Hi all, well this year again was a mixed success. Onions and spuds were terrific, I got a fair load of tomatoes, yet many other crops were quite a failure. Again, the root veg were almost a total flop (except parsnips which seem to thrive for me). I am still incapapble of growing a carrot.
I am starting to wonder if my soil is rich? Weeds grow fine ;D and there seems to be plenty of worms and other insects, and yet the plants often seem stunted or they just produce badly, Like broccoli that don't really produce heads, aubergines that never flowered, beetroot that got leaves but not really bulbs. Yet if the soil was really no good, I would not get nice onions or potatoes would I?
I will have cow manure to add this winter and I have mulched the flower and herb beds and the fruit bushes with stable waste that has horse pee and poo in it (so it's just a kind of rich straw). However I don't really feed the veg aside from that except for an occasional handful of fertilizer granules. Should I actually be giving them much more feed? Or do I just need to work harder weeding? Now I have the basics of rotating the site, buying and sowing seeds etc more or less sorted out, I still don't know how to make teh veg really THRIVE. This is now my 4th year and I am starting to lose enthusiasm, I feel like I take a lot down to the allotment but in the end I don't bring that much home. What do you think I am doing wrong still?
dont lose heart its maybe just a simple reason why certain thing have struggled in my opinion ( not worth much i know ).
its pointless adding anything unlass you actually know whats already there i would have the soil tested for all things includuing n.p.k ph all micro nutrients organic matter c.e.c .
it may cost a few pounds or euros to do it but why struggle on guessing what the problem is it maybe a simple thing needs adding to bring it to life.
i am growing giant veg and i get my soil tested twice yearly you would be amazed at the difference six month has when growing anyhow im waffling on now good luck in the future mal
Difficult to tell overall ... certainly on my little plot my beetroots were slow to develop this year, almost certainly due to being in shade for too much of the day. The same seed did much better on the other side of the plot last year, where there's a bit more sun (further away from the trees). My onions have had varied success as well, again it may be ligh/shade dependant. For me it's being a case of moving stuff around each year 'till I find where stuff is most happy, then ignoring any concept of "rotation" if necessary. Obviously high plants at the back (north-east side for me), lower stuff at the front needs to be taken into account as well, but as I have relatively little space I tend to cram plants in as soon as there's room and hope it'll cope ... sometimes it doesn't ??? but in response to your basic query, yes, feed feed feed. Plants will often "survive" in poor (for them) conditions, with just a few seeds produced, but at the end of the day that's all that's really necessary to continue the species. What we as gardeners are trying to do is encourage the plants to effectively over-produce, in many instances, and for this the plants need very optimum conditions, lots of appropriate nutrients and plenty water.
I couldn't work out why some peoples veg, like Peas, were superb and mine positively medicore. Then I figured it out - people feed their plants lots on my site. It varies from person to person, some have a barrel with horse muck, or comfrey leaves and filled with water, that they use on their plants, others use blood fish and bone sprinkled liberally. Also people trench their food waste (peelings and tea bags etc), and then grow beans over the top and get great results.
So I've picked up a few lessons this year by looking at what others do on my site
So don't get too disheartened :)
... just had a further thought ... definitely worth doing a soil acidity test ... if I remember correctly, potatoes like an acid environment (or at least do very well in one) whereas brassicas do well with lime in the soil, an alkili environment ... could help explain why your spuds do well but your brocolli don't
Some years are just plain bad for some crops. Last year gobs of cucumbers; this year only 1!
I do know though- it is probable if you over fertilize tomatoes you'll get lots of healthy greens and few fruits.
Throwing fertilizer at plants can be a big mistake.
So if in doubt, try a soil analysis as a starter to see where you really are chemistry-wise.
Whatever you do, don't give up. The fact that you had lots of tomatoes is wonderful. How many people can say that??
Yes..I think we all have some crops that don't do particularly well..and it varies every year..well, nature give and takes..can't have it all ;)
All the manure and stable waste is nitrogen rich..and will encourage acidic soil conditions. Soil testing is ideal..but if you finding it difficult to get it done..how about doing regular liming for brassicas, peas and beans..once a year is enough. And use some balanced fertilizer for everything...eg.blood, fish and bone meal. Something fruiting and/or flowering crops you could give home made comfrey/nettle/seaweed liquid feed.
I don't think you will need increase your feeding as such..but knowing what crops need what kind of feed and how much, is most important. You'll get there ;)
I think 1066 has it. You've got to put a lot in to the ground to get a lot out. So farmyard manure, a few buckets of chicken pellets, growmore, bonemeal, Miracle Gro etc - mix it up a bit so everything can find the things it needs.
It sounds as if you are not doing too badly and part of growing stuff is accepting that not everything is going to work every year. Maybe reading up on exactly which plants need what nutrients and where they come from would help a bit. But I have done all of the above and more and my carrots are still rubbish. Bummer isn't it?
Strange how everyone does things I get the feeling I am a lazy beggar.
Once I have prepared my beds and planted out thats it more or less it! apart from just a bit of hoeing now and again.
This is how I prepare my beds; http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Soil%20prep/soil%20prep.html (http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Soil%20prep/soil%20prep.html)
I don't water as a rule, I will if we have a dry spell after planting out but if we get enough rain then I don't bother!
I never feed again
Once it is in the soil it fends for itself I haven't time to mess around with stuff that is out in the open.
I have enough on with watering and feeding my greenhouse & tunnel without worrying about the stuff in the beds.
Usually I am satisfied with my harvests and as you can see here I grow quite good stuff under this regime, lord only know what it would be like if I watered and fed as well!
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd27/tgalmanac/August%202010/P1130603.jpg)
This may be way off beam, but I've found that the consistency/texture of the soil makes a difference. Last back end I covered my plot to a depth of several inches with home-made compost, all vegetable with no animal component, and my soil has been completely different this year. I have no idea of the acidity or otherwise, I don't feed crops, but I've had my best ever year by far, I'm sure plants have found it easier to grow ....is this sounding like nonsense? But it's worked for me and I'm going to do it again this year however unscientific it may be. Don't give up, think of your pride in your successes. You'll miss it if you stop!
I always feed a lot. I think carrots in particular like a good amount of PFB but I also use a lot of comfrey and nettle teas. Together with loads of manure and compost.
I think that watering needs depends on whether the roots can access water. If they cannot then watering is the only answer. In my garden there are several feet of gravel in the way, on the lottie this has been removed and the water is mostly more available to the roots. If I do not water in the garden I can forget about growing anything at all vegwise.
Quote from: small on October 01, 2010, 18:03:29
This may be way off beam, but I've found that the consistency/texture of the soil makes a difference. Last back end I covered my plot to a depth of several inches with home-made compost, all vegetable with no animal component, and my soil has been completely different this year. I have no idea of the acidity or otherwise, I don't feed crops, but I've had my best ever year by far, I'm sure plants have found it easier to grow ....is this sounding like nonsense? But it's worked for me and I'm going to do it again this year however unscientific it may be. Don't give up, think of your pride in your successes. You'll miss it if you stop!
I'm glad to hear that Small as I've tried to do something similar for this coming winter. When I planted my spuds last March, my clay soil was wet, when we had the dry spell later it turned into lumps of stone (almost). I thought I've got to try and do something about it, so I've dug straw/manure into most of the beds and sowed green manure over the top. Hoping this will improve things. My Onions were very hit and miss this year, my leeks were c**p last year, so here's hoping.
Quote from: GrannieAnnie on October 01, 2010, 17:00:57
Some years are just plain bad for some crops. Last year gobs of cucumbers; this year only 1!
I do know though- it is probable if you over fertilize tomatoes you'll get lots of healthy greens and few fruits.
Throwing fertilizer at plants can be a big mistake.
So if in doubt, try a soil analysis as a starter to see where you really are chemistry-wise.
Whatever you do, don't give up. The fact that you had lots of tomatoes is wonderful. How many people can say that??
it depends what you fert it with. If you throw on a high Nitrogen fert you will indeed get leaves like spinnakers and little fruit. On the other hand if you dose the tomatoes with phosphate at first you get good roots, then another dose with potassium as they flower you'll get lots of fruit. On the other hand, Spinach is all about leaves, so lots of nitrogen is name of the game.
All ferts are not equal..................
Quote from: lincsyokel2 on October 02, 2010, 14:19:43
Quote from: GrannieAnnie on October 01, 2010, 17:00:57
Some years are just plain bad for some crops. Last year gobs of cucumbers; this year only 1!
I do know though- it is probable if you over fertilize tomatoes you'll get lots of healthy greens and few fruits.
Throwing fertilizer at plants can be a big mistake.
So if in doubt, try a soil analysis as a starter to see where you really are chemistry-wise.
Whatever you do, don't give up. The fact that you had lots of tomatoes is wonderful. How many people can say that??
it depends what you fert it with. If you throw on a high Nitrogen fert you will indeed get leaves like spinnakers and little fruit. On the other hand if you dose the tomatoes with phosphate at first you get good roots, then another dose with potassium as they flower you'll get lots of fruit. On the other hand, Spinach is all about leaves, so lots of nitrogen is name of the game.
All ferts are not equal..................
that's a good point. You have to read the fertilizer label to see which is high in N or P or K then after the soil analysis you know which type to add. Also the acidity requirements and possibly the minerals needed.
Well, that is all certainly food for thought! I do rotate the crops, maybe that is why sometimes things do better than others... I do onions, followed by potatoes, followed by beans and squashes followed by tomatoes, peppers etc. brassicas tend to go where there is space!
Maybe that is wrong?
I do also add home-made compost, which is made almost solely from home scraps, some plant waste, coffee grounds and paper.
I could try trenching where the beans will go, I know that many people say that makes a difference (actually beans grow quite well too). I am quite distressed about the carrots and beetroot though...
I worry that it is because in general I cannot weed enough, I try to use weed suppression techniques to limit them, this year I found that the soil was so dry, I just had to water water water and no time left to really keep teh ground clear. Maybe that didn't help...
I guess I should just be grateful for what I got! But coming back with just a few tupperware containers of veg, for all the hours I put in, my husband i starting to look at me strangely... I will just hope for the best next year...
QuoteI do onions, followed by potatoes, followed by beans and squashes followed by tomatoes, peppers etc. brassicas tend to go where there is space!
Maybe that is wrong?
I do also add home-made compost, which is made almost solely from home scraps, some plant waste, coffee grounds and paper.
I found that the soil was so dry, I just had to water water water
It sounds you have a limited supply of compost and you are spreading it out too thinly so that everything gets some whereas if you put it all to one area you might be better off!
If it were me I would put all or most of it in my potato bed! Then next year I would follow these with brassicas, then the next year the rest.
If at any time you have a bit to spare put it the bed that has gone a couple of years without any!
At which stage do your carrots/beetroot fail? Do they 1. fail to germinate, do they 2. disappear after germination or 3. just produce very small useless carrots/beet?
My suggestions are. 1. germinate on a plate covered in damp kitchen roll covered with plastic bag sow after 5 days make sure you have fresh seed. 2. Slug pellets, 3. Fertilise, water and sow the seeds thinner.
Potatoes are the same famiy as tomatoes so I have a several year gap between also the beans produce nitrogen in the soil so I tend to put brassicas and squashes after them.
I kept mine well weeded in the spring but later on there is not much space left for the weeds.
I would try and find a source of more biomatter, if nothing else it provide mulching and keeps the moisture in the soil.
Do a PH test on several bits of the plot (GC's sell little kits).... POtatoes adn brassicas have non-overlapping "happy zones" for pH so in general the odl method on neutral soil was manure for the spuds (becasue it is supposed to be slighly acidic, and if you really have to go to town, sulphur as well, followed by brassica's getting limed, no manure, maybe some BFB/Growmore, then roots and onions, with the assorted mineral/chemical fertilizers of you choice, it's OK to give onions manure/compost if you have any (but not carrots/parsnips) followed by beans/peas getting as much compost in under them as you could give, then back to spuds again..... Of course this is an idyllic Ministry of Food thing from the war but there's more than a grain of sense in it.... I donm't grow masses of brassicas, I do grow a lot of onions and cucurbits forma major group on my plot so you do have to shuffle a bit, buit the important core really is spuds and brassicas, th potatoes should never follow brassicas, it's way easier to lime soil in for brassicas than it is to acidify it for spuds... if you're on chalk then you'll need a lot of manure, grow the spuds in that then dig it in is generally the old suggestion....rasied beds and council compost the modern one.....
Look to see if your council has a recycling compost scheme that allows you to obtain the stuff loose, borrow a mate with a trailer and see how much you can squeeze in... uing my minibus (admittedly with a skinny camper converion in it) and an 8x4 trailer I've yet to fit a ton in and that's about 3000 litres of compost, in half dumpy bags used as load-liners... I have to shovel it myself but at 28 quid a ton I'm not complaining.
Really there's no such thing as too much organic matter in vegetable garden soil, it just wants to be a couple of years old when the carrots see it, NPK balance gets easier the more humus there is anyway, but I find everything benefits fmor a bit of BFB (except tomatoes, just makes them grown big green plants) and chicken poo, that said I'm not above traawling the GC's and B+Q etc at this time of year buying any organic fertilizer they've got... the high potash stiuff goes to toms peppers and chillis with a bit for the onions in July, the rest just gets put near what seems to want it most....
chrisc
chrisc
:o :o :o :o
That is a lot of stuff to remember!! And I will never find time to be liming and composting and trenching and all that! :-[
TeeGee said something interesting though about compost. I have 100 sq m but I guess annually there is about a wheelbarrow full of compost that gets chucked around rather randomly. That is probably insufficient now I come to think of it.
I am having another 1 sq m of cow manure delivered - the tomatoes were on very well manured soil this year and they did very well. Maybe that will help. I will try to get more compost.
For the root veg - the beetroot seeds germinate OK, the carrots not very well, and I did sow them April/May when it was pretty warm. Then the carrots even after a few months are only as thick as a biro and about 10 cm long :( :( I just chuck them out. I grew them in soil where I had dug in sand and a few handfuls of all purpose fertilizer (organic quality). Obviously that is not appropriate.
I don't have access to comfrey or nettles really, there isnot enough room to be making concoctions anyway. I also don't have acces to any chicken manure or anything like that (but maybe i could source some out...).
QuoteI have 100 sq m but I guess annually there is about a wheelbarrow full of compost that gets chucked around rather randomly
Under those circumstances I'd suggest using a handfull or two of compost under each plant as it's positioned (or seeds as they're sown) rather than spreading it far and wide, that way you can get your limited resources "right to the root of the matter" ;D
A few years ago I managed a flower border like this. The original soil was very sandy and rather nutrient deficient, but with just the kitchen refuse from one person (me) composted down, I had an abundance of flowers right through the summer, after a couple of years, and the watering requirements reduced as well :)
For most of us chicken poo comes in a bucket of pellets from the GC..... anything else is just fowl play....
A cubic metre really isn't ernough manure for that area, especially if you are trying to play catch up with the soil..... If you're anywhere near Swindon I don't moind dropping some off through the winter.... otherwise, I guess, targetted compost is the best way to go.... see if you can get council recycling compost delivered.... generally there's a fixed charge for delivery but the compost costs almost nothing,,,, or find a guy with a trailer who's well into you, pretend that you'll put out in exchange for haulage, let him down gently. after the delivery.....
Quote from: chriscross1966 on October 06, 2010, 00:18:25
A cubic metre really isn't ernough manure for that area, especially if you are trying to play catch up with the soil..... If you're anywhere near Swindon I don't moind dropping some off through the winter.... otherwise, I guess, targetted compost is the best way to go.... see if you can get council recycling compost delivered.... generally there's a fixed charge for delivery but the compost costs almost nothing,,,, or find a guy with a trailer who's well into you, pretend that you'll put out in exchange for haulage, let him down gently. after the delivery.....
;D ;D ;D
Well as I am in Brittany in France, it is a wee bit far from Swindon...
I am surprised by what you say as 1 m 3 seemed like an awful lot of poo last year!! I think I will have to start raiding the pony club again and make a big stack of stable waste and let it rot down in a corner for later use.
We do have a trailer at our site for communal use but my car has no trailer hook...
I don't think our council does compost :-\ :-\ But if they do they must keep it for their own use as I have never heard of them supplying any.
Might look into the chicken poo idea, there are a few organic poultry farms near us, I wonder what they do with their manure??
I must add that visually speaking, the soil doesn't seem too poor, it is sandy loam, a nice brown colour, crumbly and full of living things. weeds grow fine! I stay off the soil as much as possible, I mulch mainly with straw and cover where possible so in general it is a dream to dig, soft and aerated. But as the crops do so poorly, perhaps what you see is not necessarily what you get...
QuoteI am in Brittany in France
... perhaps close enough to the coast to gather some seaweed ?
Quoteweeds grow fine!
... but that's why they're weeds, they can cope where more productive plants can't ;)
Quote from: antipodes on October 05, 2010, 16:34:09
For the root veg - the beetroot seeds germinate OK, the carrots not very well, and I did sow them April/May when it was pretty warm. Then the carrots even after a few months are only as thick as a biro and about 10 cm long :( :( I just chuck them out. I grew them in soil where I had dug in sand and a few handfuls of all purpose fertilizer (organic quality). Obviously that is not appropriate.
I wonder if it's the variety of carrots that you need to look at - I've never managed to grow huge carrots, but then I kind of like them on the small side anyway. I grow mine in a mix of compost and sand cos I'm on clay and haven't (as yet) got nice crumbly soil to sow into, so maybe look at the timing of sowing or the variety? Just a thought :-\
BTW - it took me 3 attempts this year to get decent beetroot - the 1st 2 lots struggeld with the lack of rain! But the 3rd lot have been a success - so in the end worth it :)
Hmm... I'm woindering about the straw mulch.... It will add organic content to the soil but it will use up n utrients (especially nitrogen) while it rots... also there are some issues with herbicide residues, not just the famous aminopyralid one.... If you can get pony-club manure then it's a great idea, if I had a chicken farm near me I'd certainly be investigating over the winter. it'll stink but if you get it in during the cold weather you won't offend too many people...
For a sort of idea of quantities, I've just taken on my second allotment this year 9and am moving out of the first cos it's a long way from where I live adn trying to get another one on the same site as my second)... the plot is supposedly 125 square metres about 6m wide, bit over 20 long, I've put a 1m3 bag of fairly fresh field horse manure in the first couple of metres when I was planting out som,e spare pepper plants. I'm expecting to use 8-10 more bags on there before the spring, along with probably a bag of coiuncil compost where the carrots and parsnips will go. If I can get more then I will cos it'll make growing spuds easier/bigger.. does depend a bit on the availability of another plot, it won't get quite so much if I have two cos the plants will be spaced out a bit mopre and I won't feel like I have to get everything as big as possible in a small space...
chrisc