I've just been watching reports of the demo in parliament square. It is really quite scary and I'm glad I don't have any of my young relatives taking part.
We had a demo through the centre of Leeds yesterday about 1 o'clock.
It's a shame rent a mob had to join in. It dosn't help their cause.
It keeps them off the streets I suppose... ::)
It is good to see the kids standing up for what they believe to be right.We did it all the time in my younger days but the risk of violence is always there on these demos.
:(
Poor police and especially their horses.
Prince Charles and Camilla's car was attacked.
Other news... there were 20 arrests and 8 police were seriously injured.
At least rent a mob did not throw a fire extinguisher from a building roof this time round, they just started to abuse the police and their horses, personally I would of liked to have seen a water cannon doing its stuff on a nice cold day like we have had today, next time they will be marching along in some animal protest and releasing mink to run all over the countryside, it rather took me back to my days in NI but no CS gas or plastic bullets today, what a shame, :)
It is certainly unfair that Scotland and Wales give free higher education yet English students will end up in debt for theirs.
Also, a lot of our highly qualified people are getting well paid jobs abroad to avoid having to pay off their loans.
In the end their debt will be written off and another country will have received their income tax and the benefit of their education.
We just keep the ones who can not get a job and pay them jobseekers etc.
I am disgusted that they set fire to the xmas tree in trafalgar square and i am disgusted that the defaced and urinated on the statue of winston churchill. there are no excuses, peaceful demonstrators would not do such a thing and show so little respect. these "people" are thugs and criminals and any sympathy i had has now vanished and i think that they will find that there are many many more people thinking the way i do after last night >:(
just bee watching bits of this on the news and its disgusting the way they behave >:( have no sympathy for them at all..... hope the police throw the book at the ones they got.... police should be harder on them yep the water cannon as for attacking the royal car >:(
I do not hold with the violence and vandalism and the organisers of the original peaceful demonstrations must be tearing their hair out in frustration. But at least their generation is prepared to get off of their backsides and show that they will not be pushed around. How many times have I seen admiration for the french and their active ways of showing their government they won't be pushed either. When you look at the apathetic ways our generation have just let things slide.
They say a week in politics is a long time. Not this time! It will be remembered at the next election and some of these protesters will be replacing a lot of the fat cats we keep electing back in because we are just too lazy to change.
POWER TO THE PEOPLE.
It has made some of the MPs sit up and listen to the people that voted them in instead of toeing the party line. I think the ball has started rolling and there are going to be a lot more of these demonstrations. Lets encourage them, instead of knocking them and be a bit like Ollie. 'Don't just sit there, get involved'
Bugger! I just fell off my soapbox.
I have a sticker on my guitar case that someone in a skeleton costume gave me in New Orleans 15 or so years ago. It says "Stop bitching, start a revolution". It then ruins things slightly by recommending that you join some cult near Baton Rouge, but the sentiment is sound.
Of course it's wrong to break stuff, and the fire extinguisher thrower deserves punishing for such a reckless & dangerous act. But it's also good to see the yoofs getting off their arses and showing how they feel. All this "why can't they all behave properly" stuff. It's because they're f**k**g angry at being lied to and taken for mugs.
Democracy was born when the first rock flew, not when everyone sat down to talk about it.
if the tuition fees were as they are now, my two sons would not have been able to go, get degrees and be in quite highly paid jobs now, paying lots of tax into this country's coffers..I feel very sorry for all the children of not so poor families who's full potential will never be discovered, just my opinion :-\
I fear this is just the beginning of it all.As more and more Government cuts start biting deep people will start demonstrating in a big way.
These student have families and I doubt they will forget how their child's future has been destroyed by these Tory/lib twits
Sadly the violence takes the spotlight off the issues but I doubt this Government will get a second term of office.
You know how, when you get your council tax bill, there's a breakdown of how the money will be spent over the next year. Is that available for national government?
I'd like to see a public annual statement of account listing exactly how our money is being spent. That might help us to understand why Scottish and Welsh students don't pay fees (if they study in their homeland) but English students do. It also might help to make government more directly accountable.
I have never understood why schools should be supported by the state and universities should be run like businesses. Universities, at their best, are the cutting edge of our development as a nation. Some graduates get paid more - others don't. I spent 6 years studying full-time. That was 6 years when I wasn't earning. Meantime my peers who left school and started work were working their way up from a low starting wage to a pretty respectable one. And nowadays many of the graduates are working on the supermarket checkouts or minimum wage call centres with anti-social hours. That's the ones who manage to get a job at all.
It makes you wonder why we need so many graduates if we can't afford them and they end up unemployed or doing jobs that don't actually require a degree?
The trouble is that university places should be available on the basis of excellence but it doesn't seem to work out that way. The advantages of birth and wealth seem to outweigh intellectual ability. Money can buy you brains it seems.
Difficult one this.
Have been through the system twice now. First time was twelve years ago just as they introduced fees in the first place, second five years ago when I figured out what I actually wanted to do with me life! Now have a fairly large debt to the state which I have barely started paying back. Since I'm now on mat leave & looking unlikely to go back to work, I can't see when I'll be starting neither. I was lucky in the first year that my parents paid for everything, but had to work through second & third years as my dad was made redundant. Not sure whether I'd have managed if I'd have had to pay for such high fees. Can entirely sympathise with the students of today and feel quite proud that 'youth' have got the gumption to go out and protest. However, there are a small minority who are only there to cause trouble with little regard for the reason for the protests. Attacking the royals, who have absolutely nothing to do with this issue apart from being high profile, has been a backwards step in keeping the public sympathy.
Problem is I can see the other side of the argument. My husband got a job in the department he studied in when we finished uni and has been there ever since. The department has consistently struggled financially over the last six or seven years, resulting in them losing a quarter of staff through voluntary redundancy or unfilled empty posts, despite the fact that there has been no drop in workload. If you look at the increasing numbers of students going through the system it is clear that something has to change. The system simply wasn't designed to educate this amount of students.
Time I feel to decide whether it is right to push so many through the system when a lot simply head to uni as it's an 'obvious' next step. Many regard it as more of a coming of age rather than a vital step in their education. Many jobs do not necessarily need a university education, but it's become a way of employers simply shortlisting candidates when there are so many to chose from. Unfortunately now you need a masters to stand out :-\
I just hope at the next 'Anarchist riot in our capital city that no one gets killed especially the police who are doing their duty, would I give an extended educated to the no marks that appear on my TV urinating on a statue of Sir Winston Churchill, disfiguring the Cenotaph and attacking the Royal family a free University education for three or four years, no I would not,
Quote from: PurpleHeather on December 10, 2010, 06:59:43
It is certainly unfair that Scotland and Wales give free higher education yet English students will end up in debt for theirs.
Also, a lot of our highly qualified people are getting well paid jobs abroad to avoid having to pay off their loans.
In the end their debt will be written off and another country will have received their income tax and the benefit of their education.
We just keep the ones who can not get a job and pay them jobseekers etc.
It`s not free here in Wales, the fee`s have been frozen at £6,000 I believe.
In the good old days you had to be clever to get to university, the top 10 of the A form that went to Grammar School, not private school. I was not that clever, but don't care as the work was very difficult. Let the clever ones, that want to learn go for free, and the others that just want to drink and play around go to technical college, or even get a job, if they can, not many about. If you want to study something that is not useful to the community go to night school. Do agree that they have a point that the government lied, but you leave the police horses alone, they are not involved in this and can't protect themselves. Charlie looked a bit shocked, about time he woke up to the real world. Make him live on a Council estate and get youths on drugs etc and he may wake up to real life. Actually a good reality programme Charles and Camilla live on a Council estate on the dole for two weeks. I love it.
I don't agree with the whole, 'they've been lied to, they're upset so it's ok' nonsense. I've been lied to about things I've found equally as upsetting but it's never made me want to go and vandalise other people's property. Neither has it made me want to harm animals or beat someone black and blue. Utter rot. I'm not some fuddy duddy sitting here tutting at the younger generation (I'm not exactly past it myself, LOL) Good on those who felt the urge to get up, shout and be heard about what they believe in, lord knows we should have more of it, but I don't think for one minute that some of the behaviour of yesterday is excusable. Constructive demonstrations are one thing but the scenes of the past few weeks, particularly yesterday, are a disgrace. And, no, the scenes are not all down to non-students who came along to cause trouble. Now all the manpower and hours to fix and clean up the results of these demos - who's going to pay for that.....?
Cuts are being made everywhere. It's brutal and there aren't many people who are going to escape the fallout from them.
I feel for the students. Though obviously not the poor behaviour which are probably a very small minority. I have also heard of students going for a peaceful protest but then being set on by the police.
My daughter got a very poor deal at Uni: very few lectures and very few tutorials. Very poor standards of teaching. Very little support. The students at least need to feel they are getting good value for money. If large numbers of them do not go to Uni there are not enough jobs to go round and the unemployment benefit/housing benefit will be more than the increase in fees. What is the point in that?
My daughter worked in a call centre after Uni, it really set her up. She currently has a very good job
What I want to know is who pays for the research done in Universities. Should the students be expected to pay?
Measures are going to be put in place for the poorest so they will be ok, it is those who are in the next group who will really struggle.
I still think that the banks are not being asked to contribute enough and there needs to be a much more tough stance on tax avoidance schemes. At the moment the richest people pay very little tax at all.
I don't feel for the students, why do you have to go to uni in the first place (just to toss it off and smoke a big fat one and then take a year out, mens bits), I can understand if it is a subject that needs a bit of explaining from a Don to get their brain matter round it, but media studies, performing arts, do me a favour, I know plenty of lads that went on to Tech colledge who are now successful and if these are the tow rags of tomorrow that we are going to put our trust in god help us,
So what's the answer then?
Any graduates here willing to pay back a little of what they've earned since getting their degrees to help pay for the students of the future? I think not.
We're all paying for our parents' pensions after all.
I don't condone the non-peaceful part of the demonstration at all, total shame on them.
Ninny
I really think you have hit it on the head Ninnyscrops. If we do not help the students now with their fees why will they want to pay for our pensions in the future.
Mr Smith - what is your problem with Media Studies, Performing Arts, etc? Do you know what these programmes involve? Do you not think it is worth studying, for instance, the relationship between Public Relations and how television news is constructed in a particular way to present a certain version of events? Or, the ways in which China blocks access to the internet - or how, when you do a Google search, certain items crop up more than others - how this is related to political economy and the power of money? Do you not think educating our youngsters about this is worthwhile? To be media savvy in this day and age is fundamentally crucial. All their information is pretty much derived through the media these days - it is how young people live (and with Media Studies, computer use, radio, TV, mobile phone communication is covered), If we do not teach students the power of these, then we are guilty of leaving them behind in the fast-paced global world of communications. There is a widespread misperception of MS as consisting of 'just watching Eastnders'. This is not the case. Sophisticated and critical knowledge about how the media works is important today.
Quote from: spudcounter on December 11, 2010, 08:04:50
Mr Smith - what is your problem with Media Studies, Performing Arts, etc? Do you know what these programmes involve? Do you not think it is worth studying, for instance, the relationship between Public Relations and how television news is constructed in a particular way to present a certain version of events? Or, the ways in which China blocks access to the internet - or how, when you do a Google search, certain items crop up more than others - how this is related to political economy and the power of money? Do you not think educating our youngsters about this is worthwhile? To be media savvy in this day and age is fundamentally crucial. All their information is pretty much derived through the media these days - it is how young people live (and with Media Studies, computer use, radio, TV, mobile phone communication is covered), If we do not teach students the power of these, then we are guilty of leaving them behind in the fast-paced global world of communications. There is a widespread misperception of MS as consisting of 'just watching Eastnders'. This is not the case. Sophisticated and critical knowledge about how the media works is important today.
No I don't think media studies or performing arts are subjects to be studied at uni, performing arts, get yourself on to X factor, media studies get a job on a local newspaper at seventeen and stop dossing about on the bloody country, ;)
I have worked and still work with people who have been given jobs based on the fact that they have a uni degree. However not one degree gained by any of these people has any relevance to the job they are employed to do.
I do understand that at the moment jobs are hard to come by, however these people were employed before the job crisis we are going through today.
I am with Mr Smith that some students are using Uni as an excuss to toss it off for a year or two, which in turn spoils it for the geniune students who need a degree which is relevant to their future carrer.
I did not go to Uni myself as I was brought up to go out and get a job. Today I do have a good job and that has been through hard work on my part, through holding down a full time job and studying in my spare time for approx 6 years.
It is true that employers have been conned into thinking that graduates are better that those who have risen from the ranks and most of us have been in jobs where some nutter with a degree has got a job over us and made a terrible mess of things then left the firm
Actually I got a good redundancy pay out from it but that is another story.
This almost feels like knowing the answer is 42 but not knowing or even understanding the question or when it was asked.
I honestly don't understand these fees or why Cable and co say they must be brought in. Irrespective what "course" each student is on it seems to me that the "HMRC" customer is going to be forking out the cash until the individuals can stump up. Everyone seems to be saying that they (students) will be better off even if they go over the minimum salary to start repaying. So that means that probably many will never repay a penny. This makes no sense to me as it is presented. I suspect it makes no sense to the students that are doing finances.
So why are they upping the fees and leaving it to the institutions to charge basically what they like? Who is going to ensure that there is a standard for tuition that must be equal all over the Country? Where is the protection for the student (and ultimately all those "HMRC Customers") to ensure that the level of tuition is commensurate with the fees paid.
As for the demo well that will be resolved in the courts anyone found to be acting outside the law deserves what they get.
If we want peaceful demonstrations then we will have to rethink how they are organised and who should police it and who should pay for it. This is something that will affect us all over the next decade at least. I don't mean that the student fees will go on that long but i do believe we are in for more of this.
For those injured during the demo i wish them well. For those involved in criminal acts I hope they are big enough to admit them and accept responsibility for their actions.
Bill
P.S. I believe we all need students and the more the merrier. The difficult bit is picking the little "nuggets"
Quote from: Bill Door on December 11, 2010, 20:59:08
This almost feels like knowing the answer is 42 but not knowing or even understanding the question or when it was asked.
I honestly don't understand these fees or why Cable and co say they must be brought in. Irrespective what "course" each student is on it seems to me that the "HMRC" customer is going to be forking out the cash until the individuals can stump up. Everyone seems to be saying that they (students) will be better off even if they go over the minimum salary to start repaying. So that means that probably many will never repay a penny. This makes no sense to me as it is presented. I suspect it makes no sense to the students that are doing finances.
So why are they upping the fees and leaving it to the institutions to charge basically what they like? Who is going to ensure that there is a standard for tuition that must be equal all over the Country? Where is the protection for the student (and ultimately all those "HMRC Customers") to ensure that the level of tuition is commensurate with the fees paid.
As for the demo well that will be resolved in the courts anyone found to be acting outside the law deserves what they get.
If we want peaceful demonstrations then we will have to rethink how they are organised and who should police it and who should pay for it. This is something that will affect us all over the next decade at least. I don't mean that the student fees will go on that long but i do believe we are in for more of this.
For those injured during the demo i wish them well. For those involved in criminal acts I hope they are big enough to admit them and accept responsibility for their actions.
Bill
P.S. I believe we all need students and the more the merrier. The difficult bit is picking the little "nuggets"
Irrespective of what constitutes a good degree or not if you have a policy that half of 18 years olds need a degree (if only to keep unemployment figures down by keeping them out of the job market for 3-7 years- including A level time) it will prove ridiculously expensive... that's why fees need to go up and students need to shoulder the debt... 30 years ago when only @10% went to Uni and were by extension "cleverer" we could afford to finance them differently... :-\
Wise words indeed, saddad.
" Today I do have a good job and that has been through hard work on my part, through holding down a full time job and studying in my spare time for approx 6 years. "
Skint and Bitter
Quote from: spudcounter on December 11, 2010, 08:04:50
Mr Smith - what is your problem with Media Studies, Performing Arts, etc? Do you know what these programmes involve? Do you not think it is worth studying, for instance, the relationship between Public Relations and how television news is constructed in a particular way to present a certain version of events? Or, the ways in which China blocks access to the internet - or how, when you do a Google search, certain items crop up more than others - how this is related to political economy and the power of money? Do you not think educating our youngsters about this is worthwhile? To be media savvy in this day and age is fundamentally crucial. All their information is pretty much derived through the media these days - it is how young people live (and with Media Studies, computer use, radio, TV, mobile phone communication is covered), If we do not teach students the power of these, then we are guilty of leaving them behind in the fast-paced global world of communications. There is a widespread misperception of MS as consisting of 'just watching Eastnders'. This is not the case. Sophisticated and critical knowledge about how the media works is important today.
That's training, not education.
Quote from: Melbourne12 on December 12, 2010, 11:45:44
That's training, not education.
So training is not education??? ::)
Actually training is not education... but that's a whole philosphical area I'm not going to open up... the key to education is that it brings or leads (ducare) something from inside (e as in exit)... you can train a fruit tree but you can't train it to write poetry... :-X
Thought-provoking viewing!
http://vimeo.com/17725946 (http://vimeo.com/17725946)
shows the police up for what they are, a bunch of THUGS, employed by the govt to beat up protesters, sad innit?
I saw about 8 minutes of the film. I was patiently waiting for the peaceful demonstration part. Strange that some people only want the police to have water cannons next time.
Bill
If that's the mentality of students today then the future is looking very bleak.
no, its the mentality of hired thugs. Don't tar all students with the same brush please. Almost all students I know realise the fee increases are necessary, that most people will actually end up paying back less and are appalled at the violoence which will be counter productive. Those who do not think this way are in the minority, and haven't bothered to read the "detail".
I would bet that many of the people carrying out the violence are only there as an excuse to do so, not actually for the cause... reminds me of protests 20 years ago, etc, when students would be paid to attend protests, they'd be picked up and taken to the protest in a coach. Most did not even really know what they were protesting about, and many were just "hired thugs" out for as much trouble as possible or needed the money and didn't want violoence.
I feel sorry for children who have parents who do not respect education and students, and feel they should "just get a job". I bet not many of you who disparage turf management courses, could say why the chemistry of the soil would affect grass growth and how to correct soil colloidal properties so as to ensure the pitches are suitable (and no, I am not/have not done a turf management course! But I respect those that have, and that's why they earn more than most of you who "just got a job")
Stop criticising all students. Just criticise the ones who are carrying out the violence... (yes, they need the "book thrown at them".
oh... i'd like you see you educate a tree... possibly not the best analogy...
train - "to develop or form the habits, thoughts, or behaviour of (a child or other person) by discipline and instruction"
educate - "to develop the faculties and powers of (a person) by teaching, instruction, or schooling.
or "to qualify by instruction or training for a particular calling, practice, etc.
Quote from: mat on December 13, 2010, 11:01:26
no, its the mentality of hired thugs. Don't tar all students with the same brush please. Almost all students I know realise the fee increases are necessary, that most people will actually end up paying back less and are appalled at the violence which will be counter productive. Those who do not think this way are in the minority, and haven't bothered to read the "detail".
I agree that the violence is not from most students - it's mostly self-proclaimed "Anarchists" - living out of mummy & daddy's pockets. I disagree about the increase in fees being good though - I have read the detail and I think it's terrible. It means that state education is free until you're 18, and then costs between £6k and £9k a year. I do not accept that further privatising higher education is "progress". Why stop at Universities? Why not charge everyone for A-level education? And when it comes to it, why not privatise all of our health care and road system?
Oh, plus a number of MPs made a personal pledge and have broken it. That deserves a bit of civil unrest in it's own right.
I am a mature student. On my previous (very good) salary I'll be paying back £50/month MORE on the current system than on the new system. which would I rather?!
yes, fees go will go up, but it's only the richest who'll end up paying back more (and the whole amount)
It's a tax, not a debt, and a tax which will be wiped clean when reaching 50yrs of age...
I found out last week when going for interviews at a Uni, that Americans come to study at UK universities because they are so cheap, even at International rates. To study law in the USA would cost them $150,000 over three years...
it would be lovely to have free education for all for life, but in the current enconomic climate it is not realistic.
oh, and the Lib Dems did not break their pledge. They are NOT solely in power - they are part of a coalition, and are really only a minority part of that coalition. They realistically could not make all their pledges some to reality. If you marry, you give and take with your values and wishes, this is what a coalition govt is about. And I honestly believe they are trying to get the country out of the mess Labour and the Banks left it in.
QuoteIf that's the mentality of students today then the future is looking very bleak
But I think that the future is looking very bleak for students. When they talk about jub cuts they often say it will be from natural wastage. But this in effect is saying they will not be taking on any new starters. With little or no public sector job availablitiy and most companies being very careful about taking on new staff the student population have little to look forward to. Students are looking at continuing unemployment. Though I suppose that actually in these circumstances not having to pay the fees up front is great.
Can I now go to Uni for free? Since there is no likelihood of ever being in a position ot pay it back.
The individuals signed personal pledges that they would not vote in favour of increased tuition fees. They have broken those personal pledges & I hope that they are punished in the next general election. It's a shame that as a candidate in the by-election next May, I will be tarnished by those individuals that have broken their promises. I spent a month canvassing for the Lib Dems door to door before the general election - I know what I was told to tell people on their doorsteps & people did not expect this.
Yes they did break the pledges they made.They could have voted no.The final outcome of the vote makes no difference to the fact that they broke their pledge.
You can not defend them it is so clear cut.
Not men and women of honour then .
All the best Ollie,think you may need a tin helmet when you go canvassing again. :)
They could, at least, have abstained.
Mind you they were put in an unenviable position by their coalition partners in that, if my understanding is right, it was the Lib-Dems who were largely responsible for drafting the package.
The mistake they made was to sign the pledge in the first place. Rather naive of them I thought. But then they didn't really expect to be in government at all.
As a former Lib-Dem candidate myself, I must admit to being disappointed. Not honourable behaviour from the honourable members.
Quote from: grawrc on December 13, 2010, 14:14:22
The mistake they made was to sign the pledge in the first place. Rather naive of them I thought. But then they didn't really expect to be in government at all.
Exactly. Easy to pledge anything when you don't expect to have to honour it...
Why can't businesses/industry cover the tuition fees of selected university students who gain the grades they require in the subjects they require and which make them employable by them?