They are all shouting about peoples rights and DNA should not be kept if you have not been found guilty of a crime. What about the rights of the people who are going to have a crime done to them because the perpetrator can easily hide away.
Sexual crimes, these are mostly against women and children and can be solved very quickly if the police can access DNA records. Also these types of attacks will decrease drastically if there was a data base of everyone. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about. I know this sounds very big brother, but I cannot see any sense in the civil rights people shouting no.
Tell that to the Guilford Four... or the "Birmingham Pub Bombers" who didn't do it but the police "found" evidence to convict. If your DNA is planted at a crime scene most juries would convict... and sadly sometimes it is more expedient to frame someone than solve a crime... :-X
Tell it to the Guildford one! I wouldn't have a problem with everyone being on it, I do have a problem with me (having been found not guilty) being on it and a huge number of convicted criminals not being on it! Why should I be treated differently to other innocent people?
Records are not always correct. My daughter was a witness to an incident. Some time after she got a call asking why she had not appeared in court on a shop lifting charge. They had muddled up the records of two people with the same name.
Quote from: ACE on November 11, 2009, 18:45:16
They are all shouting about peoples rights and DNA should not be kept if you have not been found guilty of a crime. What about the rights of the people who are going to have a crime done to them because the perpetrator can easily hide away.
Sexual crimes, these are mostly against women and children and can be solved very quickly if the police can access DNA records. Also these types of attacks will decrease drastically if there was a data base of everyone. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about. I know this sounds very big brother, but I cannot see any sense in the civil rights people shouting no.
You're also assuming that they can keep it properly. The government's record on databases isn't exactly flawless is it?
And as for the 'If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about', I'm speechless. :(
And ... its something else 'they' could leave on the train.
It would have made life so much easier for the SS in Nazi Germany.
I don't see how a national DNA database is anything but a good thing. It's a bugger if you're a criminal, obviously, but if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear.
So is it fair for me to be on it and you not to be, unwashed?
Quote from: Unwashed on November 11, 2009, 21:18:15
I don't see how a national DNA database is anything but a good thing. It's a bugger if you're a criminal, obviously, but if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear.
???? Erm, planting evidence at a scene, mixing up evidence, losing evidence, I would fear all of that but I have nothing to hide!
Quote from: reddyreddy on November 11, 2009, 21:31:06
Quote from: Unwashed on November 11, 2009, 21:18:15
I don't see how a national DNA database is anything but a good thing. It's a bugger if you're a criminal, obviously, but if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear.
???? Erm, planting evidence at a scene, mixing up evidence, losing evidence, I would fear all of that but I have nothing to hide!
It frightens me witless..... :-X
No, it's not fair Ollie. Either we're all on it, or else just the actual crims.
Saddad, reddyreddy, yes, there's always the chance of a miscarriage of justice, but a DNA database doesn't make that any more likely. But it does put away some evil scroats that otherwise get away free.
Quote from: saddad on November 11, 2009, 21:40:33
It frightens me witless..... :-X
Ditto!
My criminal record was clear, as was my credit reference file, until a certain government agency issued a petty criminal with my NI number! That error took two years & 100's of hours of work (on my part) to resolve! Given such ineptitude at basic record keeping I'm uncomfortable with the 'powers that be' holding any of my personal info.
If a dumb computer can screw a person's life up to such an extent, I dread to think what could happen when the human factor is introduced. :(
~~~
Unwashed, I don't mean to sound antagonistic, but I must ask, how qualified are you to comment on the intricacies of database security? In an ideal world all the information gathered would be 100% secure, but we don't live in such a world & any machine programmed by humans can be hacked/cracked by humans.
Ten myths about Britain's National DNA Database.
http://reclaimyourdna.org/further-information/ten-myths-about-the-national-dna-database/
Quote from: Baccy Man on November 11, 2009, 22:08:25
Ten myths about Britain's National DNA Database.
http://reclaimyourdna.org/further-information/ten-myths-about-the-national-dna-database/
Well non of that make me think differently. If I was inadvertently mismatched I can prove were I have been because even in this far off outpost of civilisation I am on a security camera 95% of the time I am not at home and all the tracking devices on my phones/computors/vehicles etc wiil make up the shortfall.
But like I say 'I have nothing to worry about and these same devices are protecting me and my family.
I did like the bit about even with more dna on their data bases there are still the same amount of crimes solved.
Perhaps the people who are on the data base have realised they won't get away with it. There are not so many crimes to solve.
I used to think if you were innocent you had nothing to hide, but sadly the incompetence and statistic/figure chasing coppers throw that theory out the window. I read Ollie c experience and it makes you wonder.Innocent people get dragged into stuff and honesty disappears.SHAME
Not so long a go a passager spat in my face,his DNA put him behind bars.
A good use, and a good result... we aren't against using DNA evidence, we just doubt the value of retaining "innocent" people's....
I think everyone has something to worry about, whether they have done something wrong or not.
I had an electrician in the house yesterday, his DNA is all over the place, where he was checking connections and taking ligtht fittings apart. Not to mention the teacups and other stuff he touched. If a crime is committed in my house tomorrow (burglary etc) and they have his DNA on record (although he is completely innocent) he has every chance of being picked up and becoming a prime suspect.
asbean I'm sure the fact he was there would make him a suspect until proven otherwise and his DNA could do just that.
Quote from: saddad on November 12, 2009, 10:03:44
A good use, and a good result... we aren't against using DNA evidence, we just doubt the value of retaining "innocent" people's....
Quote from: Unwashed on November 11, 2009, 21:18:15
I don't see how a national DNA database is anything but a good thing. It's a bugger if you're a criminal, obviously, but if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear.
It's not the DNA itself that bothers me, it is the way in which police officers may interpret and use such evidence i.e, manipulate it to fit their picture of the crime and who they have in the frame for it.
When the police reform themselves and demonstrate that they can use their brains and intelligence to unpick and solve crimes rather than simply rely on mechanical and technological aids then they can have my DNA.
One thing about it is that is is seen as incontrovertible proof, and who would stand up against a prosecution 'expert' and tell them it ain't so, even if it isn't? And who would the jury believe?
Don't know if it's true or not, but I remember reading that a photograph shown to someone familiar is more reliable...?
Quote from: SMP1704 on November 12, 2009, 11:19:14
When the police reform themselves and demonstrate that they can use their brains and intelligence to unpick and solve crimes rather than simply rely on mechanical and technological aids then they can have my DNA.
Har har har. Brains. Policemen. Same sentence.
And they still can't have mine. Or my family's.
DNA is not the be all and end all of a criminal conviction/case solved.
I think that if you have been cleared by a fit and proper court then it should be removed from the data base.
As for it being planted at a crime scene how would this be done?
I didn't think that the vast majority of members were a bunch of cop haters still despite my short time here nothing much surprises me.
Speaking as someone who has had the cops smash open my front door at half 6 in the morning (and make me pay for the damage!), raid the house (finding nothing), arrest me in front of my daughter (who still has nightmares), publicly humiliate me, refuse to listen to any of my explanations, waste a year of my life during which I put so much on hold that it cost me a fortune (including my fledgling business venture)...
I was acquitted of any wrongdoing in a few minutes by a jury, then the judge described the prosecuting legal team and the case that they brought as "mad" and "insane", the indictment as "absolutely idiotic" and stated that "they need to have their heads examined". He went on to refer to the situation as "ludicrous" (I have a transcript, which cost me even more money but makes amazing reading)...
I still am not a "cop hater" (it is the system, not the people) but would you trust them with your DNA after that?
Once they think you're guilty, believe me, they will do whatever they can to prove they're right. They are not allowed to change their minds or admit that you might be telling the truth (the CPS don't let them).
Nothing to hide, nothing to fear? Oh I wish I was so naive again.
They have my DNA...along with my photo and fingerprints I was arrested interviewed and released without charge.
Like I said OllieC If you have been found not guilty/aquited by a fit and proper court or had no further action brought then yes it should be removed from the data base.
And it's the FSS who have reponsibility for it not the old bill.
yep they can keep it all as I have faith in the system and nothing to hide
Quote from: OllieC on November 12, 2009, 20:55:48
Speaking as someone who has had the cops smash open my front door at half 6 in the morning (and make me pay for the damage!), raid the house (finding nothing), arrest me in front of my daughter (who still has nightmares), publicly humiliate me, refuse to listen to any of my explanations, waste a year of my life during which I put so much on hold that it cost me a fortune (including my fledgling business venture)...
I was acquitted of any wrongdoing in a few minutes by a jury, then the judge described the prosecuting legal team and the case that they brought as "mad" and "insane", the indictment as "absolutely idiotic" and stated that "they need to have their heads examined". He went on to refer to the situation as "ludicrous" (I have a transcript, which cost me even more money but makes amazing reading)...
I still am not a "cop hater" (it is the system, not the people) but would you trust them with your DNA after that?
Once they think you're guilty, believe me, they will do whatever they can to prove they're right. They are not allowed to change their minds or admit that you might be telling the truth (the CPS don't let them).
Nothing to hide, nothing to fear? Oh I wish I was so naive again.
For all those that are 'innocent' there are quite a few others that have ben found not guilty on a technicality and they even believe they are not guilty. Some have really good Briefs that can twist evidence against the police so the guilty get off. These people have committed a crime but have been found innocent. Keeping a sample of DNA in the chance they can get them next time might get the scum off the streets.
Yes but you can see Ollie's argument,thismust be so frustrating for him,I can understand and if in his shoes would feel the same. :)
Yes I can see Ollie'S POV and ACE's. I hardly think plod went round Ollie's gaff on a whim in the first place...
Lets not make this personal
Quote from: fenbunny on November 12, 2009, 20:32:09
I didn't think that the vast majority of members were a bunch of cop haters still despite my short time here nothing much surprises me.
I don't think there is anything special about the members of this site, I think you'll find its the view of the general population.
Quote from: Slug_killer on November 13, 2009, 12:44:24
Quote from: fenbunny on November 12, 2009, 20:32:09
I didn't think that the vast majority of members were a bunch of cop haters still despite my short time here nothing much surprises me.
I think you'll find its the view of the general population.
Don't include me in that, kthanx :)
Nobody said "hate" until fenbunny... We're talking about mistrust, not hatred.
I would have more reason than most, but still don't hate any of them. Some of the processes are stupid (as any cop will tell you) and like any organisation there are a few idiots. They also make mistakes sometimes... But mostly they do a difficult job which benefits us all and for which I have the utmost respect.
Mistrust and respect (or lack of it), not hatred.
Let them have my DNA - not a chance.
Sorry to have to use an example from such a source...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1227520/Lawyer-sacked-150-000-job-DNA-wrongly-national-database.html
:-\ Nothing to worry about at all...
There you go then saddad, a good reason for a universal DNA database - and from the Hate Mail as well!
i think it should be taken at birth! im with you on this one ace! ;)
Quote from: simmo116 on November 13, 2009, 17:10:05
i think it should be taken at birth! im with you on this one ace! ;)
So I expect you have joined in the thousands of others to volunteer your DNA to the police? ;)
Quote from: BarriedaleNick on November 13, 2009, 18:42:18
So I expect you have joined in the thousands of others to volunteer your DNA to the police? ;)
Careful how you phrase that, you might not be the desk seargent's type. ;)
Unwashed - You made I Larf!!
Saddad - link not working for me..