After Jeannine raised the question I've made my brain hurt thinking about organic fertilisers. It occurs to me that there are two completely different things happening here.
What is an Organic Fertiliser. Is it:
1. A product manufactured in a process approved by one of the certifying organisation such as the Soil Association or Demeter for example.
or
2. A product that's licensed for use in an organic production system.
If we're growing organically it's the latter that we want, but it occurs to me that an organic fertiliser may only be the former. OK, OK, I know you're not actually an organic grower unless you're certified by an approved body, but there are plenty of us that for whatever reason try and follow the principles, but it occurs to me that only bunging on organic fertiliser isn't the same thing.
Thoughts?
The Soil Association has absurd requirements sometimes though to get organic certification, just based on personal experience of them.
My personal definition of organic is to not use something that doesnt occur naturally, or cant be made using natural processes.
Garden lime in my definition is organic, because all you use to make it is heat and water.
Superphosphate isnt, because it uses concentrated Nitric Acid, which although there natrual substances, its not a usual natural reaction that occurs commonly in nature.
I've just been given a sack of bat guano (from inside a church roof-space, courtesy of the builders doing the renovation)
so, holy organic fertiliser!!
Surely the correct interpretation of "Organic" is that it is derived entirely from a living, or formerly living, creature or substance, and is so derived without the interference of any artificially induced chemical reaction. The use of purely mechanical means (such as shredding, crushing, heating, or disolving in water) to produce it would not disqualify since those means are simply hastening an otherwise natural event.,
I work on the basis that anything that comes from a live or dead organism of any sort will do for my garden as long as it contains no chemical additives and is (where necessary) suitably composted
What about commercial tomato feed or poultry pellets? Do they qualify 'cos that's what I use.
Tricia
Quote from: Kepouros on July 30, 2010, 10:38:59
Surely the correct interpretation of "Organic" is that it is derived entirely from a living, or formerly living, creature or substance, and is so derived without the interference of any artificially induced chemical reaction. The use of purely mechanical means (such as shredding, crushing, heating, or disolving in water) to produce it would not disqualify since those means are simply hastening an otherwise natural event.,
I work on the basis that anything that comes from a live or dead organism of any sort will do for my garden as long as it contains no chemical additives and is (where necessary) suitably composted
Limestone is the compressed fossilised remains of the calcium rich shells of microscopic Cambrian marine creatures. Heating it and slaking it with water are similarly natural processes that would occur by volcanic activity.
Garden Lime is organic by your definition 8)
Quote from: tricia on July 30, 2010, 13:23:59
What about commercial tomato feed or poultry pellets? Do they qualify 'cos that's what I use.
Tricia
see this is where the looney world of the Soil Association bares itself in all its glory. Neither of those would be organic, according to them, but fresh chicken manure would be.
I wasn't inviting a general organic slag-fest, my question was: Does an fertiliser marketed as Organic mean either that it is produced in an organic system regulated by a certificating authority, or that it is approved for use in a certified organic system, or does it in fact not mean anything at all.
I suspect now that it means nothing at all. I didn't appreciate then, but I do now, that Organic only has a reserved meaning for agricultural products - products produced by agriculture, not for agriculture. Given that pretty much only commercial agriculturalist are actually registered organic and that it is increadibly unlikely that a commercial agriculturalist is going to buy a 5kg tub of pellitized chicken manure it strikes me that Organic fertilisers are marketed at the considerable number of us who aspire to organic principles rather than farm in a certified organic system.
Or another way of looking at it is : "use this brand of fertiliser and it makes you Organic", and I think there's a problem with that because 1. Organic is more about working within a system that minimizes inputs so the idea that you just use bonemeal instead of Growmore completely misses the point, and 2. Organic has no special meaning so as far as I can tell there is actually nothing stopping someone marketing Organic growmore.
I am not sure at all what organic means. I used to work in an office on an organic farm (nothing to do with farming.) I used to take walk during my lunch break and one day came across the organic testing. They took samples from various fields. I was interested in their activities. So talk to them about what they were doing. But all the samples were taken from the middle of the fields.
The next day the farmer was spraying all around the edges of the fields and arount the farm yards. A few days later it all died. Very organically I suppose. So much for organic.
If I use BFB I feel sure that the ingredients are highly unlikely to be organic, and the water from either the tap or wells is certainly not either.
Personally I think this orgainic thing is a bit of an expensive con. I use as few chemicals as possible but I am not officially organic.
Quote from: Digeroo on July 30, 2010, 18:02:22
I am not sure at all what organic means. I used to work in an office on an organic farm (nothing to do with farming.) I used to take walk during my lunch break and one day came across the organic testing. They took samples from various fields. I was interested in their activities. So talk to them about what they were doing. But all the samples were taken from the middle of the fields.
The next day the farmer was spraying all around the edges of the fields and arount the farm yards. A few days later it all died. Very organically I suppose. So much for organic.
If I use BFB I feel sure that the ingredients are highly unlikely to be organic, and the water from either the tap or wells is certainly not either.
Personally I think this orgainic thing is a bit of an expensive con. I use as few chemicals as possible but I am not officially organic.
its extremely expensive and difficult to get organic status as a farm, and takes about 3 years. And you can lose it all in an instant if the farm next door sprays with a chemical within 2 milies of your land.
Quote from: lincsyokel2 on July 30, 2010, 13:45:21
Limestone is the compressed fossilised remains of the calcium rich shells of microscopic Cambrian marine creatures. Heating it and slaking it with water are similarly natural processes that would occur by volcanic activity.
Garden Lime is organic by your definition 8)
I fully agree lincsyokel2, and I had this in mind when I referred to heating, crushing and dissolving in water. I didn`t mention it specifically because I was not intending to post an exhaustive list.
tricia`s poultry pellets, of course, contain several chemical additives as well as the natural product.
Your comment as to the loony world of the Soil Association can not be better illustrated than by their acceptance , as a matter of convenience, of bordeau mixture as a preventative of potato and tomato blight. A more inorganic mixture of metallic salts it is difficult to imagine, but it has to be accepted as `Organic` because there is no truly organic alternative, and there would otherwise be no organic potatoes grown on this country
I think it is different things to different people.
If something is certified organic by an association and on their list ,OMRI eg, then everyone accepts that. Getting accepted on the list is expensive.
If another product, identical in every way that has not been"listed" is still organic but doesn't carry the precious logo so folks are not sure. The OMRI listed ones tend to be very popular for that reason.
I can buy a listed organic all purpose fertiliser, I can buy an unlisted organic fertiliser, or I can make my own, all are are organic but how would I prove it if I had to.
To be a certified organic farm, everything you use from seeds to supplements has to be approved, many places garden organically but are not certified, many of the places we all buy seeds from are the same. I guess in the end it comes down to trust.
I try to be as organic as I can, The lottie I am on insists we are anyway but I have no idea how they police it. I can't use toxic slug pellets so I buy the safe ones which are acceptable, I don't know if they are organic!
I have decided I am going to do just what I have always done.
Fertiliser I might make myself like I always used to..if I can still get the ingredients (4 parts Canola seed meal,1/2 part kelp meal and 1 part rock phosphate, (plus 1 part lime if needed.)
Oh and I now find I am allowed to use Dolomite Lime or agricultural lime but not slaked lime.
If I don't make it, I shall use Galia Green All purpose 4-4-4 It is Organic, but doesn't have the fancy logo. I like it because it is simple, just chuck a handful in a planting hole. Boost with liquid seaweed if needed, and lime parts of the garden annually as I rotate.
I think we can only do the best we can
Goodness me years ago I remember Paraquat in my Dad's plant pantry, then I used Growmore, then Miracle Gro, slug pellets that would kill anything that ate it and here I am worrying about wether kelp meal is from an organic beach or something equally daft. I should be more worried about keeping my Nematodes in my Fridge.
We have come along way from paraquat.. I think it just needs to have the mystery taken out of it and not be used as a means to make basic things expensive.
Need to add, to me organic means it comes from a natural occuring substance , animal, vegetable or mineral,that is grown,collected or processed etc without the addition of man made chemicals ... and don't anybody say it needs a truck using petrol to deliver .
XX Jeannine
I try and grow naturally, that is to say i try and avoid unnatural chemicals, bearing in mind i dont consider lime unnatural, nor fish,blood and bone, or bonemeal, or chicken manure. I dont think id use Superphosphate or Sulphate of Ammonia.