Do you get Community Payback (http://www.communitypayback.com/) on your site?
Since Newbury Town Council changed their allotment rules to prevent the tenants from maintaining the hedge and ditch we've had Community Payback on site to do this work. The Council never asked us whether we were comfortable with this, and they don't tell us when they're about.
They were on site this week and they trampled the back of my plot. Had I been on site I would have told them to get off, but I find the whole situation very unsettling as I'm not over-happy at the thought of telling a bunch of potentially dangerous criminals to clear off. When I complained my council were "outraged at my libellous accusation", so you can see they're not particuarly sensitive to the issues.
Obviously the hedge and ditch need doing, but before the ban I used to do it - I enjoy doing it. I've been to two council meetings asking the council specifically to allow the allotment society to do the work, but they dismiss it out of hand.
What do you reckon? Is Community Payback appropriate on site?
I don't see why not. A good friend of mine is a chaplain at Winson Green, and confirms everything I've heard, that the great majority of those in prison have learning disabilities or mental health problems, and need help which they won't get where they are. Community Payback sounds more positive, and I think it should be encouraged.
We have had people on community service working on our site in the past with no problems. When they are on site there is always one committee member around to keep them right on jobs to do and where to go. We get the odd lazy one but most do like it. Never had the problems you mention though. We also give them brews through the day to keep them going.
You will have to read the tenancy agreement .
When you rent a property, you have a legal right to free and unimpeded use, and the landlord, or his agents, have no right to access the rented property without your permission, and have to give you notice to enter it, and they can only do that to inspect it and do essential maintenance.
Its been shown the same applies to parking places that come with rented flats - in some cases clampers and landlords have been jointly sued because the clamper clamped someone parked in there own parking place, which was ruled illegal entry to the rented property, and damages were recovered.
SO i am guessing you could argue that you need notice before they can enter your rented land, and you are entitled to damages if they trample anything. Furthermore, you can also argue that by allowing convicted burglars on the site, the council are exposing you to potential loss, as they are indicating the the thieves possible places to rob, such as your allotment shed, and they are therefore failing in there duty of care to protect your property. If someone gets there shed robbed, and you can show that person was on the site previously as Community Payback, then I think you have them by the proverbials.
Further legal advice is needed to confirm this.
QuoteFurthermore, you can also argue that by allowing convicted burglars on the site,
nothing like a bit of prejudice to spoil a thread, is there??
the folk on community payback ain't necessarily convicted burglars, they could just as easily be folk who didn't pay a parking fine, or neglected to get a tele licence!!
our association have them do site clearance etc for us, it's a superb scheme for help on allotments
Quote from: tonybloke on March 27, 2010, 21:03:01
QuoteFurthermore, you can also argue that by allowing convicted burglars on the site,
nothing like a bit of prejudice to spoil a thread, is there??
the folk on community payback ain't necessarily convicted burglars, they could just as easily be folk who didn't pay a parking fine, or neglected to get a tele licence!!
our association have them do site clearance etc for us, it's a superb scheme for help on allotments
SO you can g';tee no person ever convicted of theft will ever do Community Payback? Thats a pretty bold assertion to make, hope you have the evidence to back it up, since im more likely to be right than you on this, just purely on statistical grounds. The average reoffending rate for burglars is 70%, according to Home Office statistics.
Tony, I appreciate your point, especially as it's backed up with good experience of the scheme, but I can't find any details of the offender screening that means the crims are definitely not dangerous, hence a legitimate concern that they are potentially dangerous.
lincsyokel2, I complained for the reasons you gave. I wasn't asked for permission so they we trespassing, and I've charged the council £2.50 for my time to repair the damage and I'll deduct it from my bill. They didn't like that.
I am the person in our association who liases with the probation service for the community payback scheme on our allotments. we can (and do) get the probation service organiser to screen the workers.
there ain't that many violent burglars who get community service, anyway!! they are mostly 'minor offences', like breaching a previous order, or even minor motoring offences!!, non-payment of fines, parking tickets, other similar offences.
N.I.M.B.Y.S ;)
Quote from: STEVEB on March 27, 2010, 21:44:21
N.I.M.B.Y.S ;)
no, N.I.A.B.Y.
Not In Anyones Back yard.
I would have loved to have community payback people to cut the hedge for me- with correct supervision. The only time I've seen them on our plots all they did was cut back brambles- not even dig them out, so they all grew back again. ::)
A lot of otherwise nice people get caught out doing something wrong. I used to work for a charity who had teams doing work. The type of work that was involved depended on the type of person allocated. Anyone at all dubious was put into groups working on footpaths miles from anywhere. Though these were also popular with people who did not want to be seen doing community service.
Someone I know got a community order for having a fight in a pub. He did not start it but did join in. Most of the time a very reasonable guy.
Another organisation had footballers who had been caught driving under the influence teaching football to difficult youngsters.
So all you speeders, drinkers, etc etc are you all so innocent you never do anything wrong?
Quote from: Robert_Brenchley on March 27, 2010, 20:36:19
I don't see why not. A good friend of mine is a chaplain at Winson Green, and confirms everything I've heard, that the great majority of those in prison have learning disabilities or mental health problems, and need help which they won't get where they are. Community Payback sounds more positive, and I think it should be encouraged.
Totally and utterly agree, I think you all would be horrified by how easy it is for vulnerable people to get led into situations where they get a conviction. There are shedloads of folk who I would happily have in my own garden who have a conviction. And I am VERY VERY cautious.
edited to add: In saying tht, bad your plot trampled Unwashed...whoever was supervising should have made sure folk knew what to do/not to do
Quote from: caroline7758 on March 28, 2010, 10:58:26
I would have loved to have community payback people to cut the hedge for me- with correct supervision. The only time I've seen them on our plots all they did was cut back brambles- not even dig them out, so they all grew back again. ::)
that was down to whoever organised the work, not sorting it out properly!! when I arrange the work for the community payback to do, I arranged a 'work plan', or schedule of work to be done on each site. ;)
Quote from: tonybloke on March 28, 2010, 13:18:55
Quote from: caroline7758 on March 28, 2010, 10:58:26
I would have loved to have community payback people to cut the hedge for me- with correct supervision. The only time I've seen them on our plots all they did was cut back brambles- not even dig them out, so they all grew back again. ::)
that was down to whoever organised the work, not sorting it out properly!! when I arrange the work for the community payback to do, I arranged a 'work plan', or schedule of work to be done on each site. ;)
That's what I meant by "with correct supervision".
Everyone in live deserves a second chance apart from the likes of shits like 'Huntly', just give the lads a chance, :)
Quote from: lincsyokel2 on March 27, 2010, 20:43:28
the landlord, or his agents, have no right to access the rented property without your permission
This is, of course, complete nonsense. As a landlord I just have to give reasonable notice. If it's for routine maintenance, this is normally taken to be 24 hours but I just need to tell them & it can be less. I don't need to ask their permission. If there's a flood or fire, I have to shout "I'm coming in" before entering. I once rescued a drunk tenant from a fire that he had started in a poperty we own. Are you saying I should have asked him for permission first?! He had changed the locks so I charged him for a new door too.
And good to see so many people on here saying they deserve a second chance (with supervision) - quite right!
That depends on your lease, Ollie. Ours states quite clearly that - provided we keep to the terms of our lease - our landlords, the local Church Charity, have no rights whatever to enter the site. The chairman of the Trustees does an annual "walk-about", so that he can report back to them. I have to invite him: he can't just turn up.
Other people's leases might very well be worded differently, of course.
Wish someone on community payback would help us with our hedge cutting...it really is a pain every year.! would happily keep them in bacon butties and tea!!
Maybe we arent considered for this type of thing because we only pay a peppercorn rent??
You can't change the law with a contract, even if both parties want to. You certainly can't do away with a statutory right! Not sure about your case, but I have seen many tenancy agreements that have nonsense in them - some from large companies.
This sight: http://www.simplyrent.co.uk/tntfaq.htm/#Q10 says the same as I have been told by our solicitors.
"Landlords have a statutory right of entry to the property for inspection and repairs under the Rent Act 1977 and the Housing Act 1988. The Landlord also has a right of entry under the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 if the Landlord is obliged by Section 11 of that Act to carry out essential repairs. The Landlord's right to make reasonable visits to check the condition of the property is also normally included in the agreement with the Tenant.
The Landlord should always take care not to interfere with the Tenant's right to peaceably occupy the premises without interference, and should give notice of his/her intention to enter the property. Normally the Landlord should give you at least 24 hours notice, and only call at a reasonable time during the day or evening."
Ah, that's why! Our lease assigns all the "essential repairs" to us - our landlord doesn't need to enter.
Do you insure the building too?
Quote from: Fork on March 28, 2010, 16:06:09
Wish someone on community payback would help us with our hedge cutting...it really is a pain every year.! would happily keep them in bacon butties and tea!!
Maybe we arent considered for this type of thing because we only pay a peppercorn rent??
you need to contact your local probation service office. you will need to fill in loads of paperwork, and get on the waiting list. we have to provide refreshments (tea coffee sugar milk and we purchased a large thermos flask for them), and a toilet for the workers.(we rent in a porta-loo)
;)
Quote from: OllieC on March 28, 2010, 15:47:09
Quote from: lincsyokel2 on March 27, 2010, 20:43:28
the landlord, or his agents, have no right to access the rented property without your permission
This is, of course, complete nonsense. As a landlord I just have to give reasonable notice. If it's for routine maintenance, this is normally taken to be 24 hours but I just need to tell them & it can be less. I don't need to ask their permission. If there's a flood or fire, I have to shout "I'm coming in" before entering. I once rescued a drunk tenant from a fire that he had started in a poperty we own. Are you saying I should have asked him for permission first?! He had changed the locks so I charged him for a new door too.
And good to see so many people on here saying they deserve a second chance (with supervision) - quite right!
I suggest you a) go and read the site below before one of your tenants sues the balls off you and b) you get another solicitor, one thats knows something about housing law.
http://www.thesite.org/homelawandmoney/home/tenancyrights/yourrightsasatenant
yep, first thing it says is 'reasonable notice is required' it doesn't say they can't turn up at all!!! did you actually read the site yourself?
Quote from: OllieC on March 28, 2010, 16:14:03
You can't change the law with a contract, even if both parties want to. You certainly can't do away with a statutory right! Not sure about your case, but I have seen many tenancy agreements that have nonsense in them - some from large companies.
This sight: http://www.simplyrent.co.uk/tntfaq.htm/#Q10 says the same as I have been told by our solicitors.
"Landlords have a statutory right of entry to the property for inspection and repairs under the Rent Act 1977 and the Housing Act 1988. The Landlord also has a right of entry under the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 if the Landlord is obliged by Section 11 of that Act to carry out essential repairs. The Landlord's right to make reasonable visits to check the condition of the property is also normally included in the agreement with the Tenant.
The Landlord should always take care not to interfere with the Tenant's right to peaceably occupy the premises without interference, and should give notice of his/her intention to enter the property. Normally the Landlord should give you at least 24 hours notice, and only call at a reasonable time during the day or evening."
This is true, but the landlord CANNOT turn up randomly and demand entry, CANNOT simply turn up when you are out and enter and HAS to give you ONE MONTHS notice of his intentions to enter to perform inspections and repairs. In this case, these people walked onto the guys plot with no formal notification, and caused damage in the process. Legally, they havent a leg to stand on, especially in the light of the case i mentioned, where a clamper and his landlord have been sued for going onto a rented private parking place and illegally clamping a vehicle.
To move back to the original question. Yes, we have had Community Payback teams on our site. Initially it did feel a bit odd - in that they were there to be 'punished', which didn't sit at all well with me.
By and large all of the teams have worked hard and done a good job. In our area, the hardest part of the organising is getting the probation service bod to turn to do a site inspection. Also the teams are not allowed to use any mechanical equipment and one team leader wouldn't let them work in the rain (light shower)
We are slowly turning our site around and without the CPB teams doing a lot of the really heavy work, I doubt we would have made as much progress as we have.
Go on, everyone deserves a second chance :D
Quote from: lincsyokel2 on March 28, 2010, 19:23:03
This is true, but the landlord CANNOT turn up randomly and demand entry, CANNOT simply turn up when you are out and enter and HAS to give you ONE MONTHS notice of his intentions to enter to perform inspections and repairs. .
so, if you get a leak in the water supply, you expect a month's notice before repairs? get real, chap!!
We're not talking aboput housing here. The law's likely to be somewhat different, though notice should still be required, and I'd expect the landlord or their agent to be required to take due care. That doesn't seem to have happened here.
Quote from: Robert_Brenchley on March 28, 2010, 19:35:13
We're not talking aboput housing here. The law's likely to be somewhat different,
Not according to the Appeal Court. Tenants rights apply to a rented car parking space as equally as to the flat to which it was attached, so the principle that any rented space has tenants rights has now been established. You need to read more and keep up with the changes and rulings of the Appeal Court.
@lincsyokel2 - we have around 50 occupied flats and have done for around 20 years, I'm pretty good on the basic legalities thanks! The lawyers that we use drew up the 6 month AST that is now the standard template for all members of the NFRL so I'm fairly certain they're quite knowledgeable. Tenants have many rights, but there are also a few myths about the landlord's rights. To me, you should rarely need to get into the legalities as it wastes everyone's time and money - much easier just to be reasonable. Anyway, it's normally cheaper for us to pay someone to leave than to evict them (you rarely want a good paying tenant to leave!).
Oh, and nobody can sue the balls off me. ;)
This thread has become a bit of muddle between community payback and tenant rights.
QuoteMaybe we arent considered for this type of thing because we only pay a peppercorn rent??
You can approach the community paypack team with a proposal of a scheme of work that needs doing, if it fits their criterion and if they have suitable teams they will do the work.
You are not entitled to enter a property as a landlord even if they are wrecking the place.
lincsyokel2, I have removed your last post (and that of tonybloke) to moderation. Please DO NOT use foul language whilst debating with other members and please DO NOT make personal attacks on other members.
Also (to all) please try to stay on topic.
Thanks.
I've read this thread in utter amazement we use probationers on our community site and yes maybe some of them have done things you may not like ,but if you talk with the supervisor who HAS to be with them ,I personally know ours, he has the choice of people to use on each project,if your grievances about some damage is right get him to put it right next time, generally it is a learning curve as how they work on your projects,with ours they like it ,its generally cleanish work, decent environment and most will put a few syllables together,some are lazy ,but some will work hard ??? its all about fair communication
a couple of 'before & after' photo's of some of the work that 'community payback' have been working on, on one of our associations sites.[attachment=1][attachment=2][attachment=3][attachment=4]
;D ;D ;D