I'll be growing a bunch of not very common/heritage beans this year and I'd like to be able to save seeds from them.....but I'd like to keep them from too much crossing out...... My list is:
Climbers:
Borlotti
Butter bean "Lima"
Butter bean "Giganda"
Cherokee Trail of Tears
O'Driscoll's
Cobra (not for saving but it will be on one of the plots)
Some unnamed runner beans from my sister in law.
Pea-bean
Marvel of Venice
Bird Egg
Brown Dutch
Dwarfs:
Soldier
Yin-yang (kidney)
Ernie's Big-eye
3 sorts of soy beans (Elena, Ustie and one other that might be one of them )
What can safely sit next to each other with minimal crossing and what needs some distance? I know that some will be P.vulgaris and some won't (for instance the butter beans should only have a problem with each other so I can seperate them on the plots easily enough) but are there any interspecies hybrid possibilities I want to avoidany problems form that point....
chrisc
Common bean as you say shouldn't have any problems. The HSL say that some crossing can occur, but it should be possible to rogue out any such crosses. I don't know how common they are.
Butter bean is Phaseolus lunatus, and I have no idea whether it cross-pollinates or not. Inter-specific hybrids usually occur in genera where the species aren't fully differentiated (I wonder about the validity of the very idea 'species' in some cases!), and this doesn't seem to be such an example, so I wouldn't worry about it. I don't know what the gigantes bean is, it looks like a big butter bean, but it could be another species altogether for all I know.
I think that crossing depends on the variety. Most seem ok but for me Madeira Maroon produced all sorts of results. Very few of the results were the same colour as the mother beans. They started off monotonic and ended up very spotty.
White runners are difficult to spot rogues, white is white. If they are spotty then it is much easier to see that some are noticably different. Actually I quite like the rogues they can produce some interesting results.
What type of bean is Madeira Maroon?
My experience with climbing french beans is that they cross about a hundred times more in really bad years.
If you grow interesting varieties then you end up with very interesting crosses - but I've got enough now and I'd like a decent growing season please...
QuoteWhat type of bean is Madeira Maroon?
I thought that Madeira Maroon was a Climbing French. It has a very attractive dark red seed.
I like the big wide beans like you get in supermarkets such as Hunter but still have not found one that grows well for me. So I am trying out lots of beans to find ones that suit. I have fallen for Mrs Lewis's Purple podded. But daughter not keen on this one.
QuoteMy experience with climbing french beans is that they cross about a hundred times more in really bad years.
Do you think that this is due to lack of other flowers for the bees. I watched my French beans last year and saw no interest in them from the bees. Does anyone think that growing French next to Runners might be beneficial?
I have hives right on my plot, and I've never seen a bee on the beans yet. Something was evidently going on, and perhaps we need to watch for any correlation between bad summers and crossing.
Quote from: Digeroo on March 26, 2010, 07:01:24
Does anyone think that growing French next to Runners might be beneficial?
I tried this last year and neither seemed to enjoy the experience! Very poor crop from both. But, the start of summer was wet then mid / late summer was very dry (for us here), so I wonder how much one affected the other. I'm still trying to decide what to grow where at the moment!
Quote from: 1066 on March 26, 2010, 09:55:02
Quote from: Digeroo on March 26, 2010, 07:01:24
Does anyone think that growing French next to Runners might be beneficial?
I tried this last year and neither seemed to enjoy the experience! Very poor crop from both. But, the start of summer was wet then mid / late summer was very dry (for us here), so I wonder how much one affected the other. I'm still trying to decide what to grow where at the moment!
Now by doing exactly this last year...on a well manured bean trench..ten in a row of twenty of two types, I had a brilliant crop.....saved some seeds...which will be planted this year...If I remember to do so will report back at end of season...have they cross pollinated or not....well we'll see soon enough....
But certainly had a good crop and plenty of bee's last season...
have a good season one and all ;)
I've done it successfully. Last year was awful, I got a small bag of pea bean seeds and nothing else to show for my efforts.
Chris,
I have grown Cherokee Trail of Tears and Cobra together and saved the Cherokee with no problem for a couple of years now.
T.
grow beans on adjacent wigwams, same as peas, and have had no problems. Doen't mean problems never happen though! I don't grow runners either. Maybe I should try them again, they'd probably go down better if I picked them at French bean size.
Quote from: Tulipa on March 26, 2010, 11:14:45
Chris,
I have grown Cherokee Trail of Tears and Cobra together and saved the Cherokee with no problem for a couple of years now.
T.
That's pretty useful to know.... but how would you tell?.... they're both black beans about the smae size, is there sa signnificant difference in taste?....
THat said from folks comments re: bees i think I'm OK with the vulgaris, I'm only growing one coccinea and the two lunatus I can sepearte on differnt plots
chrisc
Quote from: Digeroo on March 26, 2010, 07:01:24
QuoteMy experience with climbing french beans is that they cross about a hundred times more in really bad years.
Do you think that this is due to lack of other flowers for the bees. I watched my French beans last year and saw no interest in them from the bees. Does anyone think that growing French next to Runners might be beneficial?
I don't think any year is bad enough to mean there's a shortage of flowers - I think flowers are much more diverse than veg. So just as some veg always does extra well in years when everything else fails - it goes double for flowers.
I think it is more the usual thing - sexual reproduction is the backup emergency strategy for hundreds of species (both animal and vegetable) that normally rely on some kind of self-replication.
Taking it even wider - I've been told that pigs won't breed if you keep them too comfy - apparently an uninsulated arch of corrugated iron is the happy medium in terms of winter shelter!
It may smack of superstition but I've also been guilty of taking a fork (and some threatening language) to the roots of a plum tree that refused to fruit. It worked, but then the pictures of mice in my house also succeed in keeping the elephants out...
QuoteI have grown Cherokee Trail of Tears and Cobra together and saved the Cherokee with no problem for a couple of years now
I also have found cherokee trail of tears throws up no rogues. All the resultant beans seem to be very similar. Odriscoll stays true, but Major Cook produces higher numbers of rogues while lazy housewife seems to be very variable.
I find that if there are runners nearby the bees are not interested in the french.
QuoteMy experience with climbing french beans is that they cross about a hundred times more in really bad years.
I do find this interesting. Perhaps if it is struggling the plant somehow triggers a need for some generic diversity. Somehow the genetics are perhaps able to respond to the environment.
It is for this type of reason that I feel that it is important to grow the heritage varieties. Also in the past people saved much more of their own seeds and hence developed their own varieties that did well for them. We are now reliant on the seed companies for both seeds and new varieties.
I have over the years of growing vegetable had three remarkable plants. One runner bean, one courgette and one brocolli. I feel that I was brainwashed into not keeping the seeds from the first two and thereby lost a once in ten year opportunity.
In fact my Cherokee threw up some F1 from the packet from Realseeds and has also crossed in the year I grew it, I think with the dwarf borlottis next to it - I'm going to sow them and see what occurs. I wouldn't be surprised if it crosses quite a lot considering my neighbour's version which is self-saved from friends looks nothing like mine and the ones on google are all very variable too.
Ditto, the regretting not saving exceptional plants - one of last year's purple sprouting was phenominal and I had half a plan to save seeds but never got around to it.
I've just been given this advice on butter beans.
To quote Suzanne Ashworth , 'Seed to Seed' - 'These are in-breeders'.... but honey bees love the flowers, 'working them intensely when they first open'. 'Different varieties of limas must be isolated by at least one mile to ensure purity'.
Quote from: Robert_Brenchley on March 29, 2010, 10:08:55
I've just been given this advice on butter beans.
To quote Suzanne Ashworth , 'Seed to Seed' - 'These are in-breeders'.... but honey bees love the flowers, 'working them intensely when they first open'. 'Different varieties of limas must be isolated by at least one mile to ensure purity'.
Well mine will have 27.... the standard ones will be on my plot in Oxford, the gigande's will be in a polytunnel in Swindon...
chrisc