There are many different interpretations of the word 'organic'.
There are naturally occurring substances, such as rock phosphate, which as Barnowl quite rightly points out, in the thread about Tomorite, are chemically speaking inorganic, as they do not contain carbon hydrogen and oxygen.
However, in terms of growing Organic produce, i.e. produce that could be legally sold as Organic, the use of rock phosphate is permissible, as it is a naturally occurring substance.
Peat is a naturally occurring product, that chemically is organic, but as a non-sustainable resource, is frowned upon by the Organic Authorities such as the Soil Association.
To be legally accredited as an Organic Producer generally takes about 2 years, depending on the history of the production site, and the proximity of other Non-Organic production, so it is highly unlikely that any allotment would meat such criteria.
I think that the best one could achieve on an allotment, is the feeling that one is producing fantastic fresh produce in a way that is as environmentally friendly as possible, under the specific circumstances.
To claim that it is Organic, is to undermine the efforts of all the accredited Organic growers and suppliers of Organic produce.
As an ex-commercial grower of both Organic and Conventional (i.e. non-organic) slad crops, I have no axe to grind either way.
I just wish people would not claim to be something that they are not.
what / who has got your goat?
http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,51071.msg518284.html#msg518284
we can all grow to organic standards and principles, but only those who jump through all the accreditation hoops can legally sell / market produce as 'organic'
rgds, Tonybloke ( National Award in Organic Horticulture and Food Production) Xx
Right then, so me telling my family and a few of my friends and saying I grow my vegetables according to organic principles undermines commercial growers does it? Get real!
Personally in my opinion organic growing comes under the other rmisconsection of Recycling total dogstesticles, up to eighteen months ago China had a new COAL fired powered station coming on line every week, who gives a dogs testicle I don't, :)
I worked in a office situation in an organic farm. I was appalled about the amount of weedkiller that they used around the place. I saw the soil tested one day and he took samples from the middle of several fields. Pity he did not check the edges, or come back the day after he did the test, when the weed killer appeared.
I stopped buying organic produce there seemed no point.
Also compost made from domestic green waste is called organic, yet it contains non organic input. Including grass clipping from lawns treated with selective weedkiller.
I am fairly organic, but use non organic seeds, the organic options are expensive and limited.
I do not feel that I am a threat to commercial growers. I have been growing without the use of poisons for 35 years,
Quote from: Pescador on May 08, 2009, 15:46:53
There are many different interpretations of the word 'organic'.
There are naturally occurring substances, such as rock phosphate, which as Barnowl quite rightly points out, in the thread about Tomorite, are chemically speaking inorganic, as they do not contain carbon hydrogen and oxygen.
Just being pedantic (as a chemist)
There are 2 nomenclatures that are confused. Chemical nomenclature and the newer consumer food nomenclature.
Organic should mean 'containing carbon' in the traditional chemical nomenclature. Rock phosphate has oxygen in it - phosphorous + oxygen = phosphate and is considered chemically inorganic but is confusingly thought of as organic because of its natural production.
Inorganic is the wrong term in the consumer food nomenclature. Better to stick with non-organic.
Tomorite has carbon, oxygen and hydrogen in it and chemically organic but I suppose non-organic to the consumer. Although I thought Tomorite was partially produced with some stewed seaweed. I don't really know.
As an aside you shouldn't be particularly worried about 'unnatural chemicals' entering your produce. Excluding direct spray pesticides, fertilisers are fairly simple uncomplicated chemicals and the plant does the job of modifying, filtering and absorbing them. If you were worried about such things then you should be far more worried about organic fertilisers which contain dozens and dozens of different complex chemicals. Consider seaweed extracts which contain high levels of iodine but no one worries about thyroid disorders because it doesn't really matter as the plant sorts it all out.
Pretty much all pesticides and herbicides contain carbon and are certainly produced by what is called organic chemistry and be considered chemically organic. Even the wicked aminopyralid is an organic chemical. But all are considered non-organic in the new consumer nomenclature.
I only go 'organic' so far as it involves recycling materials I have at hand and saving money. Otherwise when I need a quick hit I'll use a non-organic fertiliser. I'm not worried about it. Why sacrifice all the scientific knowledge we've accumulated in the design and use of non-organic fertilisers?
Quote from: labrat on May 08, 2009, 20:59:03
I only go 'organic' so far as it involves recycling materials I have at hand and saving money. Otherwise when I need a quick hit I'll use a non-organic fertiliser. I'm not worried about it. Why sacrifice all the scientific knowledge we've accumulated in the design and use of non-organic fertilisers?
why bother worrying about steroids, lets feed our kids on them!!
why worry about the soil? lets all just use the soil as an inert medium and throw the full scientific arsenal at it!!
why worry about pesticides?, after all, most of them were developed as human poisons during the last century!!
etc, etc, etc, ................
I tried to be a chemist once but all those hard sums about quantum physics baffled me.
It`s the same with `organic`-I like my odd cigar but nicotine(organic) is banned as a lethal poison.
Feed the soil,look after wildlife and have fun gardening is my philosophy
Quote from: tonybloke on May 08, 2009, 21:07:52
Quote from: labrat on May 08, 2009, 20:59:03
I only go 'organic' so far as it involves recycling materials I have at hand and saving money. Otherwise when I need a quick hit I'll use a non-organic fertiliser. I'm not worried about it. Why sacrifice all the scientific knowledge we've accumulated in the design and use of non-organic fertilisers?
why bother worrying about steroids, lets feed our kids on them!!
why worry about the soil? lets all just use the soil as an inert medium and throw the full scientific arsenal at it!!
why worry about pesticides?, after all, most of them were developed as human poisons during the last century!!
etc, etc, etc, ................
absolute twaddle.
Tens of thousands of children are prescribed steroids every year. As are millions of women. In fact everyone consumes small amounts of steroid in tap water which often ends up on plants. Plants contain steroids and steroid precursors. Many medicinal steroids are produced from soya.
Science has never nor will ever consider soil an inert medium. Scientists understood what was happening in soil a long time before anyone else did.
Pesticides have never been designed or developed as human poisons. Unless you consider Nazi Germany as standard governmental practice. Pesticides are harmful, that's their job but they are a great deal less harmful to humans. If you knew the slightest thing about biochemistry you'd know that. Despite the widespread use of pesticides in the past, life expectancy has gone up and up on the back of greater supply of diverse foodstuffs and synthetic medicinal chemicals. Life expectancy has still gone up despite the rise of cancers and degenerative diseases, the prevalence of which are substantially a direct result of our longer lifespans.
If you seriously think the world was better in the 19th century or the 18th, 17th, 16th etc. then quiet frankly you are unhinged.
Quoteno one worries about thyroid disorders
A real problem this far inland in the past... OH was hyperthyroid.... could have killed her, she's now hypo, having been nuked!! :-X
Organic growing
Horse muck (or similar word).
I am a serious threat to the organic farmers and others.
I don't buy anything.
why do science boffs get so touchy when you are cynical about their chemicals sheesh!!! ;D Blimey get with the program we are trying to save the planet here! :P
Quote from: cleo on May 08, 2009, 21:17:43
I tried to be a chemist once but all those hard sums about quantum physics baffled me.
Feed the soil,look after wildlife and have fun gardening is my philosophy
The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum theory ranks alongside astrology and divination in my view, so no wonder you couldn't understand it. Logically speaking, it is utter nonsense. Nothing can both exist and not exist simultaneously, except in the fantasy of a mystic, which is what adherents of that theory are. How can anyone carry out probablistic calculations on something they know nothing about? Maybe Niels Bohr should have done like Einstein...........got a mathematician to teach him maths! Sooner or later, science will store away dual existences along with other odd ideas like the ether.
In the meantime, I know that there is a lot I don't know, so I'll play safe and only eat stuff grown without too much interference by man. Anyway. What's wrong with having a few weeds growing around the garden? I'm with you Cleo.
Quote from: labrat on May 08, 2009, 21:22:36
Quote from: tonybloke on May 08, 2009, 21:07:52
Quote from: labrat on May 08, 2009, 20:59:03
I only go 'organic' so far as it involves recycling materials I have at hand and saving money. Otherwise when I need a quick hit I'll use a non-organic fertiliser. I'm not worried about it. Why sacrifice all the scientific knowledge we've accumulated in the design and use of non-organic fertilisers?
why bother worrying about steroids, lets feed our kids on them!!
why worry about the soil? lets all just use the soil as an inert medium and throw the full scientific arsenal at it!!
why worry about pesticides?, after all, most of them were developed as human poisons during the last century!!
etc, etc, etc, ................
Pesticides are harmful, that's their job but they are a great deal less harmful to humans.
If you seriously think the world was better in the 19th century or the 18th, 17th, 16th etc. then quiet frankly you are unhinged.
You bet pesticides are harmful labrat. Here where I live, the countryside is basically dead, thanks to the farmers, who have behave exactly like Nazi Germany now you mention it. Farmers here tolerate nothing but what they want to see on their fields, everything else gets zapped.
The result of this greedy and intolerant behaviour by farmers, our tap water has to be specially treated to make it drinkable, and as we live on a small island, there are no practical alternatives.
Regarding quality of life now and in the past, none of us are in a position to make a comparison, and even if we could, it is subjective rather than objective. Or maybe, like the farmers, we should be intolerant, and force our ideas on others?
Don't get me wrong labrat. I have used modern technology all my working life, and benefitted from it. On the other hand, I know when technology is just plain greedy. Any reasonable person who looks into the development of ship's antifouling paint over the years will readily agree...................technology is sometime a step in the wrong direction.
How many people have long term health conditions caused by pesticides, sheep dip etc & people living on farm boundaries taking the fall out from them. I have ME following from a vaccination & I now react to lots of things. I suffer from several painful conditions & even paracetamol is a no no.
janet
Have just looked up ' Organic ' in the Oxford Dictionary,
- can't quote from it and really no clearer on the subject ! ???
Not really sure if I grow Organic in the fullest sense -- I don't use pesticides, weedkiller
or any chemical sprays, but do use washing up liquid in solution on the roses ? Chemical ?
Do feed my garden [ non edible ] with Phosfrogen , Bonemeal - and Erichasious feed.?
The food plants get my compost from mixed natural waste, and thats it -- oh have used Tomatorite ?
Perhaps not then ?
floss xxx
Frankly with commercially grown fruit and veg it is rather a joke..
Grow your own and you can be in charge of what goes on an into your plants and the soil. Pick it just before you eat or cook it and that way you get the greatest volume of natural goodness.
Keep it a few days in the fridge and you might just as well have bought it at your favourite supermarket.
Quote from: PurpleHeather on May 09, 2009, 20:10:12
Frankly with commercially grown fruit and veg it is rather a joke..
Grow your own and you can be in charge of what goes on an into your plants and the soil. Pick it just before you eat or cook it and that way you get the greatest volume of natural goodness.
Keep it a few days in the fridge and you might just as well have bought it at your favourite supermarket.
agree its one of the joys of growing my own, i literally pick dinner within the hour of it being cooked and the difference in taste is absolutely divine :D