Hi All,
just reading through the contract for my new lottie.
It is an old site that has been reopened after many years laying unworked.
The contract states that
- work has to be started on the plot within 6 weeks
- more than half the plot has to be "fully cultivated" within 6 months.
I have no problem with the first,but I had the intention of doing the plot bit by bit to make sure I do a good job and really get the soil to a good standard.
I also have an area I want to plant permenant items in but don't want to rush it to get it right,also I will reserve an area for the shed but I will not be able to afford that in the first 6 months.
so my question is
what counts as cultivated?
Cleared, growing produce (or ready for growing) and being maintained (weeded, grass cut etc.).
They're not asking for anything too onerous with half the plot in 6 months and you have all winter to get it done so that you can get sowing in the spring. If your permanent area is for fruit, autumn/winter is the time to get them in. If you don't put them in this autumn/winter it's a full year before you can next plant them so you lose a year of cropping. Peg out your area for the shed and cover it up with weed membrane/plastic so it's clear it's an area you have a plan for. If you change your mind about something, if something doesn't work, just move it. Improving the soil is a year-on-year process, if you wait until it's perfect you'll never plant anything! Get stuck in, there are things you can plant now - garlic, onions, peas, broad beans, oriental leaves - just seeing them growing is a big motivator. Good luck and most of all enjoy!
Quotemore than half the plot has to be "fully cultivated" within 6 months.
These seems unfair, considering the time of year, if it is an old site, then you are unlikly to get much growing in 6 month (End March).
I am sure as long as it is clear you are working on it, I don't think you need to worry.
Having said that, the idea of doing it bit by bit to get the soil to a good standard is a bad idea.
I have seen other try, and then give up or just leave.
Getting as much of the plot dug over as possible this autumn will help a lot come spring, especialy if you have heavy soil.
Then come spring, get some things planted, even if it is just a green manure.
And just because you want some perminant planting later, you can still plant with other stuff in the mean time, a green manure also helps improve the soil.
I think they are being over generous. It should be at least 75% in 6 months or 50% in 3 months.
If a person is not able to get a plot 50% cultivated in half a year they are not going to make it and should take a smaller plot. Lets face it. a few weekends work will clear the grass and brambles then a few more weekends will get a substantial amount of digging done.
It's funny how all those sitting on the waiting list do nothing but bellyache about all the uncultivated plots they can see, yet as soon as they get a plot they want nothing more than let their plot lie fallow. Get stuck in. Less talk, more digging. Once its done, its done, otherwise you will be fighting nature until nature or the site agent breaks you.
i think if you dig and weed then that would be quite enough. Who says you need to grow stuff over winter anyway?
thanks,
i have ordered some green manure to use.
I am a bit confused as some people seem to advocate the bit by bit approach and overs say just get it dug over and don't worry about it.
I am concerned about making sure all the Perennial weeds are out of the soil before planting.
good ides about marking out for the shed,I can just guesstimate an area and then change it when the time comes.
I would like an extensive area for soft fruit and wan ted to plan the planting and erect a fruit cage,I suppose I can plant a few and add to them later.
Hi Pookienoodle do you know your site rep?or what about the person/office that let you the plot.Someone must do plot inspections to determine whether standards are being met they are the people to discuss your intentions with.We're lucky our site rep is "my favourite welshman" who is on his plot most days for newbies to get any info they need.All that said many sites have lots of plots that are supposed to be cultivated and aren't you only have to read a thread on this forum titled "unworked plots " :(
Quote from: Eristic on September 30, 2009, 12:59:25
I think they are being over generous. It should be at least 75% in 6 months or 50% in 3 months.
If a person is not able to get a plot 50% cultivated in half a year they are not going to make it and should take a smaller plot. Lets face it. a few weekends work will clear the grass and brambles then a few more weekends will get a substantial amount of digging done.
It's funny how all those sitting on the waiting list do nothing but bellyache about all the uncultivated plots they can see, yet as soon as they get a plot they want nothing more than let their plot lie fallow. Get stuck in. Less talk, more digging. Once its done, its done, otherwise you will be fighting nature until nature or the site agent breaks you.
I hope the bellyacheing remark was not aimed at me personally,I was just asking what was considered cultivated.
I cannot do "more digging" as I don't have the key yet.
FYI my area no longer does half plots,they are now doing all new plots as 7 poles.
I am sure there is a lot more chance of "nature breaking" me if I rush things and end up with beds full of dandelions and deadly nightshade.
I think the 'bit by bit' approach means not trying to dig it all over in a weekend and killing yourself in the process. 'Little and often' is perhaps a better way to describe it. If you have the means, cover the area which will start to weaken the weeds and roll back the covering as you clear and dig. You'll never get all the perennial weeds out first time so it's not worth trying. Whatever weeds are left are easily dealt with by weeding and hoeing.
Pookie
I always think its better to properly dig half a plot than badly dig the whole lot. It really is worth getting all the perenial weeds out at the earliest opportunity and then redig them out at intervals. Might well be ideal to get digging in one area and then plant an area with raspberries/fruit trees to keep anyone off your back! Top tip is that both Aldi and Lidl sell excellent fruit bushes (gooseberries, currants, raspberries etc) and trees (apple, pear, cherry etc) over the winter so it is worth waiting for them to come along - the trees are about £3 each only. I got a few last year and have espalliered them and they are great. That might be a way of cultivating a large area fast.
Seriously do not follow advice to dig the whole lot - if you are like me and work full time and have kids and all the related drains on time you will never get it all dug over the winter. I spent most saturdays down there last winter and I only really dug 1/2 to 2/3 of the plot properly - any areas I dug quickly were soon back under weeds. The trick is being realistic - you'll get an idea of what you can did and how quickly pretty soon. Digging the whole lot will come in time.
Good luck - hope it goes well and please drop me a message if you ever need advice.
Psi
P.S Pookie remember having an allotment is meant to be a pleasure (as well as the hard work) enjoy :)
Quote from: Psi on September 30, 2009, 13:18:29
Seriously do not follow advice to dig the whole lot
Psi, if you read back, no-one has actually suggested that.
thanks for all the advice,
I do want to get it right as I was brought up to believe that poor soil=poor produce.
I was a grower of prize winning veg as a child but it had been a while since I did anything other than a few toms in my tiny back garden. ;D
the stern lessons of the traditional allotment holders of my youth still ring in my ears.
I will try the little by little approach and play it by ear.
thanks for the tip about the lidl fruit bushes..I always assumed they must be carp.
Some sensible advice from macmac - find out who's in charge and talk to them. Most sites have regulations, but it's how they are interpreted that's important.
My job as Secretary is to keep plots filled and get the land cultivated. If I go along spouting regulations and counting weeds, I'm shooting myself in the foot and not doing any favours to the newcomers, the existing members or the site as a whole. I'd much rather spend hours talking things through with newcomers, which also helps them feel welcome and appreciated.
And like most of the others have said, be thorough. In my book the important thing is how often you appear and do some work!
Quote from: ceres on September 30, 2009, 13:22:56
Quote from: Psi on September 30, 2009, 13:18:29
Seriously do not follow advice to dig the whole lot
Psi, if you read back, no-one has actually suggested that.
Ceres, indeed. Are you the new Poirot?
Quote from: Eristic on September 30, 2009, 12:59:25
I think they are being over generous. It should be at least 75% in 6 months or 50% in 3 months.
If a person is not able to get a plot 50% cultivated in half a year they are not going to make it and should take a smaller plot. Lets face it. a few weekends work will clear the grass and brambles then a few more weekends will get a substantial amount of digging done.
If you can get a plot which hasn't been worked in a long time it clear in a few weekends, I am very impressed.
My plot hadn't been worked in at least 10 years, was completely covered in couch and had topsoil and couch over the half rotten carpet on some sections. It was taking about an hour to clear each square metre to a sensible standard. 5 years on, I have finally all 10 perch clear and planted.
Sure you can turn it over very quickly, and if you've only got annual weeds then that's all that is needed, but to make such a sweeping statement surely sets too high a bar for sensible aspirations and will only serve to discourage.
The newest newbie with us has just taken on a similar area to mine, if he gets 3 perch clear by spring then he'll be doing well.
I agree it's better to have half done well than struggle with the lot, but it depends how fit and how much time you have.
Whatever cultivated means, it surely doesn't mean planted with things. It's perfectly reasonable on a new plot or even an established one, to have nothing growing there at all end of March
Quote from: Psi on September 30, 2009, 13:30:59
Quote from: ceres on September 30, 2009, 13:22:56
Quote from: Psi on September 30, 2009, 13:18:29
Seriously do not follow advice to dig the whole lot
Psi, if you read back, no-one has actually suggested that.
Ceres, indeed. Are you the new Poirot?
No, I don't have the moustache for it, even on a bad day ;)
Just don't understand why it's necessary to mis-represent the words of others to make your own point.
Quote from: ceres on September 30, 2009, 14:16:03
Quote from: Psi on September 30, 2009, 13:30:59
Quote from: ceres on September 30, 2009, 13:22:56
Quote from: Psi on September 30, 2009, 13:18:29
Seriously do not follow advice to dig the whole lot
Psi, if you read back, no-one has actually suggested that.
Ceres, indeed. Are you the new Poirot?
No, I don't have the moustache for it, even on a bad day ;)
Just don't understand why it's necessary to mis-represent the words of others to make your own point.
That was never the intention, I merely wanted to suggest digging part and doing what you can with the time you have is the key. Many new plot holders feel pressured to work miracles quickly when in fact they ought to be encouraged as much as possible. I'm sorry if I touched a raw nerve. Apologies.
There are lots of things that will grow through weed-supressing plastic if you put it down. I grew my squash (see photo in thread in Edibles) by basically covering over an area having strimmed it and making a few piles of manure on it literally, just tip out a barrowful straight onto the strimmed area. Don't clear off the strimmed weed tops either. Not a bad idea to cover the strimmed area weith cardboard or newspaper first but I only did that on the bit near the pumpkin plant. The manure was fresh horse BTW. PUt the plastic over the top of the lot of it held down with pallets. Started the squash plants off in mid-late April in the GH in 3" pots, potted on into 6" pots once the root appeared at the bottom of the 3" and hardened off at home in their 6" pots through mid May. Took them to the plot at the end of May, used a craft knife to cut a small cross in the plastic over the top of each manure pile adn planted the squash straight into that.
Result was a decent squash crop, almost no weeds made it through (a couple of thistles that have been treated savagely) and there's not a lot of signs of weed roots left in the soil.... some bindweed made it through a summer with no light but that's about it.....
Did pretty much the same with potatos and although the yield wasn't great there's almost no weed left in there now.....
But that was nearly a third of my plot with crops on and not a fork in sight :D I'll be using similar techniques next year to clear the bit that's not had much happen too it except weedmulch this year, but as I plan on it being the fruit area in the long term I'm not so fussed about being in a hurry for it.....
Also if you have access to a decently sized form of transport and there's an active Freecycle scene in your area then you should be able to pick up builders bags (1 cubic metre bags) and topsoil being removed from other peoples gardens (they're digging a pond, or want a sunken area or whatever) .... You can sit them on top of weedmulch and not only do they hold it in place and smother anything under it but you can grow decent onions, sweetcorn and potatos in them.... the only reason I lost a tomato crop in them was because of blight.... I'll be using that technique again too.... though they do need more watering than crops in the flat....
chrisc
chrisc
Lets look at the practicalities of this ( based on my own experience from starting from scratch)
I pegged my site out as I wanted it to ultimately be and that was 7 beds approx 5 foot wide and the full width of the plot (roughly 30ft)
Then like you I didnt want to overface my self with digging so I planned it as follows;
Work in two-three hour stints daily, aim for a quarter of a bed per stint!
So roughly this meant 7 x 4 ( 28days) x 3hours = roughly 85-90 hours
But lets look at the days (28) if you were to do one stint per week this would take 28 weeks which is a little over 6 months so I don't think their target is unachievable.
As it happens I managed to my plot in under a month (I'm retired) without overdoing it!
So thats my view for what it is worth and I agree with the statement;
Quoteremember having an allotment is meant to be a pleasure (as well as the hard work) enjoy
In fact my motto is;
the output from a plot is relative to the input put into it!So nout in nout out!!
It does depend on your soil type. My site was pretty much undigable for a good part of the year this year. Early spring the soil was like wet concrete for several months followed by a brief window of opportunity before it turned to dry solid concrete which due to a lack of rainfall except for a couple of weeks in July it has stayed in the concrete state. I tried to dig last week and failed completely. This afternoon I was talking to a neighbouring plot holder as he valiantly tried to dig a section of his plot he managed to get his spade in about 2" he tried for about 10 mins but failed miserably and gave up and this guy had cultivated this part of his plot. Faced with those conditions you need a bit longer to get your plot cultivated particularly from scratch.
well I just spoke to the council guy and I was given the wrong contract(they have a different one for plots in bad condition)
it should read.
- start cultivation within 6 weeks
- "some significant" cultivation within 6 months
- at least 50% of plot cultivated by the end of the first year
that sounds a bit better to me,he said as long as it is obvious that progress is being made its fine.
they have had problems in the past with people getting plots and putting sheds up as places to come and smoke and drink and never growing anything.
thanks for all the advice and the "lively" conversation.
Hurray at last you've had your mind put at ease.Like your council guy says some people see their plot as an extension of their garden ,which is fine if you grow stuff in your garden but if you only ever read the paper in a deckchair.....Happy growing :)
That sounds reasonable to me.
Yes, "as long as it is obvious that progress is being made, its fine." That's what we all want. If you keep putting in the effort, they are not going to get surveyor's tools out and throw you out because you've only cultivated 48%!
We aimed to get half done in our first year and managed two-thirds (plus about a fifth of a second - larger - plot we'd added in the meantime). But I think if we'd aimed at 100% and only got two-thirds done we'd have been rather down-hearted.
So go for it, pookie and show 'em....
Pookie,
As far as I am aware the meaning behind cultivated for the councils point of view, is to have the whole patch cleared of weeds and half the pacth dug ready for the coming seasons ahead.
If this is done then the authority have seen that you are showing willing and allow you to stay.
Failing this you can appeal to the local reps for a stay of time to allow you to get this section up to what they deem as satisfactory.
It should have been explained to you and given to you in writing before terms were agreed.
QuoteIf you can get a plot which hasn't been worked in a long time it clear in a few weekends, I am very impressed.
Here you go Mrs. Soup. Plot taken on mid March and harvesting commences mid July. OK it is only a 5 pole plot but the photos do not show the fact that there is virtually no topsoil and is on the heavy side of heavy clay underlying wet.
(http://downtheplot.com/images/allotment_3.jpg)
(http://downtheplot.com/images/allotment_8.jpg)
(http://downtheplot.com/images/cultivation_5.jpg)
(http://downtheplot.com/images/crops_1.jpg)
The reason I advocate getting stuck in and getting it all dug over is that that is the most energy efficient way of taking control. Remember, nature will not stand still while anyone plods along one metre at a time. Focus on a small bit for a short time then turn around and the bit you did earlier has returned to the wild.
Get it all dug over. Sure, weeds will grow, that's why they invented the hoe and scuffle.
wow thats impressive,do you have a full time job and a family as well?
I know I won't be able to make such good progress,I have a job(pt) a 3 year old and a disabled husband.
I am hopeing to make a couple of raised beds so my husband can get involved to (when the council sort out the paths)
I will be able to do an hour or so a day and more at the weekends so I will be able to cultivate plenty when it is up and running,it may just take me a while to get to that point.
kudos to those that can do it so quickly.
Pookienoodle hello and a warm welcome to A4A!
Above all don't get discouraged if you don't made the progress that you feel you should have. Do as much as often as you can, which allowing for your family, job and the weather may at times be less than you hoped.
Come next spring I'm sure that you'll be all ready to join the mad rush to plant, sow, water and weed!
I am glad you have a better time scale which you feel more comfortable with. But I am sure if you are keen you will get it sorted in no time at all. I love having my allotment so I hope you enjoy yours.
Mine seemed daunting to start with but I caught the bug and soon it was just over flowing in produce. I ended up realizing I had forgotten to leave space for the PSB. Then every time something came out there was a queue of things waiting to go in.
I use a lot of mulching to suppress weeds.
I've got to say it Pookie though it's my well used saying "you can't eat an elephant in one sitting" small bites ;)
Quote from: pookienoodle on September 30, 2009, 21:06:06
I will be able to do an hour or so a day and more at the weekends so I will be able to cultivate plenty when it is up and running,it may just take me a while to get to that point.
kudos to those that can do it so quickly.
I got a really rough plot in June - similar to you my job/wife/kids take up a lot of my time but I found spending an hour a day weekdays 8-9 pm (when kids on way to bed) and an hour or two Sat/Sun was all I needed to get my plot sorted in 3 months. I was lucky that I could get a lot of stuff planted in July - it is an amazing encouragement to keep going - don't know how I'm going to cope once the evenings draw in - lanterns?
I'm surprised no-one has mentioned this yet (I'm surprised that I didn't even)....
One way you can reduce the amount of weeding is mulch plastic, especially if underlaid with cardboard or newspaper...., however using it pretty much precludes direct planting of anything other than spuds and similar (Jerusalem Artichokes, Oca, Yacon etc....) An easy way round this is to start seeds off in modules, not just the tender stuff like tomatos, but just about everything. Start in modules, then plant out through small holes cut through the plastic/cardboard. Especially in the first year or so you can get away with using a single 40-module tray per session, make up a sheet of A4 marked up to replicate it soi that you can tell whats what and number you module sets, then sow enough modules for the number of plants you want (if you only want half a small row of beetroot only sow up 8 modules of beets) with say 3 seeds per module, if you get more than one seedling up weed out the smallest ones and leave the big one.... once the roots are to the bottom of the module plant them out at final spacing or stick it in a bigger pot or module if the space isn't ready...the 15-space ones are useful here.... you use a lot less seed, making the "40 varieties for a fiver" kits on ebay a good starting point but equally you cut down on the weeding a lot as everything is mulched and also a big part of the "doing the allotment" can now be done at home, with a cup of tea etc..... I found it made for a great day when I was getting 30-40 minutes in the morning sowing seeds, get to and from work early to allow myself a couple of hours on the plot of an April evening.... Things I'd recommend:
Boltardy beetroot, absolutely bombproof, taste great.
Brussel sprout Evesham
Brussel sprout Red Bull
cabbage red Drumhead
Broad beans (most any but I had success with Aquadulce Claudia and didn't grow anything else)
Cucmber Marketmore (outdoor ridge variety)
Courgette Green Bush
Climbing French Bean Cobra (so good I'll not bother with anything else)
Lettuce Little Gem
Long Red Florence onions grown in clustrers of 4-5
Onion Aislas Craig
Onion Rjinnsburger
Onion Kelsae ( a massive onion that makes brilliant soup)
Onion Borretana di Sotoaceti (italian pickling onion, sow 5-7 per module and plant clumps out at 3" or so....)
chrisc