My brother in law and his sister have worked an allotment together for some years .Sadly my brother in law passed away a few months ago and the plot was in his name,now his sister has approached the committee asking if she could take over his allotment and keep it in the same condition as when her brother was alive but she has been told to take all his belongings (shed greenhouses tools etc off site ) it is a self managed site so there is no point approaching the council has anyone got any ideas.
GRANDAD.
So sorry to hear that your brother in law has passed away and that now his sister is being told to leave the plot. This is something that I have heard off before. Personally, I think it is unfair and callous at such a sensitive time. As they both worked and kept the plot it will have some poignant memories for his sister and may hurt her terribly to have the plot taken away in such a manner. Why do managers/ land owners take such a stance? If his sister is willing to keep the plot up to scratch I can't see the problem. I have no idea of how she stands legally but I am sure that Unwashed and others will be along soon to advise. Thinking of you both
JB
sorry to hear the sad news. i also have never heard of this,does she have a tenancy agreement to look at,and see if there is anything in there to support her wish to keep the plot? is the site affiliated to the NSALG,as they will be able to help too. how rotten of them to be so callous,as jeanbean said.how on earth is she expected to remove a shed and greenhouse,very unfair. i hope you find some help here,thoughts to all of you
rach
x
It does sound as if whoever is managing the site is being a little insensitive, to say the least.
One of our older member asked last year if the plot could be taken by his daughter, who often came down with him to help (although he still intends to come when he can). To us, that was no problem.
But then, if one of our long-time members had died, several of us would have attended the funeral, so would have been in touch with the situation.
A tenancy should be allowed to pass to a direct relative
I don't agree that the tenancy should be able to be passed on because someone dies. An allotment plot is not the same as a home or property it is a garden.
I think that if they want to take joint responsibility for a plot to put their names on together - when they are both actively working the plot - then when and if one of them dies - the other automatically takes the tenancy in their single name.
It is a sad time though and it is a shame that they didn't sort this out before one of them died. I would think that the sister would be allowed to take over - if they point out that she worked the plot with him and other neighbouring plot owners back her up.
Old Bird
Good luck to her anyway.
Our rules do not allow 'helpers' to take on a plot should the plotholder pass away or decide just to give up the plot. Exception to this is that we do allow it to be passed from father to son, mother to daughter etc. Immediate family only. Ask around on the site, see if any others have inherited their plot this way. We have some plots that are on the 3rd & 4th generation of the same family.
I agree with Old Bird. It is not a possession that you have the right to hand on.
However, a modicum of common sense and humanity among those in charge of the site would not go amiss.
We have just had a slightly different case. The plot was in the husband's name and was reasonably well tended. Unfortunately, the couple have split up and the husband is no longer interested in the plot. The wife asked to retain the plot and the council agreed in this case. I think that if the plot had been neglected the outcome would probably have been different.
Quote from: BAK on February 16, 2010, 18:02:42
However, a modicum of common sense and humanity among those in charge of the site would not go amiss.
They must know her on the site? It seems very cold to me.
Sorry to hear about your brother in law.
Our site is self-managed too, but the Council rules say that if a plot becomes vacant because of the tenant's death then it must be offered to any member of the tenant's family who wishes to take over.
Has the sister checked the rules issued by the Council? There might be something there about what should happen to a plot when a tenant dies. Even if the site is self-managed, I think I would still approach the Council and ask for their view on it.
Sorry to hear about your situation. I think Squash's idea about talking to the council as well is a good one. And once I'd got some more info I'd also start in on a bit of a campaign - contact the local press, my local Councillor etc, try and drum up some support locally.
Wishing you well
1066
Quote from: 1066 on February 17, 2010, 06:31:38
Sorry to hear about your situation. I think Squash's idea about talking to the council as well is a good one. And once I'd got some more info I'd also start in on a bit of a campaign - contact the local press, my local Councillor etc, try and drum up some support locally.
Wishing you well
1066
I agree. Before doing this has she tried writing a letter explaining how involved she was and not having her name on the paperwork was a mere technicality, perhaps go for an emotional persuasion before a legal one? Good luck x
Hi grandad
The best hope is that the committee do the decent thing, but assuming they don't:
If the brother gave the tenancy to someone in his will then whoever he gave it to could asign it to her - they just write her a letter telling her the tenancy is hers, and she gives a copy of the letter and will to the committee. It's worth a try, because it would confuse the hell out of the committee.
If she can show that she paid some of the rent then she has a reasonable claim to keep the tenancy.
Either way, without a possession order from the court all the comittee can do is bluster, and the longer they delay, the better her chances are.
She's probably weakened her case if she's asked the committee to take over the tenancy, because it admits that she's just a trespasser, so she needs to write to them again explaining that she was mistaken and that she is in fact already the tenant because either she inherited it or because she co-owned, and would they ammend their records so that she received the bill in future. It'll give them something to think about.
Thing is, she probably doesn't have a very good right to keep the tenancy and it'll be a bit of a challenge to make the argument convincingly, so there's a reasonable chance the committee will get possession if they apply to the court, and a chance then that she'll have to pay their court costs too - £several hundred potentially. Still, it costs her nothing to take it to the wire and they might just blink first.
Unwashed - you are not on the same wavelength as us!
You are talking about home tenancies and property law which has nothing to do with allotment law.
You cannot "Will" your allotment to anyone - you do not "own" the tenancy as a right. You are "allowed" to use the land for growing veg etc but that is all. If you sign as "joint tenants" then you each have the same rights as a "single" name tenant. Also you do not have "rights" similar to those of property ownership/rental this is a completely different ball game which is why we pay so little "rent" per year!
But for goodness sake don't get all heated and talk of "inherited tenancy" and the like!
Grandad - Take it easy and write to the committee or council explaining the situation - I am sure they are not ogres - and will understand the situation.
Old Bird
::)
Bit of publicity in the local press wouldn't go amiss ??? ??? ???
Quote from: Old bird on February 17, 2010, 10:28:59
You do not "own" the tenancy as a right. You are "allowed" to use the land for growing veg etc but that is all.
OB, You're thinking of a licence, but an allotment tenancy is a lease - exclusive possession == lease.
Yes on technical terms you may be right Unwashed but a "Lease" "Licence" are much the same and can be determined by a number of factors and death of a "tenant" is one of them as "they (the tenant)" are unable to carry out the terms of the lease/licence ie maintain the plot.
There are no "ownership" rights to an allotment - you have tenancy rights - and they are applicable to the "tenant" only they are not transferable to other members of the family as a "right". The owner of the land remains in ownership at all times and can (as sometimes happens) when a site is closed down (as has happened in London to make way for the Olympics). There is no continuing right to those allotments howevery long they have been "leased" to owners of familys in the past.
There are some plots "up North"! where they were purchased and you could buy into and sell on these plots as the land was owned by the allotment committe or whatever they would call it. But where they are owned by a Council, Private Landlord or Company they remain always in the ownership of the "Owners" and are not allowed to be given, passed on to family relatives, or Willed to anyone.
You have exclusive possession of an allotment plot for however long you want it if you keep to all the rules, regulations and maintenance aspects in your name (and joint if required) for as long as you want. They are not "transferable" to someone you "designate".
Old Bird
It's quite normal to allow transfer to a close relative, so I'd have thought a bit of campaigning would have a good chance!
I agree with you Robert I think that that is definitely the way forward. I don't think it should take much persuasion either - as she has been doing it for many years and the plot neighbours will back up her claim.
O B
Thanks to for your comments I have taken on board some of your suggestions and will try them to see what transpires.It was one of my brother in laws last wishes that we try to keep his allotment in the family. We on our site are told that we cannot have shared tenancies and only one name can be on your lease. But if you are a committee member you can have one your plots put in your wifes name but any other person who approaches the subject is told its against the rules.
We don't have shared tenancies on our site either - we are a limited company and all plot-holders are shareholders. But - in circumstances like this - the share simply transfers to the family member, who therefore takes over the plot.
And if husband & wife both wish to become members, that's fine - it just means two plots.
That's the sort of point you need to be making loud and clear! Why should there be one rule for the clique and another rule for everyone else?
Grandad - from what you have said I would say you are not being treated equitably. I usually find in tricky situations that if you mention to the council or the committee of whoever that you are not being treated equitably they soon back down!
Best wishes
1066
Quote from: Old bird on February 17, 2010, 12:03:12
Yes on technical terms you may be right Unwashed but a "Lease" "Licence" are much the same and can be determined by a number of factors and death of a "tenant" is one of them as "they (the tenant)" are unable to carry out the terms of the lease/licence ie maintain the plot.
There are no "ownership" rights to an allotment - you have tenancy rights - and they are applicable to the "tenant" only they are not transferable to other members of the family as a "right". The owner of the land remains in ownership at all times and can (as sometimes happens) when a site is closed down (as has happened in London to make way for the Olympics). There is no continuing right to those allotments howevery long they have been "leased" to owners of familys in the past.
There are some plots "up North"! where they were purchased and you could buy into and sell on these plots as the land was owned by the allotment committe or whatever they would call it. But where they are owned by a Council, Private Landlord or Company they remain always in the ownership of the "Owners" and are not allowed to be given, passed on to family relatives, or Willed to anyone.
You have exclusive possession of an allotment plot for however long you want it if you keep to all the rules, regulations and maintenance aspects in your name (and joint if required) for as long as you want. They are not "transferable" to someone you "designate".
Old Bird
A lease and licence are very different. A lease is property (S.1 Law of Property 1925 defines it so), and it doesn't end with the death of the tenant. By rights the tenancy would need to be ended by either the landlord or estate serving notice to quit, though I don't think that's usual. I have seen clauses that say the tenancy will end if the tenant dies, but I suspect that could be challenged.
Ownership of land is not a very precise description of what goes on. If you rent some land that you own, then you retain the freehold reversion, but the tenant has the right to exclusive possession and you have no more right to go into the field than the next man. In a sense you still 'own' the field because when the lease ends you get your rights back, but it's the tenant that enjoys the field, and although she is not the freeholder the field (that is, the right to exclusively enjoy the field) is the tenant's property.
If you rented out the field for a high rent then the freehold reversion (which itself is still property) is itself valuable, but if you own the freehold reversion of an otherwise valuable field let for 1000 years at £1/year then what you have isn't worth very much, and it's the leaseholder that own the valuable property, ie, the lease.
My church owns a parcel of land which is leased to National Childrens' Homes for 99 years, on a ridiculous lease which only allows the rent to be reassessed every 33 years. That's where they were in the 1960's; I've heard even worse stories.
So a few years ago we were getting about £300 a year, NCH were sitting pretty, and they were desperate to buy the land off us. Meanwhile, the land was worth nothing to us. We sat tight, the magic 33rd year came, and suddenly we were the ones with a valuable property, at least till inflation eats it away!
Swindon is full of houses with a 999 year lease set up ath the turn of the century circa 1900. The ground rent was set at 7s 6d a week now 38p. A huge amount at the time. Since it is specifically payable weekly it is too expensive to collect. Also Lease holders now have the right o buy the freehold and it cost too much to transfer. So the freeholder has now gone to ground and the ground rents have not been paid for many years. So the total value of the properties lie in the lease.
I think we are talking about different things Unwashed. Field leases are very different to allotment leases.
If you have an allotment from the Council you have a Lease or a Licence?
If we were able to get these Leases/Licences from the council for nothing and then keep them in the family and Will them to future family upon our deaths - there would never be any allotments for newcomers. They are only used for the named persons and not for inheritance by deed of gift or anything.
As I say Unwashed - I think we are talking about very different things. A field lease is a very much more complicated legal document to an allotment lease. In a field lease you get into boundaries, water supplies, stream boundaries, gates, etc. With a field lease it is considered an asset on death and has monetary value and can be passed on or willed to family or whoever. Certainly nothing like the allotment Lease I signed.
Digeroo - Yes that Lease is different from an allotment Lease. It is many pages long and when you buy or sell the Leasehold property the solicitors will enquire as to whether the ground rent has been paid and if not who it has to be paid to or whatever. This lease ties you into a number of conditions and holds you to various obligations. It is normally possible to buy the freehold for a couple of hundred quid if you can contact the freeholder which is generally not too difficult to find out
these Leases normally involve property ie. houses/flats and obviously they have a value and can be left to your family or whoever you choose. This is completely different to the allotment leases that we mostly agree to and which is what the original thread was about.
I think that most allotment leases are not complicated legal documents they are simple and I have never heard of anyone being served a Section whatever notice. They are just told that if they don't bring the allotment up to scratch they will be asked to leave. There is never any "court forms" or anything like that!
As I have already said that may be that we are just a Town Council and the bigger cities and councils probably run things along very different lines and so I may be talking out of my hat!
Old Bird
:o
I am not convniced that the simplicity of the lease agreement has any particular bearing on situation.
The turn of the century leases are very simple documents, in fact too simple since they did not give any opportunity for increasing the payments.
Has anyone tested the situation by insisting that they had inherited an allotment lease and taken it to court? I would suggest local authorities and the allotment movement do not want a ruling on this matter.
Apart from a few cases it is a much better principle that it passes to the next person on the official list rather than being sold like a property lease.
Quote from: Digeroo on February 18, 2010, 12:42:10
I am not convniced that the simplicity of the lease agreement has any particular bearing on situation.
The turn of the century leases are very simple documents, in fact too simple since they did not give any opportunity for increasing the payments.
There is no formality requirement for a short lease of less than three years, so a verbal agreement creates a legal lease just as effectively as a tenancy agreement, whether executed as a deed or not. Although an allotment lease can run for many years it's actually a periodic tenancy for a year. It's a fundamental requirement that the extent of the land being leased is defined, so that might well take a bit of description with a field whereas you basically just need to know the plot number for an allotment. There aren't any required terms to an agreement so it's only as complicated as the landlord (or her solicitor) wants to make it.
Incidentally, defining the boundary of a field is notoriously tricky: given a field bounded by a ditch and hedge, where exactly do you suppose the boundary line runs?
Quote from: Digeroo on February 18, 2010, 12:42:10
Apart from a few cases it is a much better principle that it passes to the next person on the official list rather than being sold like a property lease.
It's an interesting point, and I tend to agree, but the problem is created by the lack of allotments. If there were no waiting lists there would be little value in a current lease, and little objection if anyone wanted to assign or inherit.
Back to the OP..I really really hope and wish that the poor bereaved lady will keep the lottie she and her bro have cultivated - and keep it without going through ins-and-out hoops - isorl. :(
Any common decency, any humanity, and the question wouldn't have arisen, to me. >:(