping / treating of waste on your site (up to £20 K fines)
keep us informed of progress (we're a trunky lot)
rgds, Tony
QuoteBack in the summer, there was a rumour that the association had changed the constitution to protect the management from personal liability if they were to be sued. Of course I cannot verify this.
I would not have thought that this was possible. I do not think any consitution can protect you from personal liability in the case of mismanagement. To change the consitution would need an EGM.
Of course members are entitled to see documents. If nothing else they are probably bound by the freedom of information act.
'An Act to make provision for the disclosure of information held by public authorities or by
persons providing services for them ...'#
But you are members so should certainly be entitled. Suggest you ask politely in writing.
Asbestos is very dangerous stuff. I would be very concerned that the entire site is contaminated. Suggest next time there is a fire that you call the Fire Brigade. We had a builidng site opposite our house and they kept burning things and in the end left a fire burning one Saturday morning with the smoke blowing in our direction. The fire brigade not only dealt with the fire but agreed to notify all sorts of people and there were no more fires. It was lucky I called them because it flared up suddenly just before the Fire Brigade arrived.
I reported the asbestos on the fire to the council environment protection team and they came to the site straightaway and told the association management not to burn waste and to dispose of the various materials including the asbestos at the council recycling plant which deals with toxic waste. The environment protection team sent a letter with instructions to the association.
However the association went ahead and had the fire. I am unable to establish who did the burning and if they had permission, but the fact is I have been trying to get the association to ban all fires. The allotments are on the east side of the town with housing on two sides and homeowners are not happy with the smoke and they have made complaints but they are ignored.
Following the fire and later the 'cover up' by ploughing the plot, I asked the council to investigate and they promised in a letter that they would let me have a copy of their report.
That was 6 months ago and in spite of reminders they have not responded.
I was on the allotments this afternoon and I learned that more people were being evicted merely because they had weedy plots. I looked at the plots and in my opinion they were still under cultivation and had winter crops. I was told that the 74 year old lady who is acting chair has decided she wants a plot for a summer bbq and another for selling produce. She is the one who does plot inspections.
After the chairman resigned back in May, the lady decided to promote herself from secretary to acting chair.
you really need to get a copy of your association constitution!!!!
this MUST be your first priority.
rgds, Tony (General Secretary, GY&GAALtd)
They cant evict you without a court order, stand your ground and make it clear that you are not moving without one. They will have to apply through a solicitor to get a court order and no judge will issue one unless there is good cause and i dont think having weeds in your garden would be good enough.
Get your fellow plot holders to make a stand, you are within the law on what i sugested erlier.
The asbestos burning alone is a serious offence and I don't think the H&S executive would be to pleased if it got to their ears,
Quote from: Mr Smith on December 13, 2010, 20:27:57
The asbestos burning alone is a serious offence and I don't think the H&S executive would be to pleased if it got to their ears,
sorry to be a pedant, but isn't asbestos fireproof?
Quote from: tonybloke on December 13, 2010, 21:12:06
Quote from: Mr Smith on December 13, 2010, 20:27:57
The asbestos burning alone is a serious offence and I don't think the H&S executive would be to pleased if it got to their ears,
sorry to be a pedant, but isn't asbestos fireproof?
You tell me, but burning asbestos is a bit silly and should be disposed of it the correct fashion, :)
oh dear sounds like you have a royal mess to sort out.
See if your local council has got an allotment officer who can act for you which might make this less 'personal' although i dont see how to stop that now. You say the council is the landlord have you approached them about setting up an alternative allotment association?
Each person you have spoken to who has a plot, give them a pro forma letter which asks in writing for a copy of the consititution and minutes of the last AGM and any EGM including any minutes showing where the current officers have been voted in. Then get all of these individualy or as a pile sent registered mail with a signed for eliment so they cant say they have not received any request. Make sure you give them a deadline as to when you want this i would say 14 days.
Do you know where there bank account is held? If so contact the local branch and inform them that the association is acting contry to there consitution. They will have a copy of the consitution as they would have needed this in order to open there bank account. Ask them to freeze the account and to see if you can get a copy of the consitution from them bring evidence to show you are a tennant. You never know :) Ask the back to request a recent AGM minutes (explain they have not had one, it would state in there consitution that they should do this yearly and ask the bank to clarify who the officers are via minutes of the election) IF THEY MAKE THESE UP THATS FRAUD AND YOU HAVE THEM!!!
Good luck
Quote from: Mr Smith on December 13, 2010, 22:05:23
Quote from: tonybloke on December 13, 2010, 21:12:06
Quote from: Mr Smith on December 13, 2010, 20:27:57
The asbestos burning alone is a serious offence and I don't think the H&S executive would be to pleased if it got to their ears,
sorry to be a pedant, but isn't asbestos fireproof?
You tell me, but burning asbestos is a bit silly and should be disposed of it the correct fashion, :)
Do you have evidence that they are taking money for letting people dump stuff ??
Thank you Mr Smith for your advice about the asbestos matter.
I do need to take it further as the Borough Council are not dealing with it and furthermore a friend has told me about another local land contamination where a farmers field was polluted by timber fencing which had been treated with an Arsenic based chemical treatment, presumably a banned chemical. Also in this case, the Borough Council have not acted or brought a prosecution.
The Borough Council's website paints this picture of their duties and responsibilities and the Acts and they have special mention of Environment Control and Land Pollution, but their words are not supported by action.
Tomorrow is eviction day but I am not going and rather looking forward to the association appling for a court injunction as they threatened in the eviction notice.
Has anyone heard of this sort of threatening behaviour before on allotments?
I have heard of this sort of thing before.
One suggestion- forgive me if you are already doing this- please write everything down, keep records of everything you do, write and say and the reponses -or lack of them.
You are very unfortunate in having a council which seems useless, but I should have hoped the NSALG are helping you.
Anne x
Quote from: mahonia on December 14, 2010, 12:48:04
Tomorrow is eviction day but I am not going and rather looking forward to the association appling for a court injunction as they threatened in the eviction notice.
Has anyone heard of this sort of threatening behaviour before on allotments?
We have actually done it and successfully but it was not done as a threat its an action that you state will be carried out.
If they are going to carry the eviction the first thing you should receive is a letter from their solicitor informing you what he intends to do should you not leave the allotment ( that costs them money). The next action would be informing you that the solicitor has applied for the eviction order(that cost them money) then if it is granted the court date should you loose then you pay ALL the costs should you win then they pay the costs.
I would suggest you take some photos of your plot ASP as evidence to the condition of your plot ensure you do not break any rules or give them any ammunition that can put before a judge, as i said he needs reasons to issue a an eviction order.
What a wretched mess.
Mahonia, you've complained about several things here. What do you want to achieve from this? I assume you want to take control of the site association?
Complain to the Environment Agency about the asbestos and burning.
To get an injunction to exclude you from the site the site association will most likely have to prove that you're not a tenant, and you'll be invited to make a defence. Do you have a tenancy agreement, and do you have receipts for the rent you've paid? Have you behaved reasonably - you haven't been aggressive have you? Applying for an injunction isn't an eviction.
You said the trustees have resigned?
Does the site association not have an AGM and elections?
By the " Association " do you mean the committee? If so, the simple thing to do is call an EGM and vote them off. You do then have to vote on a new committee. As the council are the landlords they need to ensure their byelaws are adhered to and the fly tippers and their abetters ( the committee ) are brought to book.
I have been both watching and keeping out.
As part of the management of a self managed site. I am not comfortable with this one sided senario.
There are bits missing and other bits are not falling in place......
Any one else feel the same?
Quote from: PurpleHeather on December 14, 2010, 19:03:30
I have been both watching and keeping out.
As part of the management of a self managed site. I am not comfortable with this one sided senario.
There are bits missing and other bits are not falling in place......
Any one else feel the same?
Yes PH.
Thanks Unwashed.
From you..It carries weight.
Quote from: mahonia on December 14, 2010, 12:44:03
I do need to take it further as the Borough Council are not dealing with it and furthermore a friend has told me about another local land contamination where a farmers field was polluted by timber fencing which had been treated with an Arsenic based chemical treatment, presumably a banned chemical.
most of the 'tanalised' pressure treated woods that folk purchase for fencing / decking / shed bases etc containg Arsenic compounds http://www.delston.co.uk/tanalised.htm
I've never heard of a farmers land being polluted by this method, where/when was this?
rgds, Tony
by the way, 'mahonia', where in the UK are you?
good question tony......who what and where???
Re: asbestos burning. The ashes of the fire contained a lot of pieces of asbestos with loose fibres and white ash. I was told that asbestos explodes in a fire and fibres are released into the air.
I have been told also that asbestos can be taken up into plants growing on the plot and some vegetables take it up more than others.
If you read my initial post you would note that the association made serious allegations of theft against me and these allegations were made soon after I reported the derelict plot and asbestos incident to the Council.
This was over a year ago and they have tried to use the allegations as a reason to evict me.
Naturally I asked for the evidence but of course there isn't any so their allegations cannot be substantiated.
They tried to evict me in January 2010, but I stayed put and carried on gardening as normal. In July when the rent was due they deliberately did not collect the rent, so I just sent it to them anyway and they accepted it.
Now in November they are trying again but now threaten an injunction.
My feeling is that they would need to apply to the County Court and then I would just explain all in defence and ask for costs.
As you can see it is a very sad mess and not helped by the lack of action by the Council.
Although it is Statutory Allotment land, I have my suspicions that the council have their eyes on it for housing. They have already built on other allotments in the borough.
What do you think?
Of course this is one sided. Anyone on here asking for advice is one sided. We can only supply information, support and sympathy. It is not our place to judge whether the complaints are right or wrong that is for others.
I find it very disappointing that those people who are in favour of associations seem unable to believe that sometimes things are not working well. Mahonia has concerns and we should be supportive.
How did they accept the rent money?
Mahonia, where in the UK are you?
your local council should have a copy of your associations constitution, I'll happily make a FOI request to see this if you can't / won't for fear of further intimidation.
when you paid the rent last year, did you get a receipt?
the association seem to be bullying you, but we can only help if you provide us with more info.
rgds, Tony
Thank you for your support and advice.
I can only put my side of the story to you, but it is significant that the main officers of the association resigned and nobody came forward at the October AGM to fill vacant posts. The Association is just limping on with the the 74 year old lady acting chair, secretary and treasurer in his 70's and a couple of other committee members.
It is dying anyway and needs a fresh start.
They must realise that the end is near and don't want to go without a fight.
There are 220 plots on the site but there is no community spirit and no communal activities and folk are just too scared to speak out especially after they saw what happened to me.
There are a small group of us who have got the local newspaper on board and we hope they will publish an article about our situation.
The newspaper reporter has visited the site this week and has seen for himself the dereliction and builders materials etc. much of which has been 'covered up' now with tarpaulins to keep it out of site.
This matter is about principles rather than any personal issues. The fact is that the allotments are in a run down state and being abused by some plot holders who are running businesses and they have brought materials onto the site which are in no way 'allotment items'. It is very upsetting to see people being harassed and later evicted for having less than perfect plots while along side their plots there are the derelict ones. It is not acceptable and I am sure you would all agree with that.
For example, this month an elderly lady was evicted from her plot which is a lovely fruit orchard, which has dereliction all around her. The committee wanted to use the plot for a 'summer bbq' area.
In another post, I expressed my very real concern that we could be at risk of losing the allotments to housing development if we don't clear the mess as the council may well look at it as a 'change of use'.
Has anyone a view on this?
Mahonia, I'm sure you'll understand our reticence to wade in on your behalf. Yours is one half of a story and it's not entirely impossible that you're the villain of the piece and to encourage you would not be fair on the other allotmenteers on your site, not least your hard-pressed committee.
I have to say I'm not at all sympathetic to your suggestion that your 74 year-old chair needs putting out to grass because of her age. And when you tell me that no one - and I take it this includes you - came forward at the October AGM to serve on the committee then you pretty much exhaust my support.
That said, I'll help you how I can, because no one needs strife on the allotment.
Where are you. I'm sure some kind of personal mediation is a much better way forward here than litigation.
It seems disappointing that no one came forward to be part of the committee. To me seems like a good opportunity for some involvement. Are people concerned that they will become responsible for the past? I think in the circumstances you outline I myself would be very wary.
It certainly seems wrong to me that if people object they are threatened with eviction. Doesn't that sound familiar unwashed?
I presume there is a lot of apathy amongst the 220 plotholders who probably moan but don't do much else.
Changing an entrenched committee in any organisation can be difficult. I think that the best advice so far is to talk to NSALG. Can you get the soil tested?
mahonia seems reluctant to disclose their location. why?
can i suggest that if 'mahonia' will not even divulge their location, this thread should stop.
Well Mahonia is a young 64 year old and it could be a case of not reading the complete replies i know that i sometime miss a line.
Why is her location so important no one will be going round to investigate..........i think?
I don't quite understand why Mahonia is being subjected to this negativity. If she does not wish to give her location surely that is her right.
Quote from: Digeroo on December 15, 2010, 16:06:30
I don't quite understand why Mahonia is being subjected to this negativity. If she does not wish to give her location surely that is her right.
oh, it is his/her right not to divulge his/her location, but it would be easier for the forum to help if we at least new which council to approach about their allotment association constitution!
without a bit more info, I don't see how the forum can help any further?
Thank you all for your help and support so far. I would prefer not to let you know which town I am in at this point in time.
The local newspaper should be running the story shortly and when it does I will let you know and you could form your own opinion.
Some of you have suggested that I may be to blame somehow. Well, yes I could have just got on with my gardening and let things carry on as they were and turn a blind eye to the dumping and the burning and the unlawful evictions.
Some people in life make a stand and try to change things for the better, but I did not expect to be at the receiving end of a malicious campaign of lies. That is very heavy handed behaviour and very harmful.
After all allotments are supposed to be a place where we can quietly and peacefully and safely enjoy our love of gardening.
I am not making a personal attack on the management committee, but rather I do not like or accept their behaviour and lack of care about us plot holders and the land.
Of course, committees are made up of volunteers and give their time and efforts free of charge. But in doing so, they take on duties and responsibilities which they may not appreciate and understand but they do have to operate within the law and within their remit.
If like myself, you are NSALG members you would read in their magazine articles about really great allotments where community spirit thrives and people help each other.
We want our allotments to be like those. Not too much to ask is it?
In reply to the question of payment of rent, I sent a cheque payable to the association in a stamped addressed envelope. They cashed the cheque but did not send my membership card nor did they send me a receipt.
Its all very nasty and spiteful.
Remember I am evicted today but I am going to my plot tomorrow to pick some great carrots and parsnips and a little more digging.
No doubt my presence would be noted and I will wait and see if they apply for the injunction which they threatened to do.
I would prefer it if they spent the time and money clearing some of the mess.
Wish me luck.
Quote from: mahonia on December 15, 2010, 20:37:31
. QuoteThey cashed the cheque but did not send my membership card nor did they send me a receipt.
Your check book stub is your receipt
QuoteNo doubt my presence would be noted and I will wait and see if they apply for the injunction which they threatened to do.
s.
They do not apply for an injunction they apply for an eviction order
And i wish you the best of luck
Also your bank statement will list the number and amount of the cheque as well as the date the funds were paid out.
Thank you for your helpful comments.
Much appreciated.
Does anyone know what the correct procedure is regarding the trustees and the lease. As I said before, the two trustees have resigned from the management committee so does this mean they are no longer trustees?
If so, does this mean the lease is no longer valid as it is a contract between the landlord and trustees.
Having come up against problems with an association I would recommend keep plugging away with the council assuming they are the ultimate owners of the land? I kept plugging away with them, attending council meetings, requesting meetings with all parties etc and very patiently waited for them to happen with the occasional letter chasing it up. Eventually I resorted to making a formal complain to the council about our treatment and the lack of response on the associations part and that did the trick and so far I've had no further problems.
Also if it does go to court make sure your record keeping is very good now. Take loads of photos as evidence, keep a diary of all incidents etc so you can present it to the court and the judge. It really pays in those circumstances to be as best prepared as you possibly can. My hubby and I recently took on our district council re some monies they said we owed and won simply because we were better prepared than the numpty lawyer the council had employed ;D
r.e. the dumping and burning of waste on your site, this is not a matter for the council, but for the Environment Agency http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/
you really need to contact them about any waste issues.
folk need to have waste transfer licenses, and waste treatment licenses for any and all waste transported or treated (this includes burning)
large fines are involved for non-compliance
keep us posted of any developments
rgds, Tony
With regard to the Trustees, they don't need to be on the mnagament committee. In point of fact, they remain Trustees whether they like it or not unless the council allow them to be removed from the lease, for which a charge of around £100 is normally payable as a new copy of the lease has to be produced.
I will contact the Environment Agency regarding the land pollution.
The Borough Council owns the allotment land.
Regarding the lease, what happens if the trustees are removed from the lease and nobody else is willing to be a trustee to replace them. I do not see in the circumstances that anyone would want to be a trustee especially as the association are in breach of the lease terms and the Council have made a complaint in writing to the association and trustees regarding the builders waste.
Looks like another mess to me.
I am not concerned too much about threats of injunctions etc, as I have done nothing wrong and I am not in breach of my tenancy agreement. Mind you, I don't have a tenancy agreement and they won't let me have a copy.
i only have one thing to say at this point,why havnt you contacted the NSALG? I beg your pardon in advance if you have siad you have and ive missed it in the thread
Re: NSALG, I am a member and I am in touch with their legal advisor.
Posting on this forum is very helpful because we are allotment people rather than lawyers and you have a wide experience of allotment problems, which has shown in the replies.
I am sure some of you have either had personal experience of this kind of problem or know someone who has.
There are many people on the allotments who are very concerned that the association are acting beyond their authority and using the association's money to bring an action against a member.
I am not sure if an Unincorporated Association can bring an action.
The association's money belongs to the members as I see it, so surely the members should have some say as to how it is being spent.
There are a lot of derelict plots to clear and funds should really be used to get them cleared up by professional contractors.
For some reason there is no will to do this.
I've seen situations like this, and they often turn round as soon as the person causing the problem is dealt with. Usually you find that they've been bullying everyone else for so long they haven't the will to stand up for themselves, so someone has to do it for them. It only takes one, but it can be a long haul.
I do not think that resigning as Trustees takes away any sort of liability in the case of misconduct.
You do not need to have a piece of paper for there to be a tenancy agreement in place. You pay you dig there is a tenancy agreement.
Banks no longer return cashed cheques and now normally charge for a copy.
Sounds as if you have quite a struggle on your hands.
Quote from: mahonia on December 16, 2010, 16:08:51
There are many people on the allotments who are very concerned that the association are acting beyond their authority and using the association's money to bring an action against a member.
The association must act within their constitutional powers but that will certainly include evicting a tenant if they are acting in good faith. If you have evidence that the association are being malicious then you can probably bring this up in court as an abuse of process, but the court might not agree and then you'll come over as unreasonable yourself and that won't help your argument at all. It's almost always best to assume good faith.
Before the association apply for an injunction they will need to have complied with the civil procedure rules pre-action protocol which obliges them, amoungst other things, to provide you with any documents they will be relying on and they'll need to include in that bundle their constitution, the lease, the trust document, the minute where they resolve to seek the injunction, and I would expect there to be documentary evidence to support their application for an injunction such as written complaints against you or whatever, and if any of that is missing you can ask them for it and any other documentary evidence you need to support your defence. If they don't follow the protocol the court will likely kick them into touch before it comes to court, and if they can't provide those documents you have a strong argument to deny the injunction. Given those documents you can prepare your defence.
As part of the pre-action protocol you are both expected to have made a serious effort to resolve the situation without litigating, and if you can't evidence that effort the judge may well send you away to try before she'll hear the application. You would do well to make a genuine effort to negotiate with the association and resolve your issues through mediation.
Quote from: mahonia on December 16, 2010, 16:08:51
I am not sure if an Unincorporated Association can bring an action.
Yes, it can. Well, actually it's the association's officers who bring the action personally because as you allude an unincorporated association has no legal personality of its own, but it's not a particularly important distinction.
Quote from: mahonia on December 16, 2010, 16:08:51
The association's money belongs to the members as I see it, so surely the members should have some say as to how it is being spent.
They do, though the democratic election of the association's officers at the AGM.
Quote from: mahonia on December 16, 2010, 16:08:51
There are a lot of derelict plots to clear and funds should really be used to get them cleared up by professional contractors.
For some reason there is no will to do this.
It depends on what the constitution says, but it's likely that the management committee decides association policy. There's no reason why you shouldn't make representations to the committee, and any well managed committee will consult its membership anyway, but at the end of the day what the committee decide is the democratic will of the membership - that's how representative democracy works! Best option is to propose a course of action at the AGM, and if the membership is in favour of it then the committee is obliged to follow.
Thank you Unwashed for your detailed advice.
The Association have refused point blank to let me have any of the documents I have asked them for in writing, which includes the Constitution. They have said that they do not see why members should see such documents which are the domain of the management committee only. I have asked other members to request the documents also and they too have been refused.
Throughout the summer I have tried very hard to persuade the association to meet and discuss the issues but they are simply not interested in facing me. Indeed the chairman, allotments manager and trustees all resigned.
After waiting several months and after my persistent demands to see the allegations, they let me have a list of 5 allegations!!! All of which were stated to be anonymous. There were no dates given, no details of plots, no names of accusers, no names of plot holders in fact no hard evidence whatsoever.
Regarding anonymous allegations, this is not new and has occurred in the past to the extent that the Association published a statement in a 2008 newsletter that anonymous calls or letters would always be ignored and would not be acted upon.
However in my situation, they seem to wish to use them.
I take the view that if they bring an action in court, that would give me the opportunity to present my side which has been ignored so far.
The Association are required, when taking adverse action, to allow you to see such evidence as they have and the opportunity to rebut it. In other words, natural justice precludes the use of evidence which cannot be challenged i.e anonymous. Unless the presenter of accusations can be questioned then their evidence is not to be considered.
The Association will need to give you the opportunity to appeal and challenge any assertions they make. Such an appeal may not be heard by the same people who made the original decision to evict.
which model of 'association rules' does your association follow?
our associations rules are based on these.
http://www.nsalg.org.uk/uploads/article459/Model%20Rules%20unregistered%20simple%202006%20A4%20format.pdf
all members are entitled to a copy on request, for a nominal sum (50p)
I can't get my head around this.
If there was an AGM in October then surely it was advertised in advance, accounts produced and officers elected etc so everyone should know who has which job and where the money is going.
Did you attend and if so what actually happened?
In reply to jules2, there was an AGM but there is apathy amongst the membership and no new people are interested in management. There is an atmosphere of secrecy and plot holders just don't want to get involved.
Most plot holders just want to garden their plot and in this situation the status quo is maintained.
The main problem is the committee 'clique' who want to run things their way and any new committee members in the past have not stayed long.
The committee are also very secretive and do not openly give information, which could be challenged and questioned.
Anyone who challenges them, like myself, faces their persecution and they always seek to evict people they regard as trouble makers.
did you attend the AGM?
What's your latest Mahonia?
I am still on the allotments as usual but I am always there with my friend and fellow plot holder as I have had abuse over this matter and if I receive any more abuse or threats, then I have a witness.
I am determined to stand firm and if they wish to carry out their threats of an injunction, then so be it.
Apart from my own struggle, we are very concerned about the derelict plots and the building waste dumped on the site. Fires are still going on and there is always the risk that another load of harmful materials would be burned.
The asbestos issue I mentioned before, has not been resolved and the local Borough Council are being quiet about it. I have requested their report on the matter, but so far no response. I may well report the matter to the HSE.
I have also learned that another plot holder has been given an eviction notice for having a weedy plot, which seems unreasonable and unfair when next to their plot is a load of dumped rubbish which has been there for years. Naturally the plot holder is very upset and what they probably need in this situation is a little support and a helping hand. Its all so heavy handed on our site and it is all down to mismanagement and lack of respect for people.
The 'business community' who are using their plots to store and dump building materials are getting away with it, while decent folk are being harassed and bullied.
Might be worth doing an FOI request for the report if they're being slow...that way they have to comply with the request within a certain time period.
Thanks for the advice about FOI request.
Do you know if the Allotment Association has to comply with FOI the same as councils do?
I'm not sure ....this part of FAQ on the ICO website might help:
http://www.ico.gov.uk/Global/faqs/freedom_of_information_act_for_the_public.aspx#f30AA9BF4-D650-4FD4-A101-FC4CDC431D17 (http://www.ico.gov.uk/Global/faqs/freedom_of_information_act_for_the_public.aspx#f30AA9BF4-D650-4FD4-A101-FC4CDC431D17)
I have made the FOI requests to the borough council.
I have also made a complaint directly to the Chief Executive regarding the council's lack of response to my requests and the general state of the allotments, rubbish, asbestos etc. and I told them of my intention to report the asbestos matter to the HSE.
The council have responded straightaway. So I will let you know the outcome.
I have mentioned the derelict plots before but I am particularly concerned about the large number of plastic drums with liquid in them just dumped on uncultivated plots.
As you know, I have been served an eviction notice and I am continuing to work on my plot.
I was seen on my plot by some committee members and they have sent me a letter saying I am trespassing and they will now go ahead with a court injunction.
Along with their letter they returned my cheque I sent them back in June 2010 for the rental. So they have watched me work on my plot for the past six months without comment and have waited until now to return the cheque.
Although they deliberately did not collect my rent, I paid it anyway and if they did not cash the cheque that is their problem.
There is a complication in that my partner has her own plot and the cheque was in payment for both rentals.
The association are now saying that my partner should reapply for membership.
What a mess this is turning out to be.
Now they have dragged my partner into this situation.
Help and advice please.
Had the committee accepted payment of rent after terminating your tenancy then that action would, by operation of law, void any termination and demonstrate that the tenancy does in fact continue. On the other hand refusing to accept rent does nothing to enforce a termination. Refusing to accept your partner's rent doesn't affect her tenancy in any way, it just gives her the plot rent-free - the tenant has an obligation to tender the rent, and the landlord has a duty to accept it (well, actually I think the landlord only has a duty to accept rent tendered in coin after sunrise and before dusk so as not to require her to count it out in candle light, but if the rent is customarily accepted by cheque I doubt there'd be a problem) so having refused to accept the rent the landlord can't then say that the rent is in arrears.
As I think has already been said, if the landlord hasn't enforced the termination through physical re-entry or court order for possession then you can't be a trespasser, and it's unlikely that the committee would even be allowed to waste the court's time under those circumstances.
It is important though that you continue to assert your tenancy, so make yourself as visible as you can on your plot.
I don't remember the details, but how is it that the committee believe they evicted you? What did your eviction letter say?
At the end of the day I think you're going to need someone to mediate between yourself and the committee. I'm very happy to help if I can.
The committee sent me a letter saying they had a 'hearing' at which they took a decision to evict me.
The letter also contained a threat of injunction for trespass should I remain on the site. No details of the 'hearing' were given and no minutes of the 'hearing' either.
Remember this whole situation started when I made a complaint to the local council about the state of the allotments and the asbestos in particular.
A few weeks before that I discovered that the council had been to the site and then sent a letter to the association saying they were in breach of the lease.
I have a copy of their letter which threatens termination of the lease unless the site is cleaned up.
The association have flagrantly ignored the letter and the council have not followed it up.
So I suppose the association are technically still in breach.
The association took personal exception to my complaints and since then it has been trouble for me, starting with allegations of thefts from plots, based on anonymous telephone calls they say. But they look made up to me. They do not have any hard evidence.
The association decided to use these 'anonymous allegations' as a reason to evict me.
You would imagine how damaging their allegations have been to my reputation as they made these allegations in writing and other members saw and noted them. One of the committee members is also a trustee and local councillor and so he is very much implicated in this. He suddenly resigned back in September 2010 and the Chairman resigned back in May 2010.
It has been a very sorry story and it would seem that now the remaining committee wish to target my partner also.
We are both allotmenting as normal and making ourselves clearly visible to other plot holders and committee.
I am very grateful for the support and advice you are giving.
Have you been to a council meeting and brought any of this up at all as they are the ultimate owners of the land? I found that things very much took a turn for the better for me after I went along and stated my case to the whole council rather than just writing letters. It still took some time to get things sorted for me...but it gave a bit more edge to my arguments having something formally in the council minutes about my situation.
Making a formal complaint to the council seems to get them to sit up and pay attention as well :) ...and it means if the council involved is a district/metro/county council then you can escalate that complaint to the local authority ombudsman if you're not satisfied with their response.
TBH though if they are calling into question your character so publicly I'd be inclined to get some legal advice as well.
Quote from: sazhig on January 10, 2011, 20:38:58
Have you been to a council meeting and brought any of this up at all as they are the ultimate owners of the land? I found that things very much took a turn for the better for me after I went along and stated my case to the whole council rather than just writing letters. It still took some time to get things sorted for me...but it gave a bit more edge to my arguments having something formally in the council minutes about my situation.
Making a formal complaint to the council seems to get them to sit up and pay attention as well :) ...and it means if the council involved is a district/metro/county council then you can escalate that complaint to the local authority ombudsman if you're not satisfied with their response.
TBH though if they are calling into question your character so publicly I'd be inclined to get some legal advice as well.
I agree that you should complain to the Council.
What do you want to achieve from this? Not being evicted is simple - just don't leave. If you want to be part of the site management then you need to work with the committee, so you need to build bridges. You'll probably need some help doing that. Do you have a stratagey?
Have you contacted your MP or the local press? If the latter sent a photographer round to get pics of the mess elsewhere on the site, that could really embarass them!
Thank you for the advice and support.
I have already invited a reporter from the local press to see the site for himself and he is keen to run a story.
I like the idea of attending council meetings and I will take steps to do this. I have made formal complaints to the council and they do now seem to be taking notice and responding.
The question of what I would like to happen is straightforward in that the false allegations made against me must be retracted and threats of eviction and injunctions etc. must be withdrawn.
I had hoped to become an active member of the management committee but this would not happen while the present clique are still there. They do not want new people on board and that is why there are so few committee and the members do not come forward.
I never wished to do battle with these people but they have acted very badly and are continuing to do so and all I wanted was to enjoy peaceful allotmenting with my partner.
As has been kindly pointed out I could just stay put and that is what we are going to do. We have good plots and we are not leaving.
But the matter of the false allegations cannot be ignored and I must take action over that.
Do you have a plan? Ousting the old-guard is not easy, and the antagonism it will engender will blight the site for ever. You need to negotiate a settlement, and I suspect you'll need help doing that.
I was involved in ousting the old guard at my church, and the trouble they made (and are still making, years later), is unbelievable. On the other hand, there have been other cases where people have just gone off in a huff and never been heard of again. It's worth doing if you're obstinate enough to deal with it.
You're right Robert, and I know some of what you've gone through so I appreciate what you say. I'm fighting for self-management with my town council right now, and an ugly fight it is. I'm not saying don't fight, only that it's the option of last resort because there's always a legacy. A negotiated solution is always better if you can get the other side to the negotiating table.
I have had a flurry of response from the borough council including the chief executive. I think as the land owner and considering they have issues with the association regarding breaches of the lease terms, the council may intervene and resolve the matter.
I am not going to leave the allotment and at present there exists a ridiculous situation where the committee avoid me on the site and walk out of their way to go to and from their plots. I am sure they would not want to be doing this forever.
But as I said before, they must retract their allegations and their persistent attacks on me must stop. They have little support as most of their friends have left the allotments and new people have taken up plots and want change.
When I joined the allotments some 7 years ago, it was a happy place and well run and the chairman raised a great deal of funds for local charities and the association had a good reputation. Sadly when he passed away his successor was a totally different character and the atmosphere on the allotments deteriorated and apathy set in and the local charities are no longer supported by the association.
As I told you, the new chairman resigned in 2010 and the few old guard remaining have run out of ideas and clinging on.
I feel my plan, if I have one, is to just stay put and let the committee fall apart as I believe it will.
One person in a position of power can cause immense damage. The answer, of course, is for everyone to assert themselves and insist on accountability; they only have the power because others sit back and say nothing. Trouble is, so often that doesn't happen. But keep going; I think you may well be right about the committee collapsing. On the other hand, there may have been someone else waiting in the wings, so be prepared to keep fighting. You do get there in the end.
Well it was a sunny day today, so I went to the allotments to dig and do a tidy up. The rhubarb is already showing and so I put the bins over some to force them. The garlic is showing too.
It was a good afternoon as a group from the borough council visited the site to inspect the mess, take photos and talk to plot holders. Things then got better when I happened to be talking to the council staff, our committee vice chair appeared and noted that not only was I still on the allotments but I was talking to the landlord! She did not look too happy.
Remember I am supposed to be evicted and a trespasser.
So this farce still rolls along. I am now waiting for the injunction action against me.
Anyway, the CEO at the council did assure me that the matter of rubbish plots would be dealt with and it seems he has kept his promise. Hopefully the council would now take swift action.
I was told by another plot holder today that the committee had tried to evict an elderly lady from her plot which is a 5 rod orchard of mixed fruit trees, but she has told them she is not going. Good for her.
I'm pleased there's some positive progress. Stick to your guns mahonia.
at last some action from the council, well done you!!
Nice one, great news, stick together and hopefully these idiots will eventually leave. ;) ;D ;D ;D
The council people visited the site again on Thursday as they are not happy with the burning they witnessed on Wednesday.
It would seem that my direct approach to the chief executive at the council has brought some action at long last.
The council have photographed the rubbish on the many plots and have identified the plot where the asbestos is buried.
The elderly lady's orchard plot is now being tidied and the trees have been pruned and I say good for her to make a stand. It has worked.
There are a few others 'being evicted' and looking at their plots all they need is a bit of weeding and digging, but it is winter after all. I will be contacting them as I do not want them to be bullied off the site.
Good luck, I hope the tide has turned for you
Anne x
An update for you, following visits from the borough council last week one of the derelict plots has been cleared or rather piled up into yet another large fire about 9 feet high and 10 feet across and nearby is another large heap of building materials, plastics etc. which I assume will be taken off site.
We would prefer not to burn but at least some clearance is taking place at long last.
Regarding evictions, I found out that 2 local councillors have overgrown and neglected plots, but they are not being evicted. Whereas some others are who have similar plots. It stinks.
I am still on my plot. Went there yesterday and again my presence was noted by our acting chair, but she did not speak. I am waiting for the court injunction for trespass she had threatened me with.
Myself and other plot holders have asked for a copy of the constitution but we have been refused. Is this unlawful?
Also are we entitled to see copies of the minutes of meetings in the same way that Parish Councils etc. make them freely available?
It seems we have an association in which the members are not allowed to have access to information which affects them.
Does the FOI act 2000 apply to associations?
Quote from: mahonia on January 29, 2011, 14:45:43
Myself and other plot holders have asked for a copy of the constitution but we have been refused. Is this unlawful?
Also are we entitled to see copies of the minutes of meetings in the same way that Parish Councils etc. make them freely available?
It seems we have an association in which the members are not allowed to have access to information which affects them.
Does the FOI act 2000 apply to associations?
FoI? No. If the information was in some way held on behalf of a public authority then you could ask the public authority for it and they'd have to get it from the association, but I can't see that working.
Minutes and Constitution? There are statutory provisions about the minutes of a parish council and it's a criminal offence to be denied access, but no, that doesn't apply to the association. You could demand discovery if they bring and action against you in court, but other than that I don't know how you might compel an association to show you the minutes and constitution. It's really something the membership should demand, but if members can't be asked then I don't see it happening.
Surely the allotment holders ARE the association and not just the committee. As such any member can demand to see any documents appertaining to the association. Also a quorum of members can call an Extraordinay General Meeting and oust the incumbent committee.
as a tenant, you are a member of the association. does the association have a solicitor? if so, have a word with him/her and ask them to obtain/give you ( they must have a copy) a copy of the constitution.
At the end of the day you'd have to get a court order to deliver up the documents, but things have got seriously screwed if it comes to that. Granted, things might very well be seriously screwed. Really unless you have the support of the members it's pointless doing anything, and with the member's support there should be enough pressure to convince the old lady to cough up the docs, and if she won't just call a meeting to adopt some new ones.
if it is a proper association, the tenants (members) are entitled to a copy of the constitution. if it ain't a proper association, have a word with NSALG about setting one up.
I've just been reading this thread from the beginning and wanted to say well done on you for standing up to all this, and getting involed. I also want to wish you well - it sounds like you are on the right path to getting it all sorted
1066 :)
Please would you advise us.
In previous posts, I told you that the association returned our rentals cheque after holding it for six months. We tendered the rents on July 1 2010 and the cheque was accepted and we gardened our plots as before. In December, our cheque was returned.
Now they are attacking my partner and have sent her an eviction letter saying that as she is in arrears with her rent the association are giving her 14 days notice to quit, saying 'according to association rules'.
Of course you know we have asked repeatedly for the association rules (constitution) and copy of the tenancy agreement but the association have refused to provide them.
Their letter relies on 'the rules' which we are prevented from seeing.
We are not going and definitely staying put.
Myself and the association are in dispute, but now they are attacking my partner and dragging her into it.
This association is corrupt and the situation has got out of hand.
Your advice please.
I forgot to mention that the letter to my partner was on new format association headed paper and the preprinted paper now shows the acting chair as chair.
So who promoted her to chair?
Surely this is misrepresentation. I would have expected any promotion of officers to be voted for democratically at the next agm in October.
Are they just taking the mickey or what?
You can't be evicted, but of course that doesn't stop you worrying, and it doesn't stop the committee harassing you like this. It's a rotten situation because the committee don't sound like they care much whether they're acting legitimately or not.
Your rights then:
Your landlord can potentially forfeit your tenancy for two distinct reasons, a.) arrears, and b.) breach of a term of the tenancy agreement. Both are forfeiture, but the law deals with them seperately - nothing in life is simple!
a.) arrears.
Unless the tenancy agreement says otherwise your landlord can forfeit your tenancy as soon as you are one day in arrears by as little as one penny.
There is no requirement to serve notice that the tenancy is being forfeit for arrears. As soon as you are in arrears your tenancy can be forfeit.
Under the common law the rent must first be lawfully demanded, which actually means the landlord must physically demand it at the allotment between sunrise and sun set (the law doesn't expect you to count the rent out in candle light) and the demand must state precisely how much rent is due. However, there is no need for that formality if more than 6 months rent is owing, or if the tenancy agreement has a term that allows the landlord to forfeit for arrears "whether lawfully demanded or not".
The landlord's right to forfeit the tenancy for arrears is implicit and it is not necessary to have a term that specifically allows it.
Small Holdings and Allotments Act S.30(2) creates a statutory minimum of 40 days that the rent must be in arrears before the council can forfeit the tenancy. It's not altogether clear whether a site leased from a council and managed by a committee comes within S.30.
If you've paid the rent but the cheque has been returned uncashed then the landlord hasn't accepted the rent, but that doesn't create arrears.
If the landlord has served notice to forfeit for arrears and subsequently accepts any money whatsoever for whatever reason then by operation of law that defeats the notice - the landlord can't accept any money if she wants to forfeit for arrears.
If you're being threatened with forfeiture for arrears and you dispute the arrears you can't apply to the court for relief from forfeiture until the lease has actually been forfeit, you can only do that after you've been evicted.
You might possibly be able to apply to the court for declaratory judgement or an injunction as a way of resolving the dispute before you actually get evicted.
b.) Breach of a term of the tenancy agreement
The process is set out in S.146 Law of Property 1925.
You must be served with a notice that says exactly what term of the tenancy agreement you are in breach of, and you must be given reasonable opportunity to put the matter right, or at least compensate the landlord for loss if the breach can't be put right. If the landlord doesn't do all of that any forfeiture is invalid.
The term that you are supposed to be in breach of must be phrased unambiguously as a condition so that it's clear that the tenancy depends on the term not being breached, otherwise the landlord can't forfeit unless there is a catch all term of the agreement that explicitly allows the landlord to forfeit for any breach of a term of the tenancy agreement.
Any minimum notice period that the tenancy agreement gives for forfeiture for a breach of a term is a minimum because S.146 requires that you be given a "reasonable" time, and a court will decide what that means. So for example it wouldn't be "resonable" to give someone 30 days from January 1st to dig the whole of their plot - and I've seen just that!
Terms of the tenancy agreement must be fair within the meaning of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 or it's as if they aren't there. Terms are potentially unfair if they go further than is necessary in protecting the interests of the landlord or if they don't also consider the interests of the tenant.
If you weren't given the opportunity to see the terms of the tenancy agreement, and especialy if your agreement incorporates additional terms by way of a seperate set of rules that you weren't given before you signed the agreement then those terms are unfair.
In general the landlord can't change the terms of your tenancy agreement, and any term of the agreement that purports to allow the landlord to do just that is likely to be unfair, and it follows that any new rule is also unfair and unenforceable.
If you are served with notice that your tenancy is to be forfeit for a breach of a term of the agreement you can apply to the court for relief from forfeiture as soon as you are served notice.
So basically those are your rights, but asserting them is a different story.
If you're served notice that your tenancy is to be forfeit you're completely within your rights to stay after the notice expires, and until you have actually been physically evicted the plot is still yours. While the plot is yours the landlord my not interfer with your right of access or touch anything on your plot, and while landlords will bluster they're potentially guilty of criminal damage if they touch your stuff and assault if they touch you. they may possibly be guilty of criminal trespass if they go onto your plot with an unfounded intention of physically evicting you.
The landlord can evict you in two ways. The best way is for them to apply to the county court for a possession order. You will get the opportunity to say why you believe the landlord shouldn't be given permission.
The other way is peaceable re-entry. Basically the landlord physically takes the plot back, but it's technically difficult to do on an allotment because you need to be physically excluded from every bit of the plot. I think that there has to be a provision in the tenncy agreement to allow the landlord to re-enter, but it's also possible that you could argue tht such a term is unfair under UTCCR 1999 because the phrase is technical and unlikely to be understood by the average allotmenteer. Physical re-entry is a high-risk strategy for the landlord as if you're there to resist - and you can use reasonable force to - they risk assulting you.
Once the landlord has re-entered the plot isn't your anymore and you can only get it back by applying to the court for releif.
Sometimes the landlord will say that they'll sell any of your stuff that you leave, but if the landlord re-enters they become an involuntary baliee and have an obligation to keep your stuff safe. If they sell it or don't look after it you can bring an action gainst them.
It is possible when the landlord claims arrears for the landlord to distrain. this means the landlord goes to your allotment and takes enough of your stuff to sell to recover the arrears. I've never heard of it happening, but it's a possibility.
That, in a nutshell, is the basics.
So just to clarify: you can be evicted for breaking the rules of your tenancy agreement, and unless you have a copy of them and the tenancy agreement that incorporates them, it's difficult to know how you're supposed to keep them.
The association rules are completely different things altogether. Your dispute with the association, and their unwillingness to give you a copy of the constitution has nothing whatsover to do with the dispute about breaking some site rule or other.
Can you post the eviction letter?
Thank you from both of us for the detailed explanation.
We are staying put and waiting for the association's next move. All of this trouble is coming from the lady acting chair who now appears to be chair.
Clearly she does not care about us or indeed others on the site who have also had problems with her.
As you say, some people give up their plots by simply allowing the rent to lapse, but we have tendered ours and the association have been happy to see us gardening our plots.
This matter is simply a personal issue and is becoming more vindictive.
Regarding the rents, my partner was sent a renewal notice in June 2010, but they deliberately did not send me a renewal. But we renewed both rentals in a single cheque which seems to have given the association a dilemma.
We are taking a stance of staying put and we feel it is in our interests to be physically evicted and then we can bring a court action for the wrongs.
Presumably they would be in trouble if they let our plots to somebody else, knowing they are rented to us at least until end of June 2011.
Did you have an opinion about the lady acting chair. who is doing this to us, self promoting to chair. Surely that is not in the rules, what about the AGM and democratic election of officers.
Regarding the letter to my partner, she is going to reply by asking for a copy of the association rules and tenancy agreement as they have mentioned 'the rules' in the letter.
We are battling on and comforted by the support from the forum. We thank you for that.
No,this woman can not promote herself to chair,how do other plotholders feel about the committee,if you get enough of you together you can call an EGM,not sure how many you need but someone else will here...I beg your pardon if someone else has already suggested this and I missed it.
It's not enough for the committee just to say you're breaking the rules, you have to be told precisely which rule.
Do you not have a copy of your tenancy agreement? It would be helpful if you could post it.
I still think you're confusing the association rules and the site rules. they are two completely different things. You can be evicted for breaking your site rules, if you've been given a copy before you signed the tenancy agreement, and if the tenancy agreement correctly incorporates the rules. Make sure you ask clearly for the site rules thet you are supposed to be in breach of.
The association rules is another name for the constitution.
To be honest with you mahonia I'm less sympathetic about your dispute with the committee over the governance of the association. If you didn't put yourself up for office at the AGM I'm not sure you have good grounds to complain about the legitimacy of the incumbent, albeit that she may well be running the show despotically. Whether she can legitimately take the chair without election depends on what the constitution says, and it's quite possible she's acted correctly - though it's very poor that she can't give you a copy of the constitution.
Are you still representing yourself or do have have someone to advocate for you yet?
I accept that the acting chair was democratically elected via the AGM really due to the lack of interest from other members and she became promoted from secretary to acting chair at the last AGM.
Regarding the 'rules', because nobody has a copy of these site rules, constitution or rental agreements, then it is difficult to argue.
As I said before an atmosphere of secrecy is maintained by the committee and they point blank refuse to give out any documents even though we know they should.
We have been on the allotment today in the wind, but we feel we should maintain our presence there.
We feel the committee have come to a dead end now and there are fewer options left to them to evict us without them going to court and I do not see them doing that.
They just harass us and we stay put. Then they harass us a bit more and we stay put.
Quote from: mahonia on February 04, 2011, 16:26:13
They just harass us and we stay put. Then they harass us a bit more and we stay put.
Yeah, they'll do that. Just stay put. :)
I think you should find someone to mediate for you. I think I've suggested this before. I don't see a successful conclusion likely until that happens. It'll be painful because you'll need to compromise and accept the legitimacy of the current committee.
We feel we have accepted the committee as they were voted in by members. We are just wanting to bring change to the allotments and we are being successful as further clearance of derelict plots has occurred. But it has been a struggle as the committee are not really interested in the allotments and their attention is focussed on the allotments shop.
The clearances are due to pressure from the borough council forcing them to do it.
What we are wanting is a site manager but nobody wants to do the job. This is our basic problem .
I did put myself forward in 2009, but they did not like the changes I had in mind and you know what happened after that. Theft allegations, eviction attempts etc. etc.
We have tried to resolve this matter over many months but the association have rejected our attempts every time. We would welcome mediation or arbitration but both sides have to agree to it.
We don't want to see the committee behaving shabbily especially in their senior years and it cannot be much fun for them, but the one individual is persisting unchecked and we are not convinced that the other committee members are comfortable with what is happening. They are behaving like sheep.
All we want to do is enjoy our allotment but the acting chair lady is clearly upset and resents what she may feel is interference and she is behaving like a woman scorned.
My partner has made a complaint to the borough council CEO regarding the action against her.
It all sounds very stressful. I hope you manage to sort it out in time to enjoy your summer on the plot. The allotment is meant to be a peaceful place. I really feel for you.
Thank you for the kind words of support. We love our allotment gardening and have no intention of leaving.
It is very sad that my partner is now being harassed and threatened but we have done nothing wrong and we paid our rent so thats it really. My partner is a very sweet Thai lady who is also retired like myself and she would not harm a fly.
Yes, we could just walk away but why should we. There are others on the allotments who are and have been badly treated and we are making a stand for them as well as ourselves.
We have friends on the allotments supporting us and slowly we are making a difference.
Most of the old committee have gone and only the acting chair and a few of her clique remain.
The best outcome of this situation we feel, is to wind up the association and return the site to the borough council. The council run 12 other allotments in the borough so they could do it quite easily.
I think if you google 'Poole Dorset Allotments' you should find their website in which there is an article about the Poole council taking back an allotment site due to mismanagement. It is worth reading.
Of course there are hundreds of well run self managed allotments, but ours has had its time and I don't see it lasting much longer.
Quote from: mahonia on February 04, 2011, 19:33:46
I did put myself forward in 2009, but they did not like the changes I had in mind and you know what happened after that. Theft allegations, eviction attempts etc. etc.
Is this a case of someone lashing out because they didn't like what you were saying? If so, I know what it feels like!
The lady acting chair wants her own way and resents anyone who speaks out. That is why there are so few committee members and nobody wants to be on the committee.
We are staying put and letting the lady dig herself into a deeper hole.
Unwashed has helped us put this sad story into some perspective and we remain confident in our rights to stay and at the moment we are enjoying the gardening rent free.
This week we are planting our broad bean seeds and doing more digging as the beds are quite well drained.
We mowed the grass paths and our picnic area this week and now my partner's plot looks very good for February.
My own plot needs more digging and I should have this done by the end of February.
That's very much the same situation as we had some years ago.
Quote from: pigeonseed on February 04, 2011, 22:23:36
It all sounds very stressful. I hope you manage to sort it out in time to enjoy your summer on the plot. The allotment is meant to be a peaceful place. I really feel for you.
my thoughts exactly,sadly allotments are not exempt from people being power hungry :(
most of us just want to grow stuff :)
I wish you well :) :)
We have decided to stay put and enjoy the gardening and let the lady enjoy her 'power'.
It is a sad story which can only hurt her in the end and it must be spoiling her retirement, after all she is age 74, 75 this year.
There is a lot to do on our site and sadly she seems so bitter and twisted and unable to focus on the wider picture and all this shabby behaviour turns plot holders away from helping.
We wish her peace as life is very short and soon it is all over.
Of course myself and my partner are not going to sit back and suffer this harassment but as Unwashed has said we just stay put and be on the allotments and let the lady tangle herself in her mess.
We have other interests and I do much local voluntary work and last year I helped to establish a large allotment at a home for adults with learning difficulties. I will be continuing with the project this year.
That is a very sad situation, I enjoy my allotment and growing but it wouldn't be the same without the good chats and the good friends I have made. Ours is Council and with a site sec. and I can't complain about either.
Thank you Borlotti, we still have friends around us on the allotments to chat to and put the world to rights.
The lady causing the trouble only has a few supporters and two of them are the business people who are abusing the site with dumping and burning. They are the heavy boys but they don't give me any trouble and I don't think they will.
They are under the cosh from the council at the moment.
The leaflet that I got with my invoice from the Council (which I recycled) said that on one of the allotment sites someone got fined a large amount for dumping rubbish, so the Council do have powers to deal with that kind of thing. Hope you get it sorted out soon.
Yes I agree the council should be exercising their powers but I think they may be influenced by one of their councillors who so happens to have a plot near the rubbish.
So form your own opinion.
A note for Unwashed: we are unable to provide copies of the Association Rules or Tenancy Agreement or Constitution as our requests for the documents were refused. I have asked a friend on the allotments to request them for himself but he has been refused also. I have made an FOI request to the council but they say they don't have them. I made an FOI request to the council for details of the new trustees but the council say they don't have the information, but surely they must have it. It was the council who told me there are new trustees!
So there you are.
Legally, I think dumping rubbish on an allotment is the same as any other sort of fly tipping.
The dumped rubbish is a matter between the council and the association. The council have seen and photographed the mess and I am keeping out of it.
Meanwhile the association are having a dispute with us which must be fun for them. Obviously they enjoy the aggravation.
We are going to our allotments tomorrow as a fine day is forecast. Lots to do in the greenhouse and the rhubarb crowns need more forcing covers.
Its all a bit Catch 22, all constitutions I have seen give the members the power to ask for an extraordinary AGM so if you have support you could ask for one.
The problem being because you can't see the constitution you don't know how much support you need.
If I were you I'd go straight to my local councillor and ask why they allow such a dysfunctional organisation to operate on council property.
My local councillor has a plot near the derelict plots and the association are in dispute themselves with the council over the mismanagement of the site. The association has been given notice to clear the mess or the lease would be terminated.
So its a big mess all round really. Perhaps the councillor feels he has a conflict of interest as the council employs him. He is not interested in supporting my dispute.
It is very clear if you read through my story that the committee have totally mismanaged the allotments.
However I am sure you would agree that it is one thing to mismanage the site and the site could be cleaned up in time, but it is very disturbing and unacceptable for the committee to harass and bully individuals.
We are being bullied off our plots after a series of deliberate and unlawful actions against us.
We are staying put and the committee want us out. So there is a stand off.
Mediation has been suggested and we are going to approach the committee to propose this but I am not optimistic.
Has anyone had experience of mediation or being a mediator? We would appreciate some help with this.
hi mahonia
Sorry to hear about your problems. I've also been harassed on our site. I was threatened by one plotholder, complained to the Committee & while they were 'investigating' the person who threatened was invited to join the Committee. I've also had guests intimidated by Committee members this included my (then) 78 year old mother. I also had what I call 'the pub staring incident' where one member continually stared at me as I was walking to my plot, when challenged he said 'I can stare at who I want'.
Went to mediation. I asked for this, but it turned out to be a bit of a toothless wonder. Doesn't mean though that it would be in all cases.
Marcitos
Quote from: mahonia on February 13, 2011, 10:56:42
Perhaps the councillor feels he has a conflict of interest as the council employs him.
I think you'll find that is not quite correct since he is an elected representative, i.e we elect him and he most definitely is not an employee. However, I can understand how he would feel compromised.
Have you discussed the matter with him? If not, do so asap, as he will be able to advise the best line of complaint.
Good luck
OC
councillors love filling in complaint forms for you!
but not so when the complaint is about themselves! LOL
one problem with mediation is like negotiation, people seem to feel it has to involve both sides giving something away, which in some cases isn't fair. But then when people have to live together afterwards maybe it's the only way to re-establish the relationship. You might want to start thinking of something you can 'offer' on your side, which is acceptable to you, but hold it back, till the time comes. If people in authority won't force a solution for you, then I hope mediation helps get things back to a peaceful situation.
Thank you for your helpful advice.
I will speak with the councillor regarding the problems we are having. It must be worth trying.
Regarding mediation, I know it will not be easy for the association as they are very determined to get us off the allotments and they are not bothered about being lawful.
The association seem to be obsessed with eviction and have not been willing so far to hear my side.
But someone has to make the first move and it is easier for us than the committee who seem unable to take a decision apart from unlawful ones.
It would be nice if the committee sent us a letter stating what it is that has upset them so much and what they actually want out of this dispute. All we have had from them so far is allegations, threats and eviction notices plus a load of biased hearings.
I am hoping the committee will respond to my proposal for mediation but I cannot force them and both sides must be willing to resolve the dispute.
I can see that it would be difficult for the committee as they have always operated in secret and no doubt they are worried that the membership would learn the truth.
This is new territory for them and I am sure they do not know how to deal with it.
Mubarak didn't either, but he didn't last long!
No experience with official mediation apart from a rather rubbish phone based negotiation for a financial matter that was before county court that was really not worth the time :-\
But when I had my troubles with my local allotment association it was the meeting between myself, the association and the council that cleared it all up...well not exactly the meeting...more the idea of it ;D. It was the chair of the council that proposed the meeting at the council meeting I attended to bring the matter to their attention. But it never took place as the association just kept ignoring/postponing the council's requests for suitable dates for it. After about 6 months I wrote to the council stating it was obvious the association had no intention of meeting with us or explaining why they had done what they had (and lodging my official complaint about the discrimination me and my family were experiencing ;)). Within a month the council had ordered the association to desist and it was all resolved :)
Quote from: sazhig on February 14, 2011, 18:33:10
No experience with official mediation apart from a rather rubbish phone based negotiation for a financial matter that was before county court that was really not worth the time :-\
But when I had my troubles with my local allotment association it was the meeting between myself, the association and the council that cleared it all up...well not exactly the meeting...more the idea of it ;D. It was the chair of the council that proposed the meeting at the council meeting I attended to bring the matter to their attention. But it never took place as the association just kept ignoring/postponing the council's requests for suitable dates for it. After about 6 months I wrote to the council stating it was obvious the association had no intention of meeting with us or explaining why they had done what they had (and lodging my official complaint about the discrimination me and my family were experiencing ;)). Within a month the council had ordered the association to desist and it was all resolved :)
result!!
We were advised to try mediation but we have decided if that fails we would bring a court action against the association.
We have tried everything else to resolve the matter and we feel court action would bring a result.
The committee dragged my partner into the dispute, so effectively they now have two disputes rather than one.
My partner feels in her case she is being racially discriminated against and she may well be right. She has written to the association to that effect. She would be bringing her own separate action.
Last week on the allotments I was told by a plot holder that he had been asked by a committee member last year if he would say that he had seen me stealing fruits from a plot. This is very disturbing and must be criminal.
I have also obtained evidence of a serious financial irregularity regarding misuse of funds. This is also very disturbing.
Should we go to the police?
Lastly, the CEO at the council has said that the council are not prepared to intervene in our disputes. So we pay these people a 6 figure salary and they don't do their job.
The council here once tried to mediate between me and the person who was harassing me on the site, but they refused to meet me. Unfortunately the situation just continued for some time afterwards.
We are not going to bother with the council anymore as I think they have their own dispute with the association so they would be in a difficult position.
We are hopeful that mediation with the association may just work. It is worth trying but of course it depends upon the association being willing to go for it. It is a case of wait and see if they respond, but we would only give them 4 weeks in which to reply one way or the other.
I go to the allotments twice a week but it is not much fun anymore especially as I know about the plot holders who were prepared to lie about me.
It is a very sad place to be in.
Our local council has just taken over the running of our new allotments on the strength of a letter of dissolution from our secretary (a local councillor), who had no legal basis to do so.
Legal battles to follow, I suppose.
Mahonia, if you have evidence of an illegal use of funds then you should certainly report it to the police, and also tell them of the associations attempts to incite another plot holder to make fraudulent claims of theft against you. Then for good measure, get your partner to ask the police to investigate the possibility of racial discrimination.
Definitely go to the police if you have evidence of something illegal. It may not work; I had a situation where they were satisfied that my accuser was the thief, but lacked the evidence to take action. But it's always worth trying, and should at least get them hassled.
I will take your good advice and go to the police. I cannot let the theft allegations go unresolved. As you say even if the police cannot prove foul play it will rattle the committee somewhat.
I do have hard evidence of one specific financial irregularity and the local press has helped with the investigation as it involves the public. The reporter has a copy of the evidence which is damning.
You would like this one:
One of the committee have told me he had nothing to do with the dispute and he says he cannot be held responsible or liable for any decisions that were made as he never signed any document to prove he is a committee member.
Nice try! But as I mentioned to him, he never spoke up for me or rejected any decisions made and the committee have refused to make available the minutes of committee meetings so they are all in the s**t together.
You can see the sort of people we are having to deal with. They are all on another planet.
A nasty attack on me today!!!
Ok it was raining a little but I thought I would do some digging on the plot.
My friend and supporter was on his plot nearby and I had a surprise visit from the Committee chair lady and what followed was a very undignified attack on me with threats and all. She started off by demanding I give up my keys and leave the allotments. I refused to do both and told her I was staying put. She then threatened to call the police and I said please do, but she didn't. Then she said she was going to carry out a citizen's arrest and physically remove me from the allotments. I just laughed at her.
This was all witnessed by my friend who was standing next to me.
She said myself and my partner were in arrears with our rent and so we have to go.
I politely said that our tenancy was valid and as she did not have a possession order, we have a right to stay put and that is what we are going to do.
She then said that she had let both of our plots to new tenants and I decided not to reply to that.
She then asked me why I was causing the association so much trouble and I simply pointed out that she and the committee had started the actions against me by accusing me of thefts which were trumped up and unsubstantiated and I am simply defending my position.
Some nasty remarks were made about my Thai partner and that I should not be gardening on my partner's plot.
I let her vent off her anger and I walked away.
My good friend and myself had a cup of tea and a chat afterwards and he has agreed to make a statement.
What we would like advice on is the matter of our plots being let twice over to new tenants. Surely this is illegal and probably fraudulent as they would have taken rent money for plots which are already let.
We have standing crops, shed with contents, greenhouse with produce so how do we protect these? What happens if new tensnts enter the plots and remove our stuff?
I am making a complaint and statement to the committee about today and sending a copy of my statement to the CEO at the borough council.
That's awful mahonia. Just stand firm, you're doing the right thing.
Remember that your plot is your property and you have a right to garden it, and a right to come to and fro to it. If you're threatened with assault as you were it's probably time to call the police - they have a duty to prevent a breach of the peace. Your committee lady certainly has no right to step foot on your plot or interfer with you, and she would certainly be breaking the law if she were to attempt to arrest you, and you would be entitled to use a minimum of reasonable force to resist.
No one has a right to demand the keys from you, and it's really important that you never hand them over because that could look like you were surrendering the tenancy.
You need to go to the police and report the incident. It's an unpleasant thing to have happened, and it's likely to escalate. Involve the police now. They won't do anything, but it's important that you report the incident to them.
If the committee let your plot to someone else that's fraud, and that is illegal - they're selling something that they know doesn't belong to them. As you correctly say, whatever notices and such the committee give you, the plot is legally yours until either the committee affect a peaceable re-entry which is very difficult on an allotment, or else they get a possession order.
Bear in mind that if the committee have purported to let your plot then the new tenant is an innocent party and won't know what's going on, so it's not a bad idea to put some kind of notice on your plot saying that it's yours and please don't touch your stuff.
Oh blimey mahonia that's awful! Good you were patient, and didn't let her get you riled. Have you reported it to the police?
I have prepared a statement which was read and agreed by the witness. I have sent a copy of the statement to the council, MP, each member of the committee with a covering letter informing them that if any further action is taken against me whatsoever I would call the police.
As you have advised, I will go to the police tomorrow and give them my statement.
I am seeing the local newspaper tomorrow as they want to print our story and we will name names and shame these people.
I am quite relaxed about what happened as it was witnessed and I kept calm and I was very polite but firm and made it very clear that we would not give up our plots and we would not give up our keys.
It was fortunate that I was not alone as I took advice from this forum not to go there on my own.
When the news article appears I will let you know so that you will then discover where we are and the name of the association and our names of course (and our photo on the plot).
We are going to our plots tomorrow (Friday) and we will let you know if anything happens. We will be taking our camcorder so we can film anyone who approaches or hassles us.
Well done...You sound really organized...I would not like be against you and your 'ice cold' calmness ;)
And camcorder too...Go girl..go girl... ;D
The wicked witch of the west wasn't on the allotments today. So I worked on the plot in peace.
I did as suggested and made two notice boards , one for each of our plots, which stated that the plots are let to us.
One of the plots has been worked on with a small patch dug over which was very nice of whoever did it.
I am going to the police on Monday to make a statement about the Wednesday afternoon incident.
We are preparing a letter which we intend to give to as many plot holders as we can to let them know about our suffering and the Wednesday incident. We need to get more members on board to support us.
I have spoken with the newspaper reporter today and I am going to their offices on Monday to discuss details of our story.
A question for you.
One member of the committee has told me that he feels he cannot be liable or held responsible for their decisions because he did not sign any documents to say he was on the committee !!!
He has been on the committee for years.
They are such cowards aren't they? Now that the situation has reached crunch point they are looking for ways to escape their liabilities.
I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some documentation that stated this person's name as a committee member, particularly if they've been on it for some years. At the very least surely there would be the minutes from the meeting when he/she was voted/co-opted in....but then again if they are as dodgy as it seems... :-\
Says an awful lot IMO about how the committee is being run if a member is wanting to disassociate themselves from the rest. Is this a person who is on your side about things? Might it be worth seeing if they can assist in gathering other members to help with your situation and maybe get rid of those doing the bullying/illegal activities and form a new committee?
mahonia, a question for you.
r.e. the alleged committee member question.
if the committee never met, or did anything, was there actually a committee? if they met, were minutes taken? if so, a list will be in the minutes of names of attendees.
apply to find out with a FOI request ( mention that the request is under the FOI, and you expect a response in 10 working days, in the letter you send by recorded delivery to the secretary)
then see what happens.
rgds, Tony
Taking his comments to their logical conclusion; perhaps there is NO committee at all.....
Who gives this so called committee the right to say they are on a committee; and the powers to do anything?
I don't believe there's any need for formality. As I understand it the relationship between the members of a committee is contractural so the usual rules apply and a verbal agreement is just as good as a written one. However, I don't think it matters much. I believe, and again I'm not completely certain, that committee members share joint and several liability which means you can hold any member of the committee wholly responsible for any liability and it's then a matter between the members of the committee to apportion liability between themselves.
A note of caution: You need to be very careful that nothing you say, even in private, could be construed as challenging the legitimacy of your landlord because that invokes a quaint bit of common law that immediately dissolves your tenancy. If for no other reason I think it would be wise always to respect the legitimacy of the committee.
Quote from: tonybloke on March 01, 2011, 22:37:37
( mention that the request is under the FOI, and you expect a response in 10 working days
An organisation has 20 working days to provide information under the FOI Act.
It may be worth finding out who the FOI lead person is at the council, as they'd be the one most qualified to ensure that your request is dealt with promptly. Many of the delays with FOI requests are related to the person receiving the request not knowing what to do with it.
It's likely that the FOI doesn't apply. It applies to a parish council, and it would apply to an arms-length management company if they held information on behalf of a parish council, but it probably doesn't apply to the committee itself.
There is definitely a committee and the names and roles of committee members were published to all association members after the last AGM in 2010.
The committee publish newsletters and hold monthly meetings, but they are not prepared to give members a copy of the minutes.
The committee has dwindled to 5 members and regarding the member who recently bailed out I would not trust him to support me.
At this stage we are not looking to try to force the committee out but rather defending our own position.
We are meeting with the local newspaper tomorrow to discuss our story.
I was informed today that our MP is meeting with the leader of the borough council to discuss the deteriorating situation at the allotments.
It has been a struggle, but we are still on the allotments and even the sun came out today.
Do we have the same property rights renting an allotment as people renting a dwelling?
There is a landlord/tenant situation with both, so shouldn't our association as our landlord have to act within the laws applying to tenants in general.
So a landlord harassing an allotment tenant is no different from a landlord harassing a tenant from their home. Am I correct in assuming this?
Regarding other rights, I was not given an opportunity for a fair and unbiased hearing. I was judged by the association committee guilty of thefts without any opportunity to hear details of the allegations, so natural justice principles were abused.
The committee held another biased 'hearing' at which they judged I was in arrears with my rent.
Does anyone have knowledge or experience of the Human Rights Act relating to 'Right to a fair hearing' and property rights.
I believe the association committee have acted unlawfully against us on several counts and we are now looking to bring a legal action against them.
The local newspaper reporter has spoken to them regarding our evictions and other matters I cannot mention here, so the committee would now be expecting a lot of trouble to come their way.
Actually..I thought committee doesn't have any power to deal with things like theft...only thing they can do is reports 'supposed' theft to police and they will deal with it. Committees role is to deal with memberships, rules of the membership etc.
Quote from: mahonia on March 05, 2011, 21:14:23
Do we have the same property rights renting an allotment as people renting a dwelling?
There is a landlord/tenant situation with both, so shouldn't our association as our landlord have to act within the laws applying to tenants in general.
So a landlord harassing an allotment tenant is no different from a landlord harassing a tenant from their home. Am I correct in assuming this?
No. There are some rights in common, but in general it's very different. Harrassment specifically recognises that your home is pretty well sacred, whereas your allotment is nothing special.
Quote from: mahonia on March 05, 2011, 21:14:23
Regarding other rights, I was not given an opportunity for a fair and unbiased hearing. I was judged by the association committee guilty of thefts without any opportunity to hear details of the allegations, so natural justice principles were abused.
The committee held another biased 'hearing' at which they judged I was in arrears with my rent.
Does anyone have knowledge or experience of the Human Rights Act relating to 'Right to a fair hearing' and property rights.
There's nothing to be gained by arguing HRA here. HRA probably does apply to the committee as they are discharging a public function, though it would still be a tricky argument to make. Your Article 6 right to a fair trial applies to judicial, or quasi-judicial hearings, not the delibarations of public authorities. Your right to the enjoyment of you property under the First Protocol is already a common law right.
What you should be thinking about are the public law arguments that the committee have not followed due process, have behaved unreasonably (research Wednesbury unreasonableness), and have offended natural justice.
Quote from: mahonia on March 05, 2011, 21:14:23
I believe the association committee have acted unlawfully against us on several counts and we are now looking to bring a legal action against them.
The local newspaper reporter has spoken to them regarding our evictions and other matters I cannot mention here, so the committee would now be expecting a lot of trouble to come their way.
If you have been served with a notice purporting to forfeit your tenancy for a breach of your tenancy condition then you can apply to the court for relief from forfeiture - I think under the Councty Court Act, but I'm not sure. Your grounds would be that the notice does not comply with S.146 Law of Property 1925. That's all you need really. If you're going to represent yourself you've got a bit of work to do, because if you bring an action and you start banging on about the committee telling lies and burning rubbish you'll easily find yourself kicked out of court with an order for costs. You need to understand how the process works.
You also can't just start an action. The court will expect to see how you've given the other side every opportunity to settle your claim. If there isn't a specific pre-action protocol for an application for relief from forfeiture (and I have a feeling there is) then there's a generic one, but you need to be sure to follow it carefully - download it from the court service web site. You need to formally serve your claim on the committee and give them time to respond, and propose some kind of alternative resolution. Only when all that fails can you send a final letter before claim and set an altematum either to settle or face court action. The court expects you to use the court as an absolute last resort.
Please don't take legal advice on the internet from an unqualified barrack-room lawer. IMHO you have an excellent case, so best bet is to pop in and see a lawer and get a negotiated settlement - including your legal costs.
Your advice is much appreciated and I have a good local law firm in mind. You have given me the advice I needed so that I don't go off on a tangent but focus on the real issues and the ones which I am likely to succeed with.
I will research the legal procedures involved in bringing an action as you suggested, before instructing a solicitor.
This matter has gone on for many months and you have read my posts and noted that the association have acted unlawfully and unfairly in several ways and their response to my recent proposal for mediation was to harass and threaten me in front of a witness which shows how arrogant and foolish they are.
The committee have been bullying people off their plots for years and most people have just walked away but for once they have someone who is not prepared to put up with them and they don't know how to deal with it.
I will let you know how I get on with the solicitors.
Help please.
Our plots have been fenced off so we cannot access them. We assume this was done at the weekend when we were not on the allotments. We have crops and possessions on the plots.
Now that this has happened, presumably our course of action is the county court.
Unwashed has mentioned that this may happen and it has.
Hello Mahonia,
I've only just scanned this thread, and it sounds terrible - reminding me slightly of a situation we had on site about 3 years ago - but your case is much worse.
The similarities are that the committee were long-established, autocratic and abusive towards anyone who objected to the way they did things. Refusing to share the constitution, minutes of meetings etc is all familiar. To cut a long story short we successfully gathered support from plot holders, called an EGM and the committee changed (although we offered them the chance to carry on and work along side new committee members voted in at the EGM, they chose to go).
However your case seems to be beyond those steps - it seems to me the only people who can sort out this kind of flagrant mismanagement are the Council, they should call in their legal department and suspend the lease agreement - If they are failing you then have you tried going to the local press?
However, to offer you a possible light at the end of the tunnel - in the 3 years since the change in management on our site we have turned around a badly run down site which matches your description quite closely, businesses have been turfed off, waste ground cleaned up and re-let and although there is still a lot to do, the community of the site is thriving with many plot holders volunteering to help clean up days etc.
So please don't give up! Dig your heals in and force the council to meet their responsibilities - throw everything at them - local press, MPs - whatever it takes.
Hope this helps
Sophie
One more thing - I've just been reading a bit more indepth, and seen the article about the Council taking back control...
Surely that means you just have to hang on til the end of the month? And then the committee are dissolved and they have no right to do anything?
Or do you think the council will try to re-establish another committee?
Either way, there will be some hard work to do and you probably better off with the council volunteering themselves to do it, rather than new committee members from a recalcitrant membership!
However I've no idea what to do about your pressing issue - I guess you have already been in touch with the council?
I am beginning to wonder whether someone from your committee is eavesdropping this thread. I would not have known about the re-enter policy and I would be surprised if anyone at our allotment know about it.
So two plots have been fenced off over the weekend. This would have either taken a lot of work and even if it was done by the committee it must have cost the association quite a bit of money. Is this best use of the association's funds?
As others have said, fight it which ever way you can.
Surely now you could get enough names to to sign up for an EGM with a motion of 'no confidence in the current committee' and another one about the removal of the fences?
What was the outcome of the press meeting?
Regards
Bluecar
Mahonia, the committee have re-entered, and that evicts you. I posted about re-entry here (http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,66009.msg671335.html#msg671335).
Now that you have been evicted you have no right to go on the plot or the site.
You must now apply to the court for relief from forfeiture. If I understand the situation correctly from what you've said then you'll almost cartainly be reinstated as tenants, even if the committee re-lets the plots, but it's obviously inconvenient not to be on our plot at the start of the spring. You should also get an award for costs which will cover most of your legal fees, so my advice would be to go and see a solicitor without delay.
The committee are now responsible for keeping all of your stuff safe and secure - they're what's called involuntary bailees - so try to make an inventory of everything you left behind because you'l need to bill the ccommittee for anything they dispose of or lose.
Well that knocks the EGM on the head as far as you organising it. Can you contact other members via telephone/email to do it on your behalf?
Can I visit the site if my friend, another plot holder invites me to his plot?
The fencing must have cost a bit and would have taken a lot of time to erect. It does show you how serious the dispute has become and how heavy handed the committee are.
After being harassed and threatened, I suppose peaceable re-entry was their only option left, but at great risk to them.
It was expected and we will just apply for relief as Unwashed has correctly advised. Obviously it is inconvenient at Spring time, but we have a plan b now.
Also they have posted a notice in the middle of the plots, which we won't be able to read unless we enter the site.
We will need to enter the site, but we will not go onto the fenced plots.
Someone said that maybe one of the committee are eavesdropping this thread. Well that may be, but it is more likely it is because the chair woman is a director of a property management company so may know a bit about lettings. Although clearly not that much!!!
We do have personal possessions in sheds and greenhouse so how will we know they are being looked after?
Sorry folks but I'm beginning to think this is a wind up.
Quote from: bluecar on March 07, 2011, 20:25:29
Sorry folks but I'm beginning to think this is a wind up.
What do you base your opinion on? Anything in particular?
Was contacting the police - no reply on outcome.
Was contacting a solicitor - no reply on outcome
Was contacting the press - no reply on outcome.
Was contacting the CEO of the council - no reply on outcome.
Perhaps some photographs of the fencing and identification of the site will help me to support this further.
Regards
Colin
Colin, it's an internet forum, just words on a page - it makes little difference whether it's actually happening out there in the real world or not. I'm happy investing my time and effort in posting the best advice I can because I empathise with mahonia's plight, and I would hope that was true for all of us. If it's a wind-up then there's no harm done, because it still explores important issues.
Hello Unwashed
Unfortunately, I can't agree with you. There has been 9 pages of correspondence. As always I respect your views, but as commented we have not had responses to actions that were meant to be carried out. If it is a wind up , which I feel it is,t hen it has wasted a lot of our time.
Regards Bluecar
I feel we need to reply to recent posts which are not supportive of our plight. This situation we are in is very real and we have told it how it is.
I am very surprised that someone feels this is somehow just a wind up. We joined this forum to explain our situation which we thought would alert people to what can happen when things go wrong and we have received great support and very good advice which would help our case.
Our plight is more about bullying and the abuse of powers rather than allotments. But it does happen and other folk have told their own stories on this forum which are similar to ours.
We have tried to get support from our council but they are not interested but not all councils are like that and there are many cases of councils intervening, mediating or even taking the allotments back. It is just that our council has a different attitude and allotments are not their priority.
Our MP is happy to discuss our plight and he is meeting with the council to see what can be done, but I am not hopeful.
Unwashed is very practical and has helped us to understand the various legal issues and our options and he clearly has knowledge and experience in these situations.
We now have a choice, either walk away and let the bullies win or carry on with our fight.
We are going to fight them all the way.
So please no more suggestions about wind ups.
Hi mahonia, don't take bluecar's concern personally, it wasn't motivated by a lack of concern. As you've gone to the press there would be no harm in letting us know what site you're on would there? It would settle our concerns.
We had a comparable turnaround after someone insisted on standing against the Chair when she came up for re-election.
the story is imminent. we had our photos taken today and the paper has told us that as there will be 2 articles, ours will be published either this Friday or next week.
be assured we will reveal all once published.
PS. a question for you Unwashed, one of the plots is not fully fenced in that they have left the shed and greenhouse free to access, but we don't want to touch anything. they have also moved some of our stuff from the plot and moved it to outside the shed. It is almost as if they want us to take our stuff away.
If you want a laugh, a plot holder told us today that they fenced off his plot by mistake!!!! as they got the plot number wrong. How incompetent is that.
The Kent and Sussex Courier printed an article today about our allotment association. The website is: www.thisiskent.uk/tunbridgewells
The allotments are the Hawkenbury Allotments in Halls Hole Road TN2 which is on the east side of Tunbridge Wells, Kent.
The association is Hawkenbury Allotment Holders' Association known as HAHA and the Chair is Dr Janet Elizabeth Sturgis and Treasurer is David Collins. Both names appear in the article.
Please read the article.
Dr Janet Sturgis is the lady I have mentioned in my posts.
We have plots on this site, although they are now fenced off so we cannot work on them.
It might save other people a lot of time to have a proper link
http://www.thisiskent.co.uk/news/Probe-raffle-charities-miss/article-3317132-detail/article.html
Find the article at www.thisiskent.co.uk/news?page=3
Probe into show raffle after charities miss out
I posted a direct link to the article as it won't be on page 3 forever.
Thank you djbrenton
I was at the allotments today visiting a friend and one of the committee members was taking photos of me. They just don't get it do they?
Is this more intimidation?
I think they should hang their heads in shame and to think they made all those trumped up theft allegations about me.
The Courier printed a photo of the association president on the front page. The committee and president in my opinion have brought the association into disrepute.
I took some photos of our fenced plots today and I hope to upload them for you all to see.
I hope the committeeman had your permission to take your photograph, because if not, and the image is made public, you can sue for royalties. ;D
I can only visit my friend on the allotments and help him out with jobs. By being there I am showing the committee that I am standing firm. My friend is ok as he has me to do his digging but thats what friends are for.
It is a pity we can't get in our greenhouse as we have a lovely crop of winter lettuces (Density) and mixed salad greens which will now die off through lack of water.
Also we have covered our rhubarb for forcing and before they fenced off the plot we picked a bundle of lovely pink stems.
I know the committee deserve a good kicking but we have to stay put and legal and bide our time.
We will get there, hopefully soon.
Hello Mahonia.
I know you were upset over my last comment, but I was finding it difficult to see where all the advice given by A4A members had resulted in actual outcomes. Your site is extremely large. It has built up an excellent reputation for its annual show. However there are now other issues around some of the funding going to (or not going to) charity. There is also your situation.
It would still be useful to see some photos of your fenced in plot.
If your plot hasn't been fully fenced in (access to shed) then perhaps you have a get out of jail clause. Any views unwashed (or others)?
Regards
Bluecar
Thank you Bluecar. I will upload some photos shortly and you could then see what we are up against.
I would like Unwashed's opinion regarding the partly fenced plots. We are not going onto the plots as we do not want to do anything unlawful.
Plot holders are asking what on earth is going on with the fenced plots as they know we are good gardeners and look after our plots. I have told them the truth.
It is a shame that the association committee are not willing to speak with us or meet us to discuss the disputes as we feel we have a right to be heard which is being denied and it would be better to resolve issues face to face rather than going to court.
I was on the allotments today in the warm sunshine helping a friend dig his plot and again I was photographed by a committee member. What is the point of that?
I'm very unsure of my ground now because it's all common law and not easy for the layman to track down. I believe for re-entry to be effective you need to be excluded from every part of the property, so I think you could legitimately rip up their fence and carry on. But I'd suggest that's not the best strategy because there's nothing to stop the committee trying again until they get it right.
I would suggest that the better strategy is to accept that the re-entry was effective and apply to the court for releif from forfeiture, and you really ought not leave that too long as the longer you leave it the less inclined the court is to reinstate you.
Obviously, court action is not guaranteed to succeed and if it doesn't you'll likely be stuck with an order for costs. Just remind me again, what were the grounds for the eviction?
Do take qualified legal advice as soon as you can.
Thank you Unwashed, the committee have all been sent a letter disputing their claim and asking them politely to remove the fence within 14 days or we would apply for relief from forfeiture. So we are acting promptly.
The grounds upon which they are relying are rent arrears and quoting 'the rules' stating that we are overdue with our rent by 14 days. However they have refused to let us have a copy of 'the rules'.
Our rents were paid on time on July 1 2010 and our cheque was accepted. we have worked on the plots until March 4 2011, the plots were fenced on Saturday March 5 2011 when we were not there.
In January 2011, the cheque and renewal notice were returned and the Chair claimed in her letter that we were now in arrears.
We take the view that although the cheque wasn't cashed, the rent was tendered and the landlord elected to allow us to continue on the plots for some 8 months, which we feel waived any right to forfeiture.
We feel that if the association disputed our leases, they should have acted promptly back in July 2010 at the time our rents were offered. However they did not do this and we feel that their recent actions are deliberate, calculated and unlawful.
They want us out and in our opinions the association are not bothered about the legality of their actions.
We have instructed solicitors.
Regarding the fencing, we are not going to enter the plots until the matter is resolved either by them withdrawing their action or we obtain relief as we do not want to do anything which would harm our court action.
Our photo is in the Kent and Sussex Courier newspaper published today.
The article is on page 15 under the heading 'Eviction' row over allotment payments
The website is www.thisiskent.co.uk so perhaps someone would kindly do the link for us.
As you would see we are just a couple of pensioners trying to enjoy the allotments. My mistake was to complain to the Tunbridge Wells Borough Council about the businesses using the site for storage and dumping and unlawful disposal of non vegetation waste.
The association grossly over reacted and if you read our story on A4A you know what has happened to us since then.
I think that the committee made a big mistake by dragging Tara into my dispute and claiming that she is in arrears with her rent. The article does state that I paid both of our rents and membership fees back in July 2010 so where all these arears accusations are coming from we don't understand.
Tara has her own plot (in the picture) in her own name. Her rent was paid and thats that.
Tara sent a very polite letter this week to all HAHA committee members asking them to remove the fence around her plot. If they have any decency left in them, they should take it down and reinstate her tenancy.
Our story this week follows on from last week's article regarding the HAHA raffle investigation.
We are pleased with our story in the paper and the comments from the chair, Janet Sturgis have been noted.
As we told you, we have made every effort to resolve the dispute and even proposed mediation, but our proposal for mediation resulted in my being threatened and abused on the allotments.
We have decided to give HAHA 14 days to remove the fencing and if they don't we would go to court.
nope, not on page 15?
Quote from: tonybloke on March 18, 2011, 15:39:07
nope, not on page 15?
I think Mahonia meant page 15 of the actual paper - not the website
Perhaps djbrenton would set up a proper link to the article. Our story is on page 15 of the paper.
Unwashed, would you please advise me about my visiting my friend on the site and helping him with his plot? He has invited me and I have been helping him and he is a good friend.
I understand that the committee have taken back my plot, but I am still an Association member as the membership is separate from the plot leases. The committee have never disputed my membership, just the tenancy.
Friends and family of plot holders regularly visit the site and there are no 'rules' as far as I know which says they can't.
I have been seen on the site and some committee people have taken photos of me but they have not asked me to leave so I assume they are accepting me being there.
So I think I will help out my friend and enjoy the tea and company.
Quote from: mahonia on March 18, 2011, 17:42:55
Perhaps djbrenton would set up a proper link to the article. Our story is on page 15 of the paper.
It might be on page 15 of the paper - but it isn't on the website. I have searched several times and it's not coming up anywhere...
Quote from: mahonia on March 18, 2011, 18:13:12
Unwashed, would you please advise me about my visiting my friend on the site and helping him with his plot? He has invited me and I have been helping him and he is a good friend.
I understand that the committee have taken back my plot, but I am still an Association member as the membership is separate from the plot leases. The committee have never disputed my membership, just the tenancy.
Friends and family of plot holders regularly visit the site and there are no 'rules' as far as I know which says they can't.
I have been seen on the site and some committee people have taken photos of me but they have not asked me to leave so I assume they are accepting me being there.
So I think I will help out my friend and enjoy the tea and company.
Your committee are tyrants. You have every right to visit your friend if your friend invites you, but the committee may take reprisals against your friend. Putting yourself in harm's way is one thing, but your friend must make her own informed choice.
'Unwashed, would you please advise me about my visiting my friend on the site and helping him with his plot? He has invited me and I have been helping him and he is a good friend.'
Mahonia
Don't you think you have antagonised your association chairlady enough already? Wouldn't it be a good idea to simply disguise yourself with a black beard and a mustache (or a ginger one). That way you could help your friend in peace and not cause offence to anyone on your site.
A disguise ! I should have thought of that.
It is a bit frustrating that the Courier article is not on their website. I do want you all to read it as it does demonstrate what we are up against. Maybe I would need to ask the paper for permission to reproduce it. Meanwhile I will try to upload some pics I took of the fenced plots.
I am going to see my friend on the allotments and help him out, but be assured that my lady will not be going there.
I can put up with the hassle but she can't and she must be protected from the tyrant.
The facts of our situation are that I have been in a long running dispute with HAHA but my lady has never been part of the dispute, She had her own plot in her name. HAHA sent her a renewal notice back in June 2010 and her rent was paid on time and she is not in arrears.
What HAHA have done (and this is fact) is to return the rent payment cheque and claim that she is in arrears and then evict her for non payment of rent.
So WHY did they not cash the cheque?
So WHY did they not claim arrears back in July 2010?
So WHY did they allow my lady friend to cultivate her plot for 8 months if she was in arrears?
So WHY have HAHA not applied for a possession order?
So WHY have HAHA fenced off her plot?
Please feel free to draw your own conclusions.
Confused of Enfield, either it is in the paper or not.
Even if the committee had properly evicted you from your plot you could still help out other plot holders if they asked you to. When I lost my first plot that's precisely what I did - my in-Laws have plots on the same site and I visited them with my son and did a little work with them, mainly to give my son time on the plots and with them, but also to keep myself known up there as a keen allotmenteer who wanted another plot.
As far as I'm aware it takes some rather complicated legal manoeuvres and possibly the police involvement to get someone actually banned from setting foot on a site.
...you could take a photo of the newspaper article if you're keen for us to read it as well :)
Borlotti, the article is in the paper but they have not put it on their website.
I have taken a photo of the article, perhaps Unwashed would allow me to email the photo to him.
Please let me know.
Or just post it on here yourself.....
Quote from: mahonia on March 19, 2011, 08:46:43
Borlotti, the article is in the paper but they have not put it on their website.
I have taken a photo of the article, perhaps Unwashed would allow me to email the photo to him.
Please let me know.
Sure.
Unwashed, please email me your email address.
See you PM.
Roger, I guess you'll understand why folk doubted the veracity of your story being as how it sounds so extreme - but here it is. I am so sorry that you and your wife have been treated this way - I've always hoped that allotmenteers were better than this.
You can't be evicted for "breaking the rules" and you can't be evicted for arrears if the committee refuse to accept payment. Tell me again, is anyone from the council or elsewhere mediating on your behalf yet?
(http://www.emilyware.co.uk/earthwork/images/stories/articles/hawkenbury.jpg)
I am beginning to wonder whether someone from your committee is eavesdropping this thread. I would not have known about the re-enter policy and I would be surprised if anyone at our allotment know about it.
So two plots have been fenced off over the weekend. This would have either taken a lot of work and even if it was done by the committee it must have cost the association quite a bit of money. Is this best use of the association's funds?
As others have said, fight it which ever way you can.
Surely now you could get enough names to to sign up for an EGM with a motion of 'no confidence in the current committee' and another one about the removal of the fences?
What was the outcome of the press meeting?
Regards
Bluecar
The above is a previous post - apologies couldn't get the quote to work
I believe nodig is that person. See their comment yesterday and here:
http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,66224.0.html
Regards
Bluecar
You can ban someone from a site - it's private property after all - but you'd need an injunction to enforce it.
Quote from: bluecar on March 19, 2011, 12:01:23
I am beginning to wonder whether someone from your committee is eavesdropping this thread. I would not have known about the re-enter policy and I would be surprised if anyone at our allotment know about it.
I believe nodig is that person. See their comment yesterday and here:
http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,66224.0.html
Regards
Bluecar
I suspect you're falling victim to a wind-up Bluecar.
Regardless, whether someone at mahonia's allotment is reading this forum/thread or not (it is impossible to eavesdrop on a public forum), if does not seem that they have a legitimate case to 'evict' him (or his partner) from their plots, whatever way it is done. The committee could just as well have sought advice from elsewhere.
I think nodig's comment earlier on this thread was a fair one, regardless of whether or not I agree or would take his/her advice if I was in that situation. The other thread does look like a wind-up.
Quote from: Robert_Brenchley on March 19, 2011, 12:08:43
You can ban someone from a site - it's private property after all - but you'd need an injunction to enforce it.
I'd say that the tenant has an implicit right of access to their plot, and that includes bringing guests to and fro.
That would depend on the judge. We had a situation where a couple had a plot each. One was OK, and still has her plot, the other made a lot of trouble, kept their plot in a terrible mess, with a large pile of rubbish they'd brought down, and was eventually evicted. We then had a campaign of vandalism, aimed entirely at committee members' plots. On one occasion, he was seen going down the lane at about the time the damage occurred. The police took the view that there wasn't enough for a prosecution, but read him the riot act instead, and we haven't seen him since. That's the sort of situation which could easily have ended up in the County Court if he'd been more persistent.
Thank you all for your support and comments.
I've asked Mahonia a couple of times to refrain from making unproven allegations of criminal behaviour against named individuals and have removed several of his posts because he has ignored the requests. These posts have the potential to get Dan into legal hot water and could put the forum at risk. I understand Mahonia is angry but this really isn't the place.
The association did threaten me with an injunction for trespass back in December 2010, but as expected it was just words.
I just stayed put.
It has been a long thread on the forum and we understood some people's scepticism as our story is so extreme. But we are in the public domain now that our story has been told.
Maybe a HAHA member is on the forum, but that's ok with us.
In fact the fenced off plots have focussed the attention of the newspaper reporter and the HAHA plot holders.
Regarding the cost of putting up the fencing, I am sure you would agree that this was not a proper use of association funds.
Our story in the Courier was somewhat cut back from the original 500 words, but the reporter did show the committee's attitude to Tara and I which I feel was his objective.
I hope this post is acceptable to the forum and not deleted.
Hello again, we are back on the forum.
Our plots are still fenced off and we are missing our allotments. Our belongings are impounded and we have a shed full of tools, a lawn mower and rotovator.
The lettuces and mixed salad leaves in the greenhouse are dying through lack of water.
Our rhubarb looks great and my grandchildren's strawberries have sprung to life.
The garlic bed is full of green shoots and the winter onions are doing well.
Sadly all of this is for nothing as the plots have been fenced and taken from us.
The grandchildren are going to be upset that they will not be on the allotment.
We are pleased to see the newspaper article pic has been reinstated as it is in the public domain and would not affect the forum.
I still visit my old and trusted friend at his invitation and help him out on his plot but I would prefer to be doing my own plot.
I would like to thank Unwashed for his advice and support.
:( for you both
What's your next step Mahonia in this saga for getting your belongings back?
Just to be clear, the post containing the newspaper article was never removed and therefore has not been re-instated. A number of Mahonia's posts containing potentially libellous comments were removed. Mahonia has agreed to refrain from posting anything which might cause problems for Dan and the forum.
8)Hi just got here;keep up the rebellion...!all councils appear to be the same.
Let me hear from you....Keep laughter around you...sleep well.
Hi everyone, its been a few weeks since my last post. Tara has gone on holiday to Thailand to see her family and I have been busy with solicitors regarding bringing proceedings against HAHA.
I have stopped going to see my friends on the allotments as they have told me they have received abuse and snide remarks for inviting me to the allotments.
I cannot say too much about the legal case except that we are both going to bring proceedings against the association.
Regarding our possessions on the allotments, HAHA have fenced off the plots and have posted a notice on each plot to the effect that anyone entering the plots would be regarded as trespassers.
I am not going to the site and our belongings are in the possession of the landlord, so what would you suggest?
I do have concerns about my tools as many of them are family heirlooms and have great sentimental value.
Mahonia,
Can I suggest that, as you have engaged solicitors to bring a case against your association, you seek their advice on the subject of reclaiming your property. I'm going to lock this thread now as it's not appropriate to discuss a legal case in progress on the forum.