Did anyone watch it?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_8517000/8517093.stm
Already boycotting Cadburys but that's another matter!
Food for thought AGAIN!
Ninny
x
Quote from: Ninnyscrops. on February 22, 2010, 21:42:56
Already boycotting Cadburys but that's another matter!
Ninny
x
For Cadbury read Kraft, but thats another story.
valmarg
Didn't see it but you can see from my avatar where my sympathies lie !
Yes i saw it , NC, just to awfull these companys have a lot to answer for. Maybe we should all stand up & be counted as doing something to help.
It is shocking when there is an alternative oil to use, for Gods sake what is wrong with these money grabbing companys. >:( >:( >:(.
Quote from: rosebud on February 23, 2010, 11:40:55
Yes i saw it , NC, just to awfull these companys have a lot to answer for. Maybe we should all stand up & be counted as doing something to help.
It is shocking when there is an alternative oil to use, for Gods sake what is wrong with these money grabbing companys. >:( >:( >:(.
So what oil would you use?
Quote from: Melbourne12 on February 23, 2010, 15:47:52
Quote from: rosebud on February 23, 2010, 11:40:55
Yes i saw it , NC, just to awfull these companys have a lot to answer for. Maybe we should all stand up & be counted as doing something to help.
It is shocking when there is an alternative oil to use, for Gods sake what is wrong with these money grabbing companys. >:( >:( >:(.
So what oil would you use?
Apparently Whale oil could work.
Quote from: OllieC on February 23, 2010, 15:52:23
Quote from: Melbourne12 on February 23, 2010, 15:47:52
Quote from: rosebud on February 23, 2010, 11:40:55
Yes i saw it , NC, just to awfull these companys have a lot to answer for. Maybe we should all stand up & be counted as doing something to help.
It is shocking when there is an alternative oil to use, for Gods sake what is wrong with these money grabbing companys. >:( >:( >:(.
So what oil would you use?
Apparently Whale oil could work.
Back in the day, the industry abbreviation for whale oil was JO. Stood for Jonah. ;D
But no, it isn't a substitute for Palm or Palm Kernel. Quite the wrong characteristics. :o
The increased use of palm oil is an unintended consequence of the fuss about "trans fats". If you don't want to use hardened vegetable oils, then you need to seek out those that are naturally hard enough. Palm oil was never a desirable commodity before. Apart from anything else, it's costly to remove the colour. Although it remains the cheapest of the major oils, all veg oil prices have skyrocketed because of the demand for biofuels.
I have only bought full dairy ice cream for years and don't buy anything that says it uses palm oil or palm sugar. Apart from the ethics it is saturated fat and if I want that I can do lard or coconut fat depending on what I'm cooking.
I was very shocked to see palm oil and sugar listed in the contents of a Duchy Originals organic Xmas pud last year. I didn't buy that either.
Isn't palm oil used in soap, shampoo and cosmetics.
Yes it is diggers! There are plenty of alternatives for any given use, just not as good an all-rounder. We survived for almost the entire history of mankind without it, after all!
Quote from: OllieC on February 23, 2010, 18:54:41
Yes it is diggers! There are plenty of alternatives for any given use, just not as good an all-rounder. We survived for almost the entire history of mankind without it, after all!
I hate to be contentious. But palm oil is hardly an "all rounder". And just to convince this sceptic, name the alternatives. Just two or three for each usage will do, no need to list all of the plenty. Thanks :)
Most of the stuff in that trolley is what I would call luxury. Bread can be made with olive oil, I make Roman Army bread often. Sweets can be made without it, and the Vanish jobbie......what's wrong with the old fashioned natural stain removers?
We've all got lazy and, in my humble opinion, life in the fast lane is exactly where all these producers want our lives to be.
Ninny
Melbourne, on the programe last nightthere was a company that had imported another oil that could be used, they had only sold a percentage of it because the BIG GREEDY companys did not want to buy it.
Watch it on the BBCiplayer.
It says these companies are working towards a segregated supply, surely they should be working towards a totally sustainable supply.
Otherwise the 'dodgy' palm oil will be bought up by unscrupulous suppliers and used in products made on other countries and imported that way.
Where there's a way round something 'crooks' will always find a way.
Quote from: rosebud on February 23, 2010, 23:13:47
Melbourne, on the programe last nightthere was a company that had imported another oil that could be used, they had only sold a percentage of it because the BIG GREEDY companys did not want to buy it.
Watch it on the BBCiplayer.
Good advice. I will. I'll be fascinated to see what this alternative oil is (unless it's coconut for soap making, on which subject I'll post more later).
Edit: I just watched it. Mo mention of alternatives. Was it edited out? If so, why? The iPlayer episode was called "Dying for a Biscuit".. Is there another one to watch?
According to this article ( http://www.healthcastle.com/palm-oil-trans-fat-free-foods.shtml ), here are some food alternatives:
"non-hydrogenated soy, canola, corn, and peanut oils as well as more stable oils such as high-oleic sunflower or canola oil, or low-linolenic soybean oil."
Lots of the time it is used as some kind of substitute for dairy - the obvious solution to me is to eat dairy stuff!
Lots of other oils work with soaps... er, what else do you want, Mel?
Quote from: OllieC on February 24, 2010, 14:42:54
According to this article ( http://www.healthcastle.com/palm-oil-trans-fat-free-foods.shtml ), here are some food alternatives:
"non-hydrogenated soy, canola, corn, and peanut oils as well as more stable oils such as high-oleic sunflower or canola oil, or low-linolenic soybean oil."
Lots of the time it is used as some kind of substitute for dairy - the obvious solution to me is to eat dairy stuff!
Lots of other oils work with soaps... er, what else do you want, Mel?
Interesting article from the nutrition site, but very American. The USA uses hardly any palm oil. It's not their tradition. If you wander inquisitively round an American supermarket, there are loads of products with corn oil and corn syrup, but few with hard fats. American food may be fairly averagely foul to English tastes, but that's because it's different. They use far more sugar than we do, and still hydrogenate oils to harden them, although somewhat less than they used to.
Do you want a crisp ginger nut, digestive, or shortbread? Or do you prefer a soft cookie?
English fruit cake or American muffin?
Cadbury's or Hershey?
English apple pie or American?
Because if you eliminate palm oil and substitute sunflower or rapeseed (canola in US-speak), that's the choice you're making.
Plus of course, you've then swapped the evils of palm oil monoculture for the evils of other monocultures.
And if we look at soap making and substitute coconut for palm, then you'll no doubt be watching programmes about how land clearance for coconut planting has endangered some adorable fluffy creature. I notice that the scandal of driving pilchards and anchovies to extinction in the Pacific Ocean for the sake of fish oil goes unremarked. Pilchards aren't cuddly, though. Unless you're very odd.
I must say that I thought the programme that I watched on the iPlayer was very poor. It was thin on content and light on facts. Two thirds was devoted to pictures of orang utans. They are no doubt very cute. What did we learn? Indonesian rain forests are being cleared for timber and for plantations. What proportion of clearance is for palm oil? We don't know (I've read but haven't corroborated that it's about a third). The reporter found two instances of illegal clearance. Indonesia is vast. Is this typical? We don't know. We learned that the supply chain for palm oil is such that traceability is impossible, but every UK firm interviewed (including those not on the programme but reported on the website) is committed to using traceable and sustainable palm by 2015. Is this good enough? Could it be improved? We don't know.
And where are the numbers? No mention in the programme. Palm oil prices have risen by around 500%, from $200 a tonne to over $1000 a tonne within two or three years. Why? Is it really that Warburton loaves (my estimate for palm oil content 3g) or Haribo sweeties (my estimate a gram or so) have become so popular that they've placed an intolerable strain on supplies? Everyone on the planet would have to be guzzling Haribo sandwiches spread thickly with Flora! The entire UK demand for palm oil must be less than 6% of current world production. And yet world demand is growing steadily by 3 to 4% each year.
Another interesting number is that although Indonesia makes huge amounts of money from palm oil, it consumes nearly a third itself. Who are the big importers? China, India, and the EU, in that order.
I guess that if it makes people feel better, by all means boycott Pringles, or Haribo, or Maltesers. Heck, I'll join you. I never buy them anyway. But it won't make a ha'porth of difference to the rainforests. You'd do better to ask about sustainable sourcing of the mahogany veneer on your furniture. Or reverse the absurd campaign for "renewable fuels" that has led to precious food being converted into petrol.
Bit of a rant, I'm afraid. Sorry 'bout that. I'm feeling better now. ;D
Lots of the time it is used as some kind of substitute for dairy - the obvious solution to me is to eat dairy stuff!
??? Not always an option Ollie.... :-[
Quote from: saddad on February 24, 2010, 17:43:45
Lots of the time it is used as some kind of substitute for dairy - the obvious solution to me is to eat dairy stuff!
??? Not always an option Ollie.... :-[
But it is for most people, and I'm sure given a choice you'd much prefer it.
Most people do have a choice, yet they "choose" to eat the bland, rancid, excessively processed, hydrocarbon consuming junk that is marketed as being the best thing. We're such marketing junkies in the West that we don't even realise the insanity of what we do. People think there is no alternative to what we consume and the way we consume it, because that is what the marketing men tell us. And it's simply not true.
p.s., I didn't think much of the programme either - I know we need the cute angle to make people care, but instead of "save the cute little ape things", it should be "stop trashing the planet by making cra@p we don't need so that lazy Westerners can carry on polluting their bodies and the environment with gay abandon, until both of them are so diseased that it's too late to fix it", or something equally catchy!
From the 2008/09 palm oil consumption figures
Total world consumption 42.1m tonnes, of which
Thoroughly good and ecologically sound chaps in the Far East (China, Japan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand) 15.0m tonnes, 35.6%
Thoroughly good and ecologically sound chaps in the sub-continent (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka) 8.3m tonnes, 19.7%
Lazy westerners trashing the planet (EU, USA) 5.3m tonnes, 12.6%
Thoroughly good and ecologically sound chaps in ROW 13.5m tonnes, 32.1%
Have you got those figures per head of population? Also, it is the West that dictates how most of the rest of the world lives so it is still lazy-arsed westernisation.
Most people here (in developed parts of the world) have a choice about how they live and what they consume, most people in developing countries don't. So yes, we are lazy for sitting here kidding ourselves that we have no choice.
Clearly you've made up your mind, this stuff is great and there is no alternative, nice one!
Quote from: OllieC on February 25, 2010, 11:16:40
Have you got those figures per head of population? Also, it is the West that dictates how most of the rest of the world lives so it is still lazy-arsed westernisation.
Most people here (in developed parts of the world) have a choice about how they live and what they consume, most people in developing countries don't. So yes, we are lazy for sitting here kidding ourselves that we have no choice.
I don't subscribe to the theory that only the western world is "developed", and the rest are somehow culturally enslaved. But, FWIW, here are the figures per head for yearly consumption of palm oil in kilograms per capita, using the same demographics as above:
Far East 8.40 kg/person/year
Sub Continent 5.43
Western World 6.54
Rest of World 5.04
Quote from: OllieC on February 25, 2010, 11:16:40
Clearly you've made up your mind, this stuff is great and there is no alternative, nice one!
My mind could be changed in an instant by a convincing argument. Neither do I think it's great. It's a very poor quality oil indeed. Like most A4Aers, I'm sure, our household uses very little palm oil. I had a quick prowl through the store cupboard and could find hardly anything. * We make our own bread with butter or oil. We consume a little chocolate and biscuits, but no margarine, processed cakes, commercial batters, and so on. But millions of people do, and of course the catering trade uses it. I'm not going to be so snooty as to not eat curries at modest restaurants, or fish and chips, or a commercial sandwich at the various offices at which I might find myself working.
But for those who think that substitution of unsaturated oils for saturated fats like palm is the easy answer, let me set them ....
Melbourne's Kitchen ChallengePut to one side the butter or margarine that you normally use. Instead buy a bottle of sunflower, or rapeseed, or groundnut, or soy oil. Actually, any cheap blended vegetable oil will do. It will probably be a rapeseed/sunflower blend..
Using your usual recipe for pastry, but substituting oil for your usual pastry fat, make a nice pie. Sweet or savoury, doesn't matter. Record your family's reaction to it.
Similarly, make a cake. A sponge cake will be less wasteful of ingredients than a fruit cake, but either will do. Again, record the reaction of those who are offered a slice.
Remember if you normally use butter or margarine to substitute 80% oil, 20% water. If you use a solid baking fat like Trex or lard, it's a simple equal weight substitution.
Finally, let's do a sandwich for lunch. Spread the bread with oil (I'll forgive you the 20% water) rather than butter or spread.
If you can honestly come back to me and say that the end result was as nice (or perhaps nicer) than normal, I'll be convinced.
* I do have a block of jaggery, or palm sugar, used in Indian cooking. Mea culpa.
We got rid of our bears, wolves and many other wild creatures centuries ago so that they did not interfere with our agricultural aspirations. By hunting the creatures to extinction. Or chopping down our forests and destroying other habitats.
I did see the programme and do understand both sides of the issues.
There are just too many humans in the world all of us wanting the best we can get from the world's resources. We are criticizing 'third world' countries who ultimately supply our needs, for doing exactly the same as we have already done.
We can not feed ourselves, provide our own fuel or clothing unless we import the materials for our needs. It is pretty scary if you think about it. We produce very little and if no one will export to us we will starve.