am planning on growing mini pop this year (for the weee one )as well as the usual swift and supersweet variety's . as i understand it i cant plant the minipop with the others so how far away would you plant it ,i have a plot of about thirty feet would oppsite ends be sufficient or will i be wasting my time ,
thankfull of any advise ,,,, n8r ..... ;D ;)
I've planted two varieties ten yards apart and had no problems. If you stagger the planting dates that'll make doubly sure.
If partial cross-fertilisation happens (only possible if flowering at the same time) it just means that some of the kernels on the cobs will not be true to type. This is only a major problem if you want to save seed.
Each one of the tassels that hang out of the flower head is connected to an embryonic kernel, and each must be individually pollenated for the kernel to form. Sometimes you will see a cob with gaps on it. This is where there has been incomplete pollination of the flower head. If the odd kernel is pollinated by a different variety it just means that kernel will be a slightly different size/colour etc. which would not bother me.
I don't totally agree, if you get cross pollination on different families of corns it will make the corn starchy too. Depending on the types you are growing you can isolate them by date ot by distance,,if in fact you need to isolate,if you grow two different corns of the same family you won't have any trouble even if they cross . If you tell me the types you are definitely growing I can tell you if they will be a problem together. Supersweets are the ones that cause the trouble as they will cross with all the others,sugar enhanced types and regular hybrids do not cause a problem. Ornamental and popcorn types can cross too so are best isolated
The best rule of thumb is
Hybrid sweets isolate from supersweets but not sugar enhanced
Sugar Enhanced isolate from supersweets but not hybrid sweets
Supersweets isolate from all others unless the maturity days are 15 or more .
Open pollinated isolate from supersweets but not sugar enhanced or hybrid sweets
I have added Ornamentals or Popcorn types should be isolated from all others unless maturity dates are 15 days or more.
You can isolate by distance too but in a lottie situation is is difficult as it quite a long way.
You need to be sure which ones you are planting,many folks think anything hybrid is a supersweet and it is confusing, you mentioned the usual supersweet varieties, as many of the UK companies do not state on the packet it makes it worse. I found very few people in England grow these,mostly they grow the sugar enhanced types, it is easy to know ..if you look at the seed,very shrunk and wrinkled then it is a supersweet, if just a dry kernel it is one of the other types.
XX Jeannine
Jeannine, I bow to your superior knowledge 8)
Ian.. not so.. I did agree mostly .
I meant to mention that swift is a sugar enhanced type (se)
Mini pop is regular hybrid or normal sugar variety (su)
These two are OK together... but if you add a supersweet (sh2) you will have trouble.
If you tell me the name I can help you.I don't know all th varieties but know many as I have maintained a list for years.
XX Jeannine
I've got minipop, swift & lark. The latter isn't supposed to need isolating. What do you think Jeannine please?
Interesting! Swift and Lark are usually described as Tender sweets in UK catalogues. T&M catalogue says that you do not need to separate Swift and Lark from other varieties of sweetcorn, but does not go into details of why.
I did ask the same question of Tozer's seeds as they have bred some of the modern sweetcorn varieties, and act as agents for some of the USA sweetcorn breeders, but they did not reply.
I saw lark in Grow Your Own, that's why I bought it.
Tendersweet or se+ is an extra enhanced Sugar Enhanced se corn so it is classed as a se by sellers, some do go further and call it a Tendersweet..this is often where the confusion to growers starts.. they often think that because it is called a Tendersweet it must be a supersweet .. but it is closer to the se, therefore it a garden situation it should not need isolation although I do know one seller who advertises tendersweets and says for BEST results keep it isolated from all other corn.The same seller stresses that you MUST isolate the supersweets . Personally I avoid them and save myself the headache.
Your Swift and Lark should fall into the above group and I would say no to isolating.
There is also a Triplesweet type and a Tablesweet type.
To confuse further there are also synergistic corns sy which contain kernels of Se x Sh2 on the same cob and these too are OK with the se..they have 25% sh2 and 75% se kernels, they also tolerate cold better than the sh2 types.
There is further still an improved supersweet sh2 sl which would have to be isolated from everything else.
Then come all the bi colours which fall into any of the categories above in their own right,,same with the white corns.
But to keep it simple corn generally falls into three classes by most breeders and sellers.1. hybrid regular sweet 2. sugar enhanced(includes Tendersweet) 3 Supersweets. 1&2 can share a plot but keep supersweets out unless separated by 15 days maturity..they can of course be mixed with each other.
I perhaps should also mention what should be called a 4th group , which includes the op open pollinated corns which a few folks still plant, the ornamental corns and the popcorns, these are USUALLY isolated from the others to PRESERVE THE PURITY OF THE SEEDS AND COLOURS . They are not included in the top 3 groups. There is even a bi color open pollinated now that you can save seeds from.All of this group should definitely be isolated from the Supersweets su.
Corn is going quite crazy right now and it changes all the time ,I find it very difficult to keep up.
Hope this helps a bit more,
XX Jeannine
thinking on growing just swift and the mini pop this year will they ok together its all a bit over my head lol ??? n8r ... ???
Yes
XX Jeannine
Thanks Jeannine, for that explanation of the different types of sweetcorn.
What type is Kelvedon Glory? I've been looking on the net, and can't find anything.
Robert it is an all yellow, early ,hybrid, normal sugary su category 1
XX Jeannine
Thanks for the explanation. It is proving a bit of a challenge to get my head around.
I got several packets of F1 varieties I got cheaply so will have to work out which type I have got, and how far I can manage to isolate them.
Thanks. I can get a large pack from King's, so it looks like one to go for.
I may have written it a bit technical but this may make it easier and a bit more info too...basically ALL HYBRID seeds falls into one of three groups. each group has a code, this is shown before or after the name of the corn in catalogues although I do find the UK sellers are a bit shoddy about this.I can usually help if you have a name and you don't know the group or code.
su = Normal Sugary types often described in catalogues as Hybrid sweet,they convert to starch fairly quickly after picking.Old fashioned corn flavour,some sweetness,short shelf life
se and se+ = Sugar Enhanced contains a gene which modifies the su gene,this increases tenderness and sweetness,conversion to starch is slower so they have quite good shelf life.
sh2 = Supersweets contain even more of the gene which makes them very sweet and very tender, however this does make them need isolating from other corns , The seeds are shrunken and they need more warmth germinate. They have the best shelf life of all.
OP. Open pollinated is the old fashioned corn which are NOT HYBRIDS, they come true to seed each year,they tend to be a bit chewy , these need to be eaten as soon as picked.
Most popcorn falls into this OP group, but there are a few popcorns which have been hybridised.Ornamental and dry field corns are OP corns, these are grown like Old fashioned corn but are left to dry even through frosts and are dried completely , used for decoration, flour and popping, some of these corns come in vibrant colours.
XX Jeannine
Robert, bear in mind it has a short shelf life once picked XX Jeanninr
Wow Jeanine, thanks ;D ;) xxx
thanks to all (especially Jeannine) ;) thats cleared it for me ...n8r...
Wow Jeannine what awesome sweetcorn knowledge you have.
I have bought earlibird which is a supersweet ....I gather this is not the best choice for an allotment situation. :(
I may choose another variety and try to grow this in my back garden instead.
It does need isolation.. if your neighbours are not growing corn you will be OK, if they are and you can seperate by 25 feet it will be OK, or if yoiu can find out what they are growing and get the maturity dates, a difference of 10 days will keep you safe.
My neighbour on our lotties and I always grew diffent types, so he planted at one end of his lottie and I planted at the other, we were always OK. It was really funny actually because he was an excellent gardener with a plot to dream of, never a weed, everything in perfect rows.When I first got the lottie I approached him about corn and he said he wasn't going to grow it anymore as it was awful, we discussed the other person who had had my lottie, would you believe he too always complained about his corn..tactfully I explained about the differences, he reluctantly agreed to give it abother go, I told him to buy anything he fancied then tell me, he got an se type so I got a supersweet, wo both planted at extreme ends of our plots..his corn was lovely and so was mine..he was very gracious and was very grateful for his new knowledge, in fact he brought it up at a lottie meeting so other folks could help each oher..it was funny the next year to see the position of the corn on the lotties LOl
If you buy another one, you could grow this one as a mini corn which would'nt interfere with anything.
XX Jeannine
Thanks,
the nearest would be swift about 15 feet away.
where would I find the info on maturity dates please Jeannine?
Tell me the varieties and I can probably tell you. Usually it says on the packet on in the seed catalogue but UK stockists don't seem to do this as much.I would be quoting US dates bit it wouldn't matter as it is relative anyway. By the way, Swift is also a supersweet so you can both plant as they don't need to be isolated from each other,you are safe!! XX Jeannine
Hi Jeannine, you've opened up the floodgates now ;D
I'm hoping to grow Applause F1 on one half plot and Ambrosia (but from saved seed - my favourite) on the other half plot, bearing in mind the plots are only divided by an 8 foot path.
You're diagnosis is most welcome ???
Ninny x
Quote from: Jeannine on April 20, 2010, 20:14:05
Tell me the varieties and I can probably tell you. Usually it says on the packet on in the seed catalogue but UK stockists don't seem to do this as much.I would be quoting US dates bit it wouldn't matter as it is relative anyway. By the way, Swift is also a supersweet so you can both plant as they don't need to be isolated from each other,you are safe!! XX Jeannine
Yeah! :) :) :)
Me too please Jeannine, I was going to grow Mirai Bicolour M302 and Extra Tender and Sweet, neither packet says to grow separately, but thought I'd ask the oracle ;D I'm also planning on Clay Pot. I'm hoping you will make it all sound simple, the packets are not helpful ;D
Hi Jayb..Extra Tender and Sweet is a supersweet and I believe so is Mirai Biclolour M302, the reason I say believe is because there is a series os Mirai corns and they are all supersweets. could look into it with my uni connection if you need to be more sure, but I am pretty certain.
Re Clay Pot,well you have me there, off the top of my head I have never heard of it. I thought it was a gardening method for growing corn!!I know Hopi was popular for growing this way. I will send on an e maill and see if I can find out for you though. You have me curious.
XX Jeannine
Thanks, knowing they are both supersweets is a great help. Sorry I should have added this http://store.irishseedsavers.ie/products/family/4/organic-seed/category/68/grains-including-linseed/item/311/clay-pot-corn/
I haven't been able to find anything else, I'll sow the Claypot separately, I'm thinking they will be slower to mature too?
Ninny, sorry I missed you at first..
Applause is as Hybrid synergistic corn, it has 25% supersweet kernels and 75% sugar enhanced kernels so it gives the extra sweetness of a sugar enhanced. Personally now I would definatley treat them as a supersweet and isolate, a few years ago I would have said the opposite.I t have to be truthful and tell you that some seedsman say it is OK not to isolate and others say you must. Cruise the net a bit and read what you can to choose for yourself.I have heard too many folks complain about their corn which is why I changed my mind.I have grown this one but it was by chance isolated.
Ambrosia is a hybrid sugar enhanced bi colour corn..( not synergistic) What worries me is that your seeds are home saved so you have the problem of them not coming true from hybrid plus the mystery of not knowing what they may have been crossed with so I can't help you really. Ideally they should be isolated from everything to try to keep them pure if you are trying to de hybridise them , they might be fine or they could cause havoc, I have no means of knowing.Just out of curiosity what colour are the kernels you saved, the corn should have had white and yellow kernels.
XX Jeannine
Jayb,, Anasazzi seeds I do know about. They were definitely found in caves and probably were found in claypots which was the order of the day for storage. Me thinks there has been a bit of horticulturist license used here!! ;) I wonder what they call the beans which were found at the same time ;D
Anasazzi (several spellings) will be multi coloured corn , used for flour, or decoration now of course, long growing season, they are pretty tough by the way so will stand a bit of abuse re water ,manure etc. Need to be well dried to use for flour, will pop if dried sufficiently. I have never eaten one fresh but you might get away with it if you put the water on to boil before you go to pick them!! Sorry couldn't resist using the old corn quote. I would have to try just for the heck of it.
Interesting..
I did find a multi coloured very edible corn in a catalogue somewhere this year which temped me , I will have to find it as it was new to me.
XX Jeannine
I would have just taken them all off a couple of cobs and to be honest I think the white kernals were very few and far between on each cob!
On you're advice I'll only go with the Ambrosia seed, already sown, and see what pops up. (Anyone like any Applause - to be sown this year?)
Thank you for your help Jeannine.
Ninny x
;D You mean they may not be from the originals!
Yes the seeds are multi coloured, I've not grown a 'corn' before and thought it sounded fun. I'll hopeful have a spot in the polytunnel for them. I could perhaps have a camp stove in the garden come harvest, save a few more seconds, may make all the difference ;D
Quote from: Jeannine on April 20, 2010, 22:50:55
I did find a multi coloured very edible corn in a catalogue somewhere this year which temped me , I will have to find it as it was new to me.
Wot like mine!
Irish Original maybe .. oh I 'me in trouble :o XX Jeannine
This is my first year of having a veg plot and so I'm very much a novice, hence likely to ask the MOST stupid questions, but that's how to learn. I had no idea about the dangers of mixing sweetcorn varieties so this thread both fascinates and terrifies! To add to the confusion I have been given two different packs of seeds - F1 Sweet Bounty and F1 Sundance but I'm struggling to find any online information about either. Sweet Bounty is a Super-Sweet variety and all I can find about Sundance is that it is 'standard'. Obviously the simple answer is to just pick one, but if I do that I won't have learned anything. Will they work together or am I likely to end up with mutant cobs?
Or you could plant one now and the other in a few weeks' time (check how long they take first, the idea is to have them flowering at different times), plant them at opposite ends of the plot, and you should be OK.
Quote from: Robert_Brenchley on April 21, 2010, 12:32:09
Or you could plant one now and the other in a few weeks' time (check how long they take first, the idea is to have them flowering at different times), plant them at opposite ends of the plot, and you should be OK.
Thanks - I had thought of that but there are two problems; my plot isn't that big, only 6 x 20ft so nowhere is THAT far from anywhere else and also, I can't find any timings for the Sweet Bounty. Sundance is sowing to cropping 14-16 weeks but the Sweet Bounty has no such useful guidance. Think it may be one variety this year and the other next year! I don't want to do anything foolish to dampen my enthusiasm, so this sounds like one 'mistake' I can avoid making even if it means keeping one packet of seeds firmly closed!
Hi Oberonuk..sorry I missed this one.
F! Sundance is a all golden normal sugar hybrid corn, it is an early 79 days
F1 Sweet Bounty also an all golden it is a supersweet, also an early and is 77 days .
You definitely could not plant these two together unless you can separate by distance.
If you are not surrounded by other corn growers may I suggest you plant the supersweet Sweet Bounty it is a very good corn for the UK weather. It is sweeter and has a longer shelf life than Sundance.
You could grow the second one Sundance as a mini corn, you would grow both together in the usual way but pick the Sundance when the cobs are tiny and before they start to tassle, this way they would be picked before they had a chance to pollinate the other one and you would be safe.
Sorry I didn't see this earlier.
XX Jeannine
You'll get no rest now girl. ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Thanks so much. That is 100% clear. Brilliant advice. I'd be a fool to not follow it. I'm amazed at how many books I have read that don't mention these issues at all - nor do the seed packets. I'd have no doubt had a disaster without all this sound advice. I only have a tiny plot so it would be heartbreaking to waste any space through ignorance and stupidity. I must say I have learned more through A4A than any other resource. People are so generous to give their advice, experience and ideas.
Cornykev, I don't mind.. I get cross with the UK seed sellers, they give no info on their packets most of the time and it is crucial with corn and they have been known to rename varieties too.They do the same with squash.
I have kept a journal of corns for years and update it constantly it is getting hard to keeep up but not stubbed my toe yet!!
I guess I should have a blog or something.
I am glad the info was usefull XX Jeannine
Quote from: Jeannine on April 20, 2010, 22:26:27
Ambrosia is a hybrid sugar enhanced bi colour corn..( not synergistic) What worries me is that your seeds are home saved so you have the problem of them not coming true from hybrid plus the mystery of not knowing what they may have been crossed with so I can't help you really. Ideally they should be isolated from everything to try to keep them pure if you are trying to de hybridise them , they might be fine or they could cause havoc, I have no means of knowing.Just out of curiosity what colour are the kernels you saved, the corn should have had white and yellow kernels.
XX Jeannine
Just an update on this for Jeannine, on the saved seed. I picked this one today and the white kernals are more of a cream colour but it still tasted sweet (eaten raw when I got home). There are 2 cobs on most of the plants. 2 plants with a single cob and one without any.
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t87/ninnyscrops/DSCF1599.jpg)
Ninny
That is great, you may get different ones on different plants so if you save seeds to try another year pick the ones you liked best and keep those, then next year see what you get again. I would be interested on how sweet and aslo if they are starchy, plus.. you need to keep a cob back and cook it three or four days later and then test again, I would even keep one a week.
You need to see how the time affects the eating quality.
XX Jeannine
Very interesting thread - this year I have grown Lark (because it must be popular for a reason) and Sundance (grew it last year and it was yum) in blocks only a few feet apart but separated by a bean wigwam. But I took into account the wind directions on the site. Sundance produces a reddish pollen and I could not see any of it on the Lark tassels so I am hoping for the best. With corn, as you are eating the seeds, it's important that they are true whereas say with Tomatoes not so.
Ate the fatest Lark cob yesterday, very nice but not quite ready ... but I couldn't wait.