On the day after 8 British soldiers were killed in one day in Afghanistan Gordon Brown announced that his strategy for Afghanistan is working.
His policy so far appears to have consisted of spending as little money as possible on proper equipment for our troops and sending them out as ill-equipped as possible.
Is this what he means?
Where to start? Every retired Defence chief who has spoken out has said Gordon Brown had no interest or sympathy with their problems. It was reported by the commanders in Iraq that just about every government department sent representatives out to Iraq to learn about the situation except the Treasury under Brown.
Former Defence chiefs accuse Government of 'failing' Armed Forces (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/3759898/Former-Defence-chiefs-accuse-Government-of-failing-Armed-Forces.html)
Dannatt has publicly said he wants another 2000 troops (and not just to the Tories as Labour ministers have tried to smear the Army and play politics with this issue just like when Brown went grandstanding in Iraq during the Tory party conference thereby breaking a long standing convention not to mention lying to the troops about Xmas redeployment. It seems whenever Brown wants a photo-op he uses the armed forces). Yet David Milliband, that well known military strategic expert says more troops aren't needed. The Generals are there to provide honest advice and information not tow the party line. The political masters cannot refute the experts in these matters. If for some other reason i.e short on cash, they disagree with the military then they have to make their case but be prepared to suffer the wrath of public opinion when the Armed Forces are understaffed and under equipped.
Labour clashes with army as Afghan death toll mounts (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6689952.ece)
Darling was on the TV saying the Army could have whatever they wanted (just as Blair used to say while Brown kept the purse strings firmly shut). And yet it is widely known that the Treasury civil servants have told the MoD that there will be no more cash for armoured personnel carriers or helicopters.
'Treasury-imposed cap' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1191885/Treasury-imposed-cap-meant-British-Army-afford-fight-Taliban-month.html)
We've had horror stories of the MoD buying cheap ammo from Eastern Europe which has consistently failed in use and recently we have the report that the MoD bought armoured vehicles that the US Army had rejected because in testing they provided inadequate protection against IEDs. MoD troop carriers are U.S. rejects (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1199118/MoD-troop-carriers-U-S-rejects--1-10-soldiers-die-Afghanistan.html)
Some of the other links I've bookmarked
MoD fury as Brown wields axe (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3382397.ece)
Army faces biggest cuts since Crimea (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6544223.ece)
Now with the new Cabinet we have the most junior Defence Secretary in many many decades. When the Queen lists a new Cabinet they are in order of seniority and Defence Sec. usually come in the top 5 but Bob Ainsworth is ranked near the bottom (21st out of 23). LINK (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1197529/21st-23-Defence-Secretary-s-Cabinet-rank-lowest-history-prompting-Armed-Forces-anger.html)
The other problem is antiquated defence procurement. We should stop using the defence budget as a means to prop up British industry. The priorities are protecting the lives of military personnel and providing the means to do the job they are asked to do - not keeping open British factories just to please corporations, unions and workers. There are British companies who make very good equipment at good prices and they should get the custom of the UK govt. But in many areas of equipment there are no decent British manufacturers. We waste vast amounts of money designing and subsidising equipment when there are tried and tested equivalents available to purchase 'off the peg' and that can be deployed with little delay - helicopter procurement suffers from this horrendously.
Labour clearly don't give a stuff about the armed forces. But there are doubts about the Tories due to the horrendous condition of the nations finances it is all too easy for politicians to see the defence budget as an easy target for cuts.
Dont get me started!!
They shoudnt have gone in there in the first place. They were never going to change the minds of a bunch of backward religious nuts, and there are too many of them to kill. Sadly 'Taliban' is a mindset rather than a group that can be exterminated with a few bombs - I have met plenty of British born white men who would like to keep their girlfriends in a burka.
We spend billions bombing and/or handing cash to dictators in developing countries, while the NHS is going down the pan and elderly people here die from lack of basic care. This government has forgotten their priorities.
Afghanistan, wants bombing off this planet, they are a race of killing ignorant morons.
I watched tonights news at 10, seeing yet more young men brought home to loved ones in a coffin, 1 only 18yrs old. :'( :'( :'(
Bomb them i say. >:( >:(
Quote from: rosebud on July 14, 2009, 23:20:22
Bomb them i say. >:( >:(
I'll pass on your words of compassion and wisdom to my brother in law when he's out there later in the year. Not.
Now if you said 'Whitehall wants bombing off the planet, they are a race of ignorant killing morons' then that'd be better advice.
our boys are entitled to get the best kit and that's our job to insist that parliaments's gets it sorted.
This should not be a political football.
It is not a game we are playing her - its war
and where ever they are deployed I know that our sercice personnel will represent this country with professionalism and it hurts that there are sections of society who do not appreciate their efforts and jump on the band wagon for their own persnal agendas to be advanced.
dax
Quote from: rosebud on July 14, 2009, 23:20:22
Afghanistan, wants bombing off this planet, they are a race of killing ignorant morons.
I watched tonights news at 10, seeing yet more young men brought home to loved ones in a coffin, 1 only 18yrs old. :'( :'( :'(
Bomb them i say. >:( >:(
What an outrageous (and rascist) post. All Afghans? A very high number of the 'Taliban' fighters are radicalised Pakistanis. Do you include all Pakistanis? Or is your hatred aimed more specifically than that? Do you want to just bomb Pashtuns, Tajiks or Hazaris or maybe one of the smaller ethnic groups? You have just called for genocide - I hope you are proud.
Who voted us to be Policemen of the world, Thank goodness Iraq didn't invade us when we we sorting out Northern Ireland.
In 1839 it was a nuts hole then for British squaddies, did we not learn our lesson? mens bits no, we are still walking through nuts from the UK to our Colonies in the Southern Hemisphere, why don't every F--k-r, F-ck off back to the Uk,
Im an Armed Forces Veteran and far too old and past it but I wish I was still able to do my bit. I would glady go out there and help out.
I did 22years and enjoyed almost every minute!
Thats all Im saying really.
great to hear fork ;D My brother is in his 11th year and is planning to do the full 22 yrs too. He loves what he does and looks like he'll be going back out to Afghan soon. My heart goes out to the families and friends who have lost so much. I'm worried about my bro but its what he loves and what he believes in so all i can do is hope he comes home in one peace. I try not to think about it all too much to be honest.
Lucy
Quoteyet more young men brought home to loved ones in a coffin
This is because we are fighting a losing battle that was none of our business in the first place!
This war (and the one in Iraq) is just creating more terrorism and fundamentalism, and condemning the most vulnerable people in these countries (ie women) to even worse poverty and abuse. Not to mention the ever increasing risk of civil war in this country.
Sadly the only political party that is actively opposing all our meddling in foreign affairs is the BNP, and I fear that eventually a fascist party will get into power on this ticket, and this country will quickly become a totalitarian police state. New-Labour has already set up the infrastructure, and I'm sure the Tories will carry on after they win the next election.
Maybe everyone forgot but Afghanistan was a direct result of 9/11 and NATO evoking common defence clauses of which we are a signatory. I'm very proud of the moral and legal justification for invading Afghanistan.
The ultimate solution to Afghanistan will come from the political process but in the mean time the Army has to keep on top of things and they need proper manpower and proper equipment. Maybe a few thousand scroungers on the dole could suck it up and join the armed forces.
Good to hear from Fork and mummybunny
Sorry I did not finish my last post because the political correct police came knocking, personally I want our lads out unless other NATO and EU members start to carry the same responsibilities like the UK do, without going into much detail, the Krauts have more squaddies more tanks and more CHOPPERS than we have please don't quote any anything to me that the Krauts are not allowed to get involved in front line attraction they would love it, once again we are the bloody mugs, >:(
Don't forget that we are also trying to help the Afghan people, some are living in constant fear of the Taliban themselves and have nowhere else to turn. There are many countries turning a blind eye thinking it will never affect them
Troubles in Afghanistan are a world wide problem. 90% of the worlds war on terror is not just all about the taliban, Fundamental extremists are also fighting to preserve the drugs trade too. It is a lucrative trade for some and livelihoods for others. This affects every country in the world and will be on most housing estates around the UK in one form or another whether people are aware of it or not. Affecting crime rates and the number of people in our overcrowded prisons, NHS resources, police resources to name but a few.
So next time a police officer is unavailable due to being on a drugs bust, next time an ambulance cannot come to you because it is on a shout to somebody who has overdosed on heroin, next time prisoners are released early and re-offend..... just remember that some of us are fighting crime from the frontline in Helmand so you at home can sleep nice and cosy and feel safe.
One final point: Recent explosive devices used against our armed forces have been proved to be professionally manufactured from countries outside Afghanistan.
Quote from: ktlawson on July 17, 2009, 21:14:34
Don't forget that we are also trying to help the Afghan people, some are living in constant fear of the Taliban themselves and have nowhere else to turn. There are many countries turning a blind eye thinking it will never affect them
Troubles in Afghanistan are a world wide problem. 90% of the worlds war on terror is not just all about the taliban, Fundamental extremists are also fighting to preserve the drugs trade too. It is a lucrative trade for some and livelihoods for others. This affects every country in the world and will be on most housing estates around the UK in one form or another whether people are aware of it or not. Affecting crime rates and the number of people in our overcrowded prisons, NHS resources, police resources to name but a few.
So next time a police officer is unavailable due to being on a drugs bust, next time an ambulance cannot come to you because it is on a shout to somebody who has overdosed on heroin, next time prisoners are released early and re-offend..... just remember that some of us are fighting crime from the frontline in Helmand so you at home can sleep nice and cosy and feel safe.
One final point: Recent explosive devices used against our armed forces have been proved to be professionally manufactured from countries outside Afghanistan.
Thanks for the history and social science lesson I always wondered why I wasted nine years of my life in that green stuff, ;)
I would like to apologise, to everyone reading my post the other day.
I was very upset & angry after watching the news of those 8 soldiers being brought home, like so many others recently.
:)
Many years ago I did my National Service which we were forced into doing, O.K. I agree it was a great two years of fun rollicking around in Germany on the Frontier patrol, and having a booze up on a Saturday night all at the tax payers bill.
But today if you volunteer to join the armed forces you should be aware that soldiers do get killed, someone ought to tell them about this when they join.
I never did national service but I did volunteer I know many that did national service and hated every bloody minute of it, the same goes for WW1 & WW2 if you ever get the chance go round the museum on the harbour at Ramsgate, they have walls of graffiti taken from WW1 holding camps in Kent for conscientious objectors they certainly did not want to fight for Queen and Country, also look at WW2 and shortly after D-Day when British troops of all ranks just packed and said they would not fight, needless to say it was soon sorted out before it spread any futher,
Hi Y'all, been away and come back to this really interesting post. Two points.
Firstly, politicians are bleating on about how the presence of our troops is facilitating education for Afghani children who have never had the opportunity of an eduction before. Secondly they are blethering about how the rights of Afghni women are eing improved, also as a result of our being there.
Both lies. Schools built by the coalition forces are unable to open because of the conflict and the shortage of teachers. Many afghani women never came out of the burkha, and many are now going back into purdah because the influence of the Taliban grows stronger every day.
So tell me please, since when was it the British Army's remit to go out and die so that foreign schoolchildren can get an education or foreign women gain more cultural freedom? Much as we desire democracy for all, it is not our role to try and change regimes by force, in this case putting our own country at risk through terrorism ostensibly in the name of those who want us out of Afghanistan?
Better that these lying politiicans come clean about the real reason for us being in that benighted country, and you can bet there is a REAL reason, and you can also bet that reason centres round resources, oil or otherwise. Bring the boys home to look after US, because the defence of THIS realm is the reason for the existence of our brave British Army.
Caro
Quote from: rosebud on July 17, 2009, 22:47:01
I would like to apologise, to everyone reading my post the other day.
I was very upset & angry after watching the news of those 8 soldiers being brought home, like so many others recently.
My take on this is that you shouldn't need to apologise, simply because the word "racist" is flung at you by someone whose politics are far more inspired by hatred than your post ever was.
There's a lot of bullying on most internet forums. A4A is one of the better ones, but even here you go against the established climate of opinion at your peril.
Rosebud didn't need to apologise but she did regardless and in so doing showed class.
You on the other hand just seem to want to stir things up.
Quote from: Mr Smith on July 18, 2009, 09:18:30
I never did national service but I did volunteer I know many that did national service and hated every bloody minute of it, the same goes for WW1 & WW2 if you ever get the chance go round the museum on the harbour at Ramsgate, they have walls of graffiti taken from WW1 holding camps in Kent for conscientious objectors they certainly did not want to fight for Queen and Country, also look at WW2 and shortly after D-Day when British troops of all ranks just packed and said they would not fight, needless to say it was soon sorted out before it spread any futher,
I agree if the country is at War to defend themselves i.e. Falklands WW1 WW2, you should be called up automatically, but to volunteer a lifestyle and then discover OH ! so you can get killed then.
Isn't it strange how they always inform us of how many British Soldiers are killed never the Taliban, I suppose this is because British Soldiers deaths are creating mass hysteria and sensationalism ----- the good old tabloids
Despite feeling sorry for those left behind and families in a family death, THEY CHOSE THE LIFE DIDN'T THEY.
Vony
how many young lads of seventeen,eighteen are capable of choosing anything really.They have no life experience to help them make the decision.
I think many young lads join up as they see a life of adventure.I know that many can not get jobs and this seems like a good option for them.
WW2 was a different matter all together.We were fighting for our survival :)
Quote from: Melbourne12 on July 18, 2009, 10:09:35
Quote from: rosebud on July 17, 2009, 22:47:01
I would like to apologise, to everyone reading my post the other day.
I was very upset & angry after watching the news of those 8 soldiers being brought home, like so many others recently.
My take on this is that you shouldn't need to apologise, simply because the word "racist" is flung at you by someone whose politics are far more inspired by hatred than your post ever was.
There's a lot of bullying on most internet forums. A4A is one of the better ones, but even here you go against the established climate of opinion at your peril.
What an idiotic post. My smiley says that I accepted Rosebuds apology - end of as far as I was concerned. I do not want to rake over her (obviously in the heat of an emotional moment) post but you have now forced me to.
In what way can calling for an entire country of people to be wiped out not be racist or genocidic? In what way am I motivated by hate when it is my desire for everybody to live together in peace and equality and I believe that all life is sacrosanct? And in what way was my post bullying just because it does not accord with your obviously bigotted views?
And one further point. I believe in everybody's right to freedom of speech. I have never reported a post to Dan for censorship and did not in this case. But I also retain my right to disagree with what other people say.
Quote from: Vony on July 18, 2009, 10:52:01
Quote from: Mr Smith on July 18, 2009, 09:18:30
I never did national service but I did volunteer I know many that did national service and hated every bloody minute of it, the same goes for WW1 & WW2 if you ever get the chance go round the museum on the harbour at Ramsgate, they have walls of graffiti taken from WW1 holding camps in Kent for conscientious objectors they certainly did not want to fight for Queen and Country, also look at WW2 and shortly after D-Day when British troops of all ranks just packed and said they would not fight, needless to say it was soon sorted out before it spread any futher,
I agree if the country is at War to defend themselves i.e. Falklands WW1 WW2, you should be called up automatically, but to volunteer a lifestyle and then discover OH ! so you can get killed then.
Isn't it strange how they always inform us of how many British Soldiers are killed never the Taliban, I suppose this is because British Soldiers deaths are creating mass hysteria and sensationalism ----- the good old tabloids
Despite feeling sorry for those left behind and families in a family death, THEY CHOSE THE LIFE DIDN'T THEY.
I knew the consequences when I joined up and never complained but did plenty of moaning like everyother squaddie, ;)
Yippee,
I can't wait for this perfect and equality of life to come along in to my world, which will mean for me being bettered payed and longer holidays a secure job and then we are all be equal, ;)
Quote from: redclanger on July 18, 2009, 11:12:27
What an idiotic post. My smiley says that I accepted Rosebuds apology - end of as far as I was concerned.
That's the trouble with the interwebs. You think that you're having a personal exchange with another poster, forcing them to apologise, and graciously accepting it, and all sorts of people earwig on your conversation.
Quote from: redclanger on July 18, 2009, 11:12:27
I do not want to rake over her (obviously in the heat of an emotional moment) post but you have now forced me to.
Nobody forced you to do anything. You chose to respond. If you didn't want to "rake over" things publicly, you should have taken it to PMs.
Quote from: redclanger on July 18, 2009, 11:12:27
In what way can calling for an entire country of people to be wiped out not be racist or genocidic?
This is really the heart of the matter. Racism is a most serious accusation. Yet every day we see it trivialised, as you did. National stereotyping is not per se racism. The Pashtuns are indeed a very warlike people. Not just a few of them. And they have been so since time immemorial. The person whose post you objected to was entirely right. It was no more racist to express such a view than it would be to comment on the French fondness for cheese. I'm sure that you can find Pashtuns (especially in the diaspora) who are staunch peaceniks. Just as I'm sure that you can find individual French people who abjure dairy products. But it's not where the smart money is.
As Private Eye so memorably remarked, "In any barrel of rotten apples, you're bound to find the ofdd good one."
And this very weekend I've read in a serious newspaper an article advocating the projection of air power to deny access to the mountain passes between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Or, put more simply, bomb them. The author wasn't advocating genocide, merely a military tactic.
Quote from: redclanger on July 18, 2009, 11:12:27In what way am I motivated by hate when it is my desire for everybody to live together in peace and equality and I believe that all life is sacrosanct?
Quote from: Mr Smith on July 19, 2009, 16:16:12
Yippee,
I can't wait for this perfect and equality of life to come along in to my world, which will mean for me being bettered payed and longer holidays a secure job and then we are all be equal, ;)
Like Mr Smith, I'm sure that when you rule the world, every day will be the first day of spring.
Quote from: redclanger on July 18, 2009, 11:12:27And in what way was my post bullying just because it does not accord with your obviously bigotted views?
Ah, you're situating the appreciation there, I suggest. That's exactly the sort of hectoring tone that prompted me to reply in the first place.
Quote from: redclanger on July 18, 2009, 11:15:37
And one further point. I believe in everybody's right to freedom of speech. I have never reported a post to Dan for censorship and did not in this case. But I also retain my right to disagree with what other people say.
Let's end on a note of agreement. I can confirm that I didn't report your post either.
Melbourne,
Do me a favour never mention me in the same post as Castro Clanger, ;)