Allotments 4 All

My council votes on Monday on a proposal to set the rent for new tenants at £25/pole.  It's currently £4.71.  They have 300 odd allotmenteers on six sites, with 100 on the waiting list.  Our sites are managed directly by the council and they spend about £60k, mainly on administration, but only get around £12k in rent so they say it's only fair we pay our way.  But I can't help feel that it'll kill the allotment movement in Newbury if they vote it through.  I've been campaigning for a couple of years to allow tenants to get involved in the maintenance and administration and we've now got an effective society going, though the council has been hostile to our formation and is only now talking about working with us, so it's a sensitive time and I'm not sure what to do for the best.  I don't particularly want to go self-managed because I don't particularly want to see the allotment staff at the council made redundent, but if the alternative is £25/pole and the decline of allotmenteering in Newbury I choose the allotment.  I'd really rather they hadn't come up with this stupid idea because it doesn't help at all.

hi unwashed,just my quick thoughts as im up very early tmrw to take OH to his op the other side of town,which has effectievely shut down in the snow,so ill come back with more tmrw evening.my first thought is not to worry about the council staff having  jobs,they will be shifted to another dept,im sure

Precisely what are the council doing for their £60k mainly administration cost?  This is two people full time.    If they get 12K in rent then this is what they should budget to spend.  I other words one part time person.  

Hi Digeroo, There are several staff that deal with the allotments; principally two full-time clearks and a services manager, though they have other duties and there are other council staff that get involved too.  What the council have done is looked at their total running costs and divvied it up amoungst the various services they provide according to the amount of time they spend on it.  There's about £12k maintenance costs is there too, but most of the £60k is administration - which is principally sending out the bills and dealing with the odd complaint.

I deal with the admin (minutes, bills, newsletters, complaints, termination etc letters) for our site (100 plots). The costs pro rata are much lower than what your council quotes but then I and the other committee members are volunteers so there are no salary costs. The time involved is probably in the region of 2-3 hours per week on average so not huge.

It sounds like an awful lot of money for not a lot of work to me. (I think) my council has 1 member of staff to manage all the sites, sounds like there is something amiss in the system to me. And such a hike in rents will surely prevent a lot of people continuing with their plots?!
What do neighbouring boroughs do / charge?

Hope you have better news for us on Monday!
1066

Quote from: Unwashed on January 06, 2010, 07:34:34
Hi Digeroo, There are several staff that deal with the allotments; principally two full-time clearks and a services manager, though they have other duties and there are other council staff that get involved too. 

Then they should be looking at how efficiently their staff are working. They are either doing jack-all or the systems they are asking them to do are ridiculous.

Don't worry about the staff there is alot of movement between departments in councils and before making them redundant they will have to try this.

They are putting the guilt trip on you to try and get you to comply by telling you this information.

Don't bend to the pressure.

That is a ridiculous charge for an allotment.

The ground staff workers most probably are not 'council workers' as I expect they got shifted to the private sector when nearly all the ground staff all over the country  where sold along with the machinery to private contractors. They will only be paid the minimum wage so being put out of work will not be a hardship, just a dent in their pride.
You will be doing a few a favour as redundency pay goes a long way to setting you up as a private gardener. It done it for me. Never looked back.

Get political and get the local press involved. It sounds like a horror story for the front page with an election only 5 months away and is a great time to apply pressure.

Since most local papers hardly employ any staff draft up a story supported with quotes, photos and supporting documents to demonstrate the veracity of the story.

OC

Thanks.  You're right ACE, ground staff are all contractors, but most of the cost goes on council-employed office workers.  It's only a Town Council, 12 or so staff total, so self-management would have to mean redundancies because thet's where the council would save the money.

Grawrc, I'm amazed how little work it takes to administer 100 plots - it does make £60k look very bad value for money doesn't it.

Old Central, it is kind of political.  The Society wants the council's cooperation and making a big song and dance over this is going to make the council very cross with us, but I can't help feeling there'll be nothing left of the allotment service in a few years if the rent goes to £25/pole so it's looking like there's nothing to lose.

Ideally the council would come and talk to us first, but that's not happened yet.  We have been asked our opinion, but I don't know how much notice they'll take.

I had a part time job where we sent out more than six hundred invoices every month, and dealing with them and the resulting payments and credit control was only a small part of my job.   Since there is little year to year change,  sound like they need a good spreadsheet or a bit of accounting software which will churn out the invoices.

Absolutely! My first year in the job I did a lot more hours producing templates etc but now we have them it's just a cut and paste and print. Address labels  for everyone take about 20 seconds to produce - in fact it takes longer to stick them on the envelopes!

Edinburgh council has one full-time allotments officer to deal with over 1000 plots on 21 sites and a waiting list of over 2000 (some of whom he passes on to me). The rent for the plots which vary from about 180sq metres to 250 sq metres is £60 and £30 for concessions irrespective of the actual area of the plot. i.e. you pay the same for 180 as 250 - it's the luck of the draw and depends on things like the shape of the site. Half-plots where available get charged half prices.

We, on the other hand charge £20 per plot (about 200 sq metres but variable!!) and £10 per half plot with no concessions. We have water but no toilets. Correction we now have one composting toilet. We are also responsible for all site maintenance and security.

Cut and paste is fine but a good macro will just work down a list and print out an invoice for each person.  You are right stuffing the envelopes will take the most time.
I used to do that while I was talking on the phone answering queries.  But that is just the kind of thing they could pass on to allotment volunteers.  Matching the payments is a little more time consuming.   My guess is that there is little non payment. 

I have just noticed even more expensive plots in an article in The Ecologist. This is another example of a private company who thinks that there is money to be made out of allotments.

The New Allotment Company Ltd is advertising plots of 1000 sq. feet (approx. 4.5 poles according to my maths) for £150 per year. Information is very sketchy, eg no indication if it is mains water. Lots of parking spaces (50 for a 300 plot site) but only 6 standpipes for the whole site.

http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_round_up/391703/private_allotment_company_gets_mixed_welcome.html (http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_round_up/391703/private_allotment_company_gets_mixed_welcome.html)

There is a link at the bottom of the article to the company's website.

I am on a private site and yes it would be nice to have a local authority one but there are none in our area. The farmer is getting more than for meadow land, and does not have to feed the allotments twice a day 365 days a year. 

I cannot image at that price they will get many people off waiting lists.

http://www.nlgn.org.uk/public/2009/can-you-dig-it-meeting-community-demand-for-allotments/

States 1% own 70% of the land.  I think there is plenty of land around.

Hi BAK, that's depressing.  3.6 poles for £150, increadible.  It makes me very cross.  It excludes all but the most affluent from an opportunity to grow their own, and that is the basis of the allotment movement.  It's a hobby for a lot of us, yes, but primarity it's somewhere for us to grow food to feed our families.  And the problem is with the councils.  Everywhere but London, councils have a duty to provide enough plots for everyone to have as big a plot as they want, and they have the power to rent the land at an agricultural rent so in most cases the only reason there are waiting lists is because councils are choosing to ignore their legal duty.  Sites can be run at a profit and still charge £4/pole, so if the councils run their service inefficiently they should be taken to task by their tax payers.

yes your maths is better than mine - its 3.6 poles.

Is a pole a full sized allottment? I read somewhere about what people could expect to pay for an allotment and the rent for a full sized plot went up to £250/year and at that rate you would expect secure fencing, water supply and toilets.
I would be wary of too much publicity. It might back fire. i have had to go private cause we don't have allotments. i have enough land for about 2 1/2 allotments. I have water, which I can extend, a toilet and a 24 hour manned gate - a tramp lives in a shed and guards the gate! I am paying hundreds/ year so will be selling quite a bit of produce just to pay the rent.

I believe  "standard" allotments are between 5 and 10 poles

Our standard plots are ten poles...

QuoteIs a pole a full sized allottment? I read somewhere about what people could expect to pay for an allotment and the rent for a full sized plot went up to £250/year and at that rate you would expect secure fencing, water supply and toilets.

I can't get them to agree to pay £27 pa and we have all of the above....  >:(

Unwashed - this might be of interest to you:-

Birmingham City Council has 114 sites in total across the City,

2 sites are being developed and aren't open at the moment,

20 are classed as Departmental sites (no Association).

There are nearly 7,000 plots

There are 92 active Associations, of which 19 sites come under Self Management.

To deal with all this, we have one Allotment Officer and two full-time office staff.

(I asked one of the office staff and she gave me the information)

That's really useful Squash, thanks very much.  Oh, your PM box is full!

Council backed down on the £25/pole but everyone got a 47% increase.

So how big are the plots? How much will they be paying? I cant work out this pole thing - I was only born 56 years ago! I know that in Shrewsbury the plot i had was typical and that was about 90 feet by 30 feet. The only plots that we managed to get in my present town , after a lot of argument are tiny, with no water, nothing, so weren't any use to me.

pole /rod/perch is 5.5 yards and normally used squared for land measurement. 1 (square) pole = 30.25 sq yards or 25.29 sq metres. So if your plot was 300 sq yards (90 feet by 30 feet) it was approx 9.92 (square) poles.(1 / 30.25 x300)

And I agree! One instance where the metric system wins hands down.

So by my reckoning they were intending to pitch the price right at the top end of the scale! If anyone is in this situation then you do need to convert it to what is a normal plot ie. 300 square yards approx. I reckon they  wanted £250 for that. I once did some research into what  facilities were provided by councils other than my own who did not even provide allotments. Sandwell was impressive. High metal security fence with impressive security gate, toilets, tarmac roads to the plots,clubhouse, shop, water taps everywhere, brick shed on each plot and delivery of wood chips and street leaves for allotment holders to use. And the rents were nowhere near that..
Allotments are good because they appeal to people of different ages, sex and cultures ( no longer the sole preserve of white, elderly working class males), they provide physical recreation for all including the elderly (how many leisure centres have much for the elderly?), they can easily be adapted to be used by the disabled, they provide community cohesion (usually), they are good environmentally and they help make communities sustainable.
Now i know I am preaching this to the converted and am not trying to "state the bleedin obvious" but councils have been set targets by government, all of the above of which are included in those targets. Some councils have twigged that properly run allotments mean they can tick lots of boxes and are actively encouraging them rather than trying to screw the tenants for as much cash as they dare.

Quote from: Geoff H on January 14, 2010, 16:08:20
Sandwell was impressive. High metal security fence with impressive security gate, toilets, tarmac roads to the plots,clubhouse, shop, water taps everywhere, brick shed on each plot and delivery of wood chips and street leaves for allotment holders to use. And the rents were nowhere near that..

Just want to blow Birmingham's trumpet on this one - our site has all of the above too. There are also twice-yearly meetings with the Council's allotment department for all self-managed sites to discuss issues.

Plus a regular newsletter from the allotment department, posted to all allotment sites in the city. 

We also get our grass cut and hedges trimmed by council contractors (no charge to us)

There are 114 sites across the city with nearly 7000 plots with only one Allotments Officer and two office staff.  Not bad eh?

Quote from: grawrc on January 14, 2010, 00:20:29
pole /rod/perch is 5.5 yards and normally used squared for land measurement. 1 (square) pole = 30.25 sq yards or 25.29 sq metres. So if your plot was 300 sq yards (90 feet by 30 feet) it was approx 9.92 (square) poles.(1 / 30.25 x300)

And I agree! One instance where the metric system wins hands down.

cricket wicket is 4 pole / rod  long, or 1 chain, (actual real item you can purchase),  10 chains = 1 furlong, the length of a furrow when ploughed by horses, (distance before horse had a 'breather' and turned round) 8 furlong is one mile.
the rod or pole was a long stick, long enough to drive a horse or ox from the back of the plough.
http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/units/length.htm#land

Sorry Geoff, the £/pole rate is useful because plots come in all different sizes.  5 pole or smaller is reasonably standard now whereas 10 pole was the standard size a decade or so ago, and before that it's possible that 20 or even 40 poles was thought of as a standard size big enough to feed a family.  40 poles is the biggest an allotment let under the allotment acts is allowed to be.

A pole, rod, lug and perch are all the same area - 16.5' x 16.5', and there are 160 poles to the acre.

So at £25/pole a 10 pole plot costs £250, and for example would be 30' x 90', and a 5-pole plot costs £125 and for example would be 30' x 45'.

I think my private plot is equivalent to about 30 poles. If you keep chickens you probably need something like that. I did hear of some plots years ago where they were allowed pigs. Even though its just the two of us and mother in law (my wife is suffering from empty nest syndrone!) I would find it difficult to cope with just 5 poles. In my town the plots are even smaller. Now you have given me figures I can probably work out exactly how little land people in our town have and use it to harrangue our stupid, lazy town council.
I am sorted for growing land but we have loads who have been waiting for years.

in our association there are plenty of folk who keep hens on a 10 rod plot,  (hen run can only be 20 sq yards max)  ;)

Quote from: tonybloke on January 15, 2010, 20:06:47
in our association there are plenty of folk who keep hens on a 10 rod plot,  (hen run can only be 20 sq yards max)  ;)

Yes, but if you want to keep the hens on grass and to free range standards you could only keep 2 hens on that (10 sq yards/hen)

you want to comply with all of this? http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/welfare/onfarm/documents/pb6490.pdf

On a small scale you can easily exceed those welfare standards. On the size of flocks that are allowed many of the chickens don't actually free range as far as intended. Hens are far happier in smaller sized flocks and more likely to make fuller use of the available land.
If you are selling surplus eggs then you have to adhere to the EU standards for free range if selling them as such (a lot don't). However if anyone complains then you have trading standards breathing down your neck.

Quote from: Geoff H on January 15, 2010, 23:03:12
On a small scale you can easily exceed those welfare standards. On the size of flocks that are allowed many of the chickens don't actually free range as far as intended. Hens are far happier in smaller sized flocks and more likely to make fuller use of the available land.
If you are selling surplus eggs then you have to adhere to the EU standards for free range if selling them as such (a lot don't). However if anyone complains then you have trading standards breathing down your neck.

we don't allow selling of produce from our sites, they are for providing foof for your immediate family, not as a business!!

According to the Allotment Acts, produce from allotments cannot be sold to support a business, but there should be no objection to the occasional sale of surplus produce that is not for commercial purposes.

On top of that, there is no law against allotment associations selling produce! If surplus can be donated, this potentially be can be a useful source of additional income. We haven't got anything set up yet, but this is purely because the shop we were planning to work with closed, and we have not yet found an alternative.

Quote from: RW on January 16, 2010, 00:11:47
According to the Allotment Acts, produce from allotments cannot be sold to support a business, but there should be no objection to the occasional sale of surplus produce that is not for commercial purposes.

how do you equate selling something to not being commerce?

Imagine,................... you rent some land at agricultural rent, to grow and supply local folk with fresh fruit and veg. you rent a small shop in locall high street, employ some-one to run shop, start paying rates, bills, etc....................
and them some ( * ) starts selling produce from their allotment, (against the spirit of allotments)  taking your custom......... Go Figure!!

Tony, the allotments act prescribes that an allotment garden is mainly for the cultivation of fruit and veg to feed to the allotmenteer's family, and so it doesn't specifically prohibit the sale of surplus - if it is genuinely surplus and the plot is being used mainly for fruit and veg for the family.  What an allotmenteer does with her surplus has nothing to do with the allotment landlord, so she can certainly sell it if she wants to.  Of course if you start using your plot to grow a whole bunch of stuff to sell so that it's no longer mainly used for fruit and veg for your family then the allotment authority would be obliged to stop you if it let the allotment under the act.

in the past we had a chap who used to grow 20 rod of mono-crop per year, (in rotation) sprouts in time for x-mas, one yr, leeks another, and so on!! ( he's not a plot-holder any more ) I appreciate that a 'glut' can happen, and some stuff is usually given away to friends, neighbours, etc,  but I think the selling of produce 'goes against the grain' (and the spirit) of allotmenteering. If you grow too much of any one crop, then don't plant so much next year!! ( 1st year allotmenteers and courgettes spring to mind  ;D ;D) If you keep growing too much produce, perhaps a smaller plot would suit?  ;)

Couldn't agree more Tony.  There'll always be surplus of the odd thing, but the decent thing to do is give it away, but Robert is talking about the association selling donated surplus and that sounds reasonable, especially if it donated some of the proceeds to a charity.

But even if you don't sell your surplus eggs then a lot of people would want to comply with the free range standard as the main reason a lot of people are going into chicken keeping is that they want to give the chickens that produce their eggs a good existence. And if they also want to rear a few for the table......
All this is another reason why I am sticking with my private allotment. I can sell as much as I want. It started with just plants (I( do unusual perennials) but now its vegetables and hopefully eggs and honey.

The committee are off to the town hall to give the full council a piece of our mind.  They backed down on the £25/pole, but still imposed a 47% increase.  They're trying to reduce the subsidy, but it turns out - and none of the councillors actually bothered to ask - but it turns out that £44k of the £50k subsidy is down to administration - the council have the same number of staff as Birmingham City Council who administer 20 times the number of sites.

They've been fobbing us of for more than two years because the tenants wants to be involved but the council won't have any of it, but we've had enough now and we're demanding they talk to us about self-management because £25/pole will keep coming up now and it's outrageous.

We've also asked them to suspend the 47% increase or else we'll have to make that complaint to Trading Standards.

I read about this in the local Newbury Press the other day when waiting at the Honda garage... i was horrified.  It did seem they are trying to reduce the waiting list by increasing costs...  It will make a mokery of the purpose of allotments - a way for everyone to grow their own food.  £250 will only be in the league of the wealthy.  It will not make any produce economic to grow.

Sounds like their costs are way too high.

£250/year for a 10 pole plot is madness.

I used to be on a self managed site at Abingdon, when i lived in Oxfordshire a few years ago.  I used to drive 7 miles to it as it was better than the council run sites.  I cannot remeber what I paid, but it was something like £10 a year for 10 poles...

Cheers Mat.  It'll all end in tears unfortunately.  The council brushed us off but feelings are running high and we're not going to take any more of their crapola.  We're in the middle of a deep recession, inflation is pretty much zero, and people are losing their jobs, but Newbury Town Council hike up the tax bill by 6%, which might be OK if they were spending our hard-earned tax money on creating new allotment sites for the 100+ people already on the waiting list, but they're not, they're spending it at the rate of £79 per plot just to administer the sites they already have - that's £50k, about 6% of the tax bill - and because they're so hopelessly inefficient they're not going to create any new sites because it will cost them too much money.

And we've told them that we can save them £50k if they let us help but they wiggle their finger in their ears and say we can't hear you.  But we'll make them hear.

can someone get the local TV news involved?... talk to the press?... give some facts... amazing what can happen then...   May be good to talk in total costs (e.g. the average size is 10 pole (or whatever it is on your site) and this will cost £250/year...

£25 doesn't sound much, to those who don't know how large allotments are...  they may think thats all you pay...

The protest is building momentum nicely now.  We talking to various media and over the coming weeks we'll be getting the word out.

We've put the complaint into Trading Standards now as well.  We asked the council to suspend the increase pending this but they blew us off - they said the Regulations didn't apply because we can quit our plots at any time - man, should they ever had read the tenancy agreement!

I'm getting responses back from other councils now about their costs.  Wantage Town Council charge half the rent that Newbury charge and manage to run their allotment sites with zero subsidy, and they have been creating new plots so the town doesn't have a waiting list.

Hi UW

I have phoned Wantage and they told me something different to how you have interpreted it  ? :(

They have a waiting list and don't do anything to the site at all  :-[

Their rate is £3-33 for about 1.5 pole and £6.00 for a large pole.

If your rate is £4-71   ???  how can they be cheaper  ???

Who pays to cut your main paths, hedges. Who pays for control of rats, water rates, fencing etc. Do you get reminders to pay for your allotment ?

All this would be an added benefit and cost that you don't have to pay. :o

VW

UW, you really need to get NSALG involved. they can negotiate between the council and your association (and help you set one up if you haven't already)then the council will be ablr to slash the cost of proivision, 'because the asociationj will do most of the work. 'simples' ;)

Tony, the council don't want to slash their costs.  We have an association, we keep asking them to talk to us.  They won't.

istill reckon you should speak to geoff or bryn at http://www.nsalg.org.uk/

Quote from: vegwise on January 23, 2010, 15:52:05
Hi UW

I have phoned Wantage and they told me something different to how you have interpreted it  ? :(

They have a waiting list and don't do anything to the site at all  :-[

Their rate is £3-33 for about 1.5 pole and £6.00 for a large pole.

If your rate is £4-71   ???  how can they be cheaper  ???

Who pays to cut your main paths, hedges. Who pays for control of rats, water rates, fencing etc. Do you get reminders to pay for your allotment ?

All this would be an added benefit and cost that you don't have to pay. :o

VW

vegwise, you so conspicuously fail to engage with the substantive issue that I wonder you're not a member of Newbury Town Council.  Or close family at least. ;)

Anywho, I'm much obliged to you for the excuse to repeat my criticism of Newbury Town Council's appaling inefficiency and arrogance in spending my tax money.  Here's the response I had from Wantage Town Council:

Quote
Thank you for your request for information concerning allotments. It is broadly the Council's aim that allotments should be a net nil cost to it. The annual income is just of £2,100 per annum and the direct costs are in the region of £1,750 per annum. The staff cost to support is about 30 hours per annum at a cost in the region of £350. Councillors themselves put a fair bit of effort into inspecting allotments but receive no payment for it. The Town Council has 5 sites with space for 180 plots. Currently 150 are let. The Town Council has a duty under the Allotment Acts to provide allotments but as indicated, its aim is that the costs should be fully recovered from the tenants.

With 150 of their 180 plots let I've infered that they don't have a waiting list.  There are more that 100 people on the Newbury Town Council waiting list.

With income of £2,100 from 150 plots I can see that the average cost of a plot in Wantage is £14.  The average cost of a plot in Newbury is £28, from an above-average rate of £4.71.

For each plot Newbury Town Council spend £30.68 on planned and un-planned maintenance.  That's double the bill from a few years ago.  I was happy to cut the grass on the main path, clear out the ditches, and lay and gap-up my bit of hedge.  The Council changed the rules so even if I wanted to I'm not allowed to help.  I've been down to the Council several times now to formally invite the council to involve the tenants in the maintenance of the site because it would generate a great sense of community - and save a bunch of cash too - but the Council refuse to discuss the possibility.  Odd, don't you think?

The water bill takes care of £4.29 of my rent.

Rodent control costs £3.29, though we've never had a rodent problem at Wash Common so this is a waste of money.  The bait is also left down permanently which is a totally unsustainable way of dealing with rodents, and it's this that made Newbury one of the first places in the country to develop second-generation anti-coagulant immune super rats.  And they don't look for carcasses, so they're contributing to the secondary poisoning of the wildlife, abd even though it violates the pesticides regulations they don't look regularly and thoroughly for carcasses, because they say they can't afford to.  I'd rather they didn't put poison down at all.

Now pay attention, because this is important.  Newbury Town Council spend £73.23 on administration.  So that's basically sending out the bills.

So whereas Wantage run their allotment service at zero nett cost, Newbury Town Council subsidise their service to the tune of £50k, and £41k is blown on administration.  And the Council wanted to saddle the allotmenteers with that bill by increasing rents to £25/pole.

£73 .23p on admin?? that's bl**dy good value to the local rate-payers!! ought to be up for a prize of some sort!!  ;)

Quote from: tonybloke on January 23, 2010, 23:42:51
£73 .23p on admin?? that's bl**dy good value to the local rate-payers!! ought to be up for a prize of some sort!!  ;)

per plot unfortunately... I was thinking of moving to Newbury, but this is insane.... I'll be getting 15 poles (or so) on a site at Oxford this year, (my current 10 and another 5 for a mixture of polytunnel, cold-frames and squashes) adn it'll cost me 25 quid total. The council don't spend a lot on our site, from memory we're talking about a few hundred quid plus admin, and the site com,mittee sort out sending out letters adn collection of fees etc..... 15 poles in Newbury now would be 70 quid plus..... that's everythign I spend on seeds as well as most of my shop-bought compost......

chrisc

15 poles in Newbury would now cost you £104.10, and while you pay that the newbury tax payer is stung for another £253 to pay for £232 worth of administration, and £97 of maintenance.

Quote from: vegwise
Their rate is £3-33 for about 1.5 pole and £6.00 for a large pole.

If your rate is £4-71   Huh  how can they be cheaper  Huh

Have you worked it out yet?  Wantage's rate is £2.22/pole, and that's les than Newbury's rate of £4.71/pole. ;)

Our campaign is building:  see here in the Newbury Weekly News (http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/News/Article.aspx?articleID=12237).

Interesting that the council say it will cost 61p per week for a plot.  Makes it sound so cheap when they put it that way.
Good luck with your campaign.

Hi UW
I know you reply to these posts late at night and you are a bit tired and, grumpy however please don't make assumptions and you could try to be less unpleasant / patronising in your replies?

First of all I have NOT conspicuously failed to engage with the 'substantive' issues. Now pay attention and try to keep awake as this is important, I am NOT the slightest bit interested in unverified hear say. ;)

On my last post about Wantage rates I had a UW moment ( From no waiting list to a waiting list) and missed out some information, which now makes their plots £2-22 per pole, sorry about that. ;)

I feel a Black Sabbath song springs to mind 'Paranoid'  :)

VW

so, you both agree that wantage's rent is £2.20 per pole!! Yay!! :)

Tony, I seem to have snagged a troll, so I'm using the ignore button.

My letter in the Newbury Weekly News today:

Dear Sir

The Wash Common Allotment Society is dismayed at the Town Council's 47% allotment rent increase.  We've seen a 90% real-terms increase in rents since 2003 and having found out how the money is being spent we're utterly appalled at the Council's inefficiency.

Rental income hardly covers 20% of the service cost so with the burden of a £50k subsidy being shouldered by the tax-payer we completely sympathize with the need for change, but £41k of the service cost is administration. It's an outrageous amount, equivalent to £73 per plot, for work that an allotment society could do for a couple of quid.  Comparable councils like Wantage Town Council manage to run their allotment service without a subsidy, and their plots cost half that of Newbury, so our Council is getting something seriously wrong.

The maintenance bill alone is almost half as much again as the rental income. The Society has several times asked the Council to involve the tenants in the site maintenance, and yet they refuse.  Our membership survey reveals that 90% of our members want to help out, but the Council even changed the Rules to prevent this.  We find this perverse in the extreme.

Working with the tenants is key. We enjoy the challenge and responsibility, the tax bill is kept under control, and the Council can then afford to open up new sites to accommodate the hundred-odd residents who are currently sitting on the waiting list.

We urge the Council to suspend the rent increase and embrace the Society, for the benefit of the allotmenteers and the Newbury tax payer.

Seems someone has taken over your avatar UW.

Been following this with interest. 

Does the freedom of information mean you can require the council to give details of precisely what the admin covers?  It seems wrong that you are being asked to fund their inefficiency and their unwillingness to allow volunteers to take over some of the work.

Seems odd that they continue to refuse to talk to your association. 

From article

QuoteIn reply, the deputy leader of the council, Julian Swift-Hook (Lib Dem, Pyle Hill), said he could not make a commitment on behalf of the council to meet with the society,

What a funny way of saying he refuses to talk to you.  So much for democracy.

QuoteInsert Quote
Seems someone has taken over your avatar UW.

I think the avatar they are using now is an image of some loser who blew his head off? ;)

Quote from: Digeroo on January 29, 2010, 08:03:00
Does the freedom of information mean you can require the council to give details of precisely what the admin covers?

If they have recorded that level of detail anywhere then yes, FoI gives anyone a right to see it.

Hi Unwashed,

How many people out of the plots at your site are in your association, if you speak for the vast majority they will be more willing to listen to you.

How many other tenants are in an association out of the total number for all the other sites in your area, will they join in ?

Vegwise

(http://www.emilyware.co.uk/wcas/images/stories/articles/allotmentrentleaguetable.jpg)

Here's a graphic of the cost of a ten pole plot in boroughs like Newbury.

Newbury Town Councillors refuse to address the issue.  They do, however, visit A4A *waves*.

Allotment rents up 47%, precept up 7%, some of the most expensive council plots in the country, council administration running at £73/plot, an allotment society that's asking to be allowed to help.

It's frustrating, but it appears to be very difficult to hold them to account.

Anywho, I've had a look at my tenancy agreement.  It says:

The rent will be revisable every year.

So I've revised it.  I've served notice on the council that my rent next year will be £1. and I'll give the other £46.20 that I feel I should be charged to Thrive.

Quote from: Unwashed on February 05, 2010, 20:58:34
Anywho, I've had a look at my tenancy agreement.  It says:

The rent will be revisable every year.

So I've revised it.  I've served notice on the council that my rent next year will be £1. and I'll give the other £46.20 that I feel I should be charged to Thrive.

That's brilliant!  Do let us know if you get a reply.

Err, yes, I might need to borrow a bit of allotment too. :'(

Just received the bill for this year and it is £19-80 for a 200 sq metre plot.

Smaller plots are pro-rata and pensioners (like me ) get theirs for half price.

What we get for this is a Communal hut, Communal 40ft x 15 poly-tunnel ( only 5 of us use it!) a key to the gate, and a water stand pipe per two/three  plots.

That's a sweet deasl TeeGee.

My local councillors continue to ignore my request for dialogue, but I see they've popped in again for a nosey about so:

Tenants at another of the Newbury allotment sites have been complaining that the council officers park their cars in the allotment car park.  It's a fair point.  A season ticket to park in Newbury costs £900 and there's five (I think) officers that park daily at the allotments.  The Council raised an extra £5.9k with a 47% increase in our rents, so here's an idea - charge the officers £900 a piece to park in the allotments - that would raise £4.5k

Hi Unwashed,

You appear to be good with facts and figures about your council.

However are these figures and facts correct,

1)You only have 32 members out of 140 on your site?
2)You only have 32 members out of possible 330 – 450 other tenants?
3)Are you speaking on behalf of your 35 members or yourself? :'(


Tenants at another of the Newbury allotment sites have been complaining that the council officers park their cars in the allotment car park.  It's a fair point.  A season ticket to park in Newbury costs £900 and there's five (I think) officers that park daily at the allotments.  The Council raised an extra £5.9k with a 47% increase in our rents, so here's an idea - charge the officers or unwashed £900 a piece to park in the allotments / car park - that would raise £4.5k / £900-00 :(


4)Where you turned down by the council for free/cheap parking in a car park? ;)

I won't hold my breath for a reply?

VW

My council are going to discuss two issues on Monday night.

Quote8. Question Raised at Full Council by Julian Cabell (WCAS)

To discuss the question raised at Council by WCAS member Julian Cabell on 18 January 2010 and deferred to Community Services Committee:

"For every allotment plot the Council spend £79 on administration; that's £44k of the £50k subsidy.  Birmingham City Council administers 114 sites (10 times the plots that Newbury has) with the same number of staff that Newbury administers its six sites.  For comparison commercial out-sourced administration costs £7 per plot, and self-managed sites administer their plots for around £2 per plot, and self-management can slash the maintenance budget also.  Newbury's allotmenteers will not be saddled with this Council's inefficiency and self-management is the answer.

Mr Mayor, we have lobbied for two years for action and nothing has happened - will you now commit a minimum of four Councillors to meet with us urgently to seriously investigate the benefits of both self-management and outsourcing to realise significant cost savings for the council?"

and

Quote
11. Wash Common Allotment Society 

Officers and Councillors have been in discussion with the reformed Wash Common Allotment Society.  The Society has asked Council to consider the following Recognition Agreement:

"Preamble: The Council recognise the Wash Common Allotment Society as the democratic, representative site association at Wash Common Allotments.  The Council support the role of the Society in empowering the community of allotmenteers at Wash Common and will work in partnership with the Society to deliver the Council's Local Agenda 21 and Best Value policy commitments.

The Council will:
1. Give serious consideration to the Society's requests. Protocol: The Society will make an initial request to the Services Manager who may decide the request or else escalate it either to the Chief Executive Officer or Community Services Committee for decision.  The Services Manager and Chair of the Community Services Committee will support the Society where necessary in refining the request and preparing any supporting documentation.  The Society will always be pleased to work with any Councillor that takes an interest, and this will be arranged through the Services Manager.
2. Consult the site through the Society on matters that may affect members.
3. Inform the Society in good time of proposed changes to the site, and involve the Society in decisions that may affect the site".

The constitution of the society can be found here (http://www.emilyware.co.uk/wcas/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=53).

Officers support the constitution, and to continue the positive relationship, recommend that the Recognition Agreement is adopted.

The Council was not pleased when we formed the Society and in two and a half years they have not warmed to the idea that we have a legitimate right to organise, and a legitimate right to criticise them and hold them to account.  I hadn't thought to ask for self-management initially, but I'm convinced now that the Council will never play nice and that the only way to involve the allotmenteers and improve the site is through self-management.  Of course, £50k is quite a gravy-train for the Council and there's way too much self-interest to ever let this happen.  Whatever the result on Monday, nothing will have changed in 12 months time.

I would have thought that saving money, when budgets are VERY tight would help them make their minds up!  What are your local press saying - have you got them involved?

There's no incentive for the Council to save money.  If they need more they just put the precept up - it went up 7% this year.  Newbury is affluent so a lot of tenants really aren't bothered if the rents go up, and they're even less bothered about the folk who can't afford the increase.  This is from the council letter that went round with the bill:

Quote
We do hope you continue to enjoy and benefit from your allotment.  If you wish, you do have the option to terminate your tenancy from 31 March 2010, without notice, but we sincerely hope that you don't feel that is necessary.

ie, if you can't afford it, tough!

The local paper has published our letter protesting the rent increase and asking the council to talk to us but it's not really a campaigning paper.

Kick the council where it hurts, in the ballot box. Sadly it is often the only way to be heard. Bear in mind that it is easier to campaign to stop something than it is to implement something new.

OC

Early last year, possibly a bit before on here, there was a link to an an article of a MP who is a budding allotmenteer who supports and fights for everything to do with allotments for his constituency and the nation.  If you can find this link I am sure he will get on side with you.  (Best do it quick in case he is a labour MP;  he may not have his seat after May..... 8))

The Council unanimously refused both to recognize the Society and to meet with us to discuss self-management.  With a disturbing amount of conviction they said that while I had anything to do with the Society there would be no recognition because I had "slagged them off" in the press and on the Society web site.  Everything I've said is here (http://www.emilyware.co.uk/wcas/) if you're interested.

That graph of rents in neighbouring boroughs seems to have pushed them over the edge because they keep refering to it as misinformation but they refuse to say what's not accurate about it.

So much for freedom of speach and freedom of association.

Chair of the Council Committee, Cllr Arthur Johnson is a member of A4A so perhaps you can all invite him to address the issues, because he refuses to talk to me.  See if he'll tell you why the committee voted for a 47% increase in rent to make Newbury one of the most expensive council sites in the country without any of them asking what the going rate was, or how the money was being spent, because he refused to answer me.

Have you asked for more information about what the money spent on allotments is actually being spent on.  After all if they have no information about the costs of running the allotment they should have. 

According to their website the net cost of allotments in 2007 was £8192.  Unfortunately that is that last date online perhaps they have later details in library. 

They publish more current accounts attached to the agenda of the Policy and Resources Committee, but that only details the direct costs, the indirect costs are not available anywhere I can find.  However, they published some service costs with last year's council tax bill and from that I worked out the service cost was £63k, and knowing the direct costs were £22k I could infer that the admin costs were £41k, and the council have confirmed that.  It's difficult to understand where that money goes and they refuse to explain.  Rents currently generates £12.5k

I think what's made them so angry with me is that ordinarily no one would have gone ferriting about and discovered the service cost, and certainly no one would have dared to criticise them publicly for it.

It was never our intention to embarrass the council, but when we were told of the plans for a £25 rate and what we believe to be an unlawful increase for current tenants we wrote to the council privately to tell them of our concerns, but the councillors ignored us.  We told them we'd have no option but to go to Trading Standards and this just angered them more - we'd been warned previously that the councillors wouldn't cooperate with us if we made that complaint.  So we've complained to Trading Standards and we wrote to the local paper to complain about the unjustifiable increase in rents on the basis that their admin costs were out of control, especially as we'd been asking for a couple of years to be allowed to get involved in the maintenance and the council had refused to consider it.

Funily enough the Leader of the Council, Ivor Sheldon, is not so bullish in the paper today about why he proposed that the council refuse to recognise our allotment society.  At the council meeting he was very clear:  "because I had slagged off the council in the press and on the web site", but he doesn't mention that today, he only talks about the Society's Aims and Objects being unacceptable.  That's kind of odd, because in the late Autumn we had a meeting with the council where they considered our Constitution and they only asked us to change one single word, which we were happy to do to accomodate them.  But now the Constitution is unacceptable?

These are our Aims and Objects.  What do you think?

Quote
2. Objects.
a) To promote the interests of members in their gardening activities and to take joint action for the benefit and protection of members.
b) To promote allotment gardening, and the sharing of knowledge about gardening and allotment-management in order to promote success in our allotmenteering.

3. Aims.
a) To establish and maintain a democratically elected and representative Committee of Management to facilitate and develop the Objects.
b) To encourage the council to cooperate enthusiastically and openly with the Society to realize fair and reasonable requests of the Society.
c) To encourage the council to consult the site through the Society on all matters that may affect members and to give serious, fair and honest consideration to the opinion of the Society.
d) To encourage the council to inform the Society in good time of any proposed changes to the site and involve the Society in decisions that may affect the site.
e) To encourage the council to respect our members' ownership of their individual plots, and their notional ownership of the site as a whole, and to encourage the council to treat members fairly and equally.
f) To sell seeds, fertilizers, tools and other horticultural equipment to members, and to arrange lectures, film shows, demonstrations, competitions and other social events, by ourselves and in cooperation with other organisations.
g) To foster community on site, and foster cooperation between sites and other organisation.

Get that info in the local rag and embarass them!

This is from our constitution:-

Objectives


As you can see, the local authority is only mentioned once, in 3.

I wonder if you might have frightened your council by clearly setting out your expections of them?
 
I'm not saying that what you expect is wrong, it isn't, but when it's spelt out like that you might be giving them more things to object to. 

This is just my opinion, and is coloured by the fact that we have not had any problems with our council.  I wouldn't like to be living in your council area.  :(

Betty, your association's aims and objects is a lot less 'confrontational' in it's wording, and although it has the same deep down meanings as Simon's association's, your  ones would (and have) been easier for a council to accept, and even encourage.  ;)

You're right Tony.  But what do you do when your council actively doesn't want to consult, inform or involve its tenants and would very much prefer that its tenants didn't organise themselves so that it could behave exactly how it wants, lawful or otherwise?  In a nutshell, they are only prepared to tolerate a site association that never questions or criticises anything they do.

Simon, I've just had a thought  ;)

In Birmingham we have the Birmingham and District Allotments Council

(BDAC) http://www.bdacallotments.btik.com/p_2.ikml

I'm sure you have already looked into whether there is anything similar in your area, but if there isn't, couldn't one be set up?

I don't know how long ours has been in existence, but the Chairman is very helpful and I'm sure he would answer any questions you may have.

It's just a thought, I get them sometimes........

Quote from: Squash64 on March 04, 2010, 21:48:43
It's just a thought, I get them sometimes........

:)

There's nothing like that.  I proposed one, and the Council suppressed it.

Here's the resignation letter from one of the other delegates:

Quote
Further to our conversation yesterday, I feel that this group has yet to embrace the principles enshrined in the Growing in the Community manifesto which purports to inform it: for example, the wider issues of sustainability, food miles, peak oil, healthy eating, Food for Life, community empowerment and the formation of allotment associations and devolution of management of allotment sites.  It is as yet without locus or constitution and has never fully recovered from it's dramatic derailment by Cllrs ******** and ******** which resulted in Simon Kirby leaving the group and my formal complaint to the Community Services Committee.  Without a proper committment to the Growing in the Community document from a wide range of councillors I doubt whether this group will ever become more than a talking shop on the local minutiae of allotment issues.

Furthermore, it is doubtful whether a Town Council which in a time of economic recession has unilaterally and without warning increased allotment rents by 47%, with a promise of further increases to come, which seeks to shift the administrative burden of running amenities onto individual tenants (while increasing its precept by 7% and retaining an unused slush fund of £8,000 in its staffing budget) and which has seriously considered a whopping charge of £250 per annum to new tenants in order to reduce waiting lists, has fully comprehended its responsibilities under the Allotment Acts.  The Growing in the Community initiative contains much about enabling vulnerable, disadvantaged and low income families to have a positive and healthy relationship with the environment and a connection with the food they eat, and not merely about providing sites for middle-class hobby gardeners. There is so much in the document to provide opportunity for Newbury to become a 21st century town of green growth and community involvement, but in the two years or so that we have been meeting, our local council has failed to recognise this, if indeed any of its members have read it.

Talk to these people

http://www.lgo.org.uk/ (http://www.lgo.org.uk/)

Thanks weequinie, and welcome to A4A.  Unfortunately town councils are a law unto themselves so a judicial review is the only higher authority.  There's the Standards Board that might possibly take action against councillors if they considered that my Human Rights were violated when they refused to recognise the Society while I was in it because I had criticised them publicly, but it doesn't have a great reputation for taking action.

UW, have a word with nsalg.
welcome to the forum, weequinie

The local government ombudsman is a very blunt knife.  I once took Gloucestershire to ombudsman on a matter totally unrelated to allotments.  Various recommendations were made but the council refused to accept the recommendations and there was nothing I could do about it. 

It involved a problem caused by a council employee.  When the matter was investigated the same employee investigated the matter.  My point was that whatever the outcome that the perpetrator of a problem should not then be the judge on the matter.  Of course that person will find in their own favour.  Yet the council refused to adjust their future procedures even when recommended by the ombudsman that their procedures were faulty. 

So give this a try but do not hold your breathe for a sensible outcome.

Unwashed, this may be of interest,  http://www.hmg.gov.uk/frontlinefirst.aspx

Thanks for the welcomes.

Unwashed I can think of a few possibilities. Number 1 is do nothing, easy option but maybe not for you  ;) Number 2 is take the council through whatever full complaints process applies right to the top. Denying other people an association becuase of some kind of personal vendetta against you is not how councils are supposed to behave. They may cave when they realise youre serious. Number 3 is ask for a mediation process with the council and see if differences can be resolved. Number 4 is step aside and let someone else be the figurehead while you direct in the background. Tone down the objects to be untheatening. Make getting an assocation, any association the top priority. Once youve got it, change is easier.

It's all just guff Tony.  I can't help feeling that all politicians, national and local, are self-serving toe-rags.  If national government wants to help then it can give allotment associations the power to assume responsibility for council services.  And how about giving associations the right to compulsorily rent land for allotments, because local councils sure aren't doing their duty.

I'm going to pass on the NSALG.  I'm so angry with Newbury Town Council.  I've done constructive, I'm just going to be difficult now.

A member here helpfully suggested that I ask for a breakdown of the council's indirect costs.  I don't have complete information yet, but it looks like the true cost of the allotment service in Newbury is much worse than they published.  If you include the council overheads in the service cost it looks like the allotment service costs the newbury tax-payer £107k, and not £50k.  That's for 560 plots.  And it takes a bit over 1.5 council staff to directly administer the service, though that doesn't include the support staff - so that's over 5 hours admin per plot.  I can see why they get so pissed with me when I ask questions.

Thanks weequinie.  That's good advice.  I've done 4. already, but the council still recognize me as the ringleader.  If I get tired of the fight I might have to take 1., but it's really not an option as I'll just get bullied if I quit before the end.  Received wisdom on other sites is not to criticise the council and to submit absolutely to their will, but they're treated no better than we are so all that does is give the council an easy ride.  Actually what I'd like is for everyone else to tell the council that we're not going to take any more of their crapola, but mostly people don't seem that bothered by crapola.  I'm obviously crapola-intolerant.

Quote from: Unwashed on March 05, 2010, 21:24:55
  I'm obviously crapola-intolerant.

Yeah me too. Have you been to your MPs walkin clinic? Maybe bad timing tho if theyre getting the shove on 6 may.

No, I haven't tried that.  I wrote to the opposition candidate, but didn't hear back.

Give it a go then, nothing to lose have you? From your other posts sounds like theyre trying to bully you. There are bullies in all walks of life, on here as Ive found, on councils as youve found. Stand firm for whats right and dont let them win.

(http://www.emilyware.co.uk/wcas/images/stories/articles/thomasprotest.jpg)

Spent a couple of hours protesting outside the Town Hall this morning with Thomas on a placard.

Love it, hope you invited the local press!!!

What happened?  Did it raise much interest?

No press this week, but there'll be plenty of opportunity.

Hi Betty, I got to speak to a couple of folk from other sites.  There were plenty of councillors about and they got the message.  I'm anticipating it being a long campaign though.

I love the poster - perhaps you could make one up of the Fat Controller
Good luck Unwashed!

And welcome to A4A weequinie   ;D

Another morning protesting outside the Town Hall.  The Newbury Weekly News covered the protest so I'll have my picture in the paper next week.

(http://www.emilyware.co.uk/wcas/images/stories/articles/administration%20protest.jpg)

Keep bashing away, simon. there's bound to be some sort of election coming up, they might take notice then!! ;)

Quote from: Unwashed on March 13, 2010, 12:44:24
Another morning protesting outside the Town Hall.

Good for you!! Have you got other people supporting you? If youre the sole voice speaking out ab out whats not right its too easy for the *powers that be* to write you off as some kind of crank (or troll LOL!!!!!) and ignore you. Is your site behind you, other sites in the same position? 

Hi weequinie

I have a couple of supporters, but essentially it's a one-man protest.  My Society Committee meet tomorrow night so they might yet decide to organise a protest, but it looks unlikely.  The only other site association on the council's allotments are very much opposed to my protest.

Maybe that makes me a crank, I can't say.

I'm disappointed that people are prepared to put up with such unfairness, but in truth the average plot holder doesn't want to help with the site maintenance, isn't overly bothered if she isn't consulted on changes to the rules, doesn't particularly want to socialise on site, can afford a substantial rent increase, and can't be asked if the council pick on her plot neighbours.  She might just possibly not agree with everything the council do on site, but likely as not she doesn't believe it's any of her business and is frankly appalled at the thought of directly challenging the establishment.  All things being equal the few tenants who do get excited about some rule or other are already in the reactionary middle-english curtain-twitching clique who can already influence the rules and so are positively opposed to any kind of democratization that might weaken their personal control.

On the other hand, I believe that society is better if people are involved, so I want everyone on site to have an equal say in any change, and I want everyone to have an equal opportunity to get involved in the maintenance and administration, and although they might not want to initially, I believe they will want to be involved eventually given enough opportunity and encouragement.  I also insist that as a minimum the council need to behave fairly and lawfully, and if they won't I'm going to shout about it, and if they can't take criticism, well, that's their problem.

Wasnt suggesting youre a crank, just that its easy for officialdom to dismiss a voice in the wilderness. Its great youre trying. If brave people hadnt spoken up for whats right there would still be slavery and children down the pits and no votes for women. Isnt there some kind of carrot you can dangle for plotholders to bring them along like something your site needs that you could get if you had control of your destiny? A toilet or a community hut  or somesuch whatever presses their buttons?