Does anybody have any advice about rotavators? Front tine or rear? I have a Howard Bantam in good condition but it,s getting a bit old now.It,s only a year younger than me!! I,m thinking of updating to a new(er) one but not sure what to go for. Any advice will be welcomed!
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The Howard is about as good as you will get. I wish I could afford one.
Quote from: naff on May 07, 2009, 21:53:59
Does anybody have any advice about rotavators?
Any advice will be welcomed!
My experience is that they can chop up soil into a fine tilth if necessary, but try as you might, they don't go as deep as you can with a spade.
I suppose rotavating is fine to break the surface of a new bed, but after that, I wouldn't dream of walking on the soil where I grow plants.
If your Howard is still doing a job keep with it, you can always replace the engine if necessary and spare parts are available, :)
Pretty much the only way to go from a Bantam would be a Gem......
I always feel that a good spade or fork would be better at digging the soil than having a rotovator chop all the weeds down to make more of the blighters ;D ;D ;D
Rear tined ones although a bit quicker and easier to use with being wheeled and self powered , only dig to a maximum of around 5 to six inches ..
You front tined one will go a lot deeper .
I have both, but think the front tined one is more versatile and gets more use, especially around setting time..
Hi all,
You,re correct Larkshall the Bantam is good but not a wide enough track,it tends to wander a bit!
I,m considering either a Howard 300/350 Gem or a Camon C6/C8.
I changed the engine as soon as I got the Bantam but kept the original Villiers for rebuilding.
The replacement engine is a Kubota 3hp.
Both engine and rotavator came from a landfill/skip site along with a Sheen flamethrower!!
Keep your eyes open at your local tip,people throw some good kit away.
I have an ATCO Merry Tiller and a Mantis Electric.
The Merry Tiller will dig down to 10ins, because I made up a large tine with an agricultural cultivator shoe which stops it galloping across the land. The engine plate is only just above ground level then.
The Mantis can also get down to 10ins, pulling it back towards you and taking it slowly (that's how the video supplied with the machine shows how to do it). Even working slowly over it is quicker than digging.
You can all see what I have but to be truthful I find I get a better job done with a spade, and faster too with less effort.
If you have light soil you don't need a rotavator.
If you have heavy clay the ground needs digging first before machining.
Rotavators give the impression of digging deep but in real life they rarely get down more than 4-5 inches. The fluffed up soil looks deeply dug and though the gardener can be easily fooled, the plants know better.
Rotorvating, the same as ploughing, causes a pan to form in the soil. as the mechanical force that lifts the soil is equalled by a force that pushes down on the underlying soil.
Digging with a spade, or even no-dig gardening avoids the deep compaction of mechanical soil-turning.
Thoughts on the matter? anyone?
(Farmers are switching to 'minimum till' style of grain growing, to avoid chemical run-off, and capping of the soil.and they save on the diesel, and man-hours of cultivation.)
Quote from: tonybloke on May 09, 2009, 00:40:52
Rotorvating, the same as ploughing, causes a pan to form in the soil. as the mechanical force that lifts the soil is equalled by a force that pushes down on the underlying soil.
Digging with a spade, or even no-dig gardening avoids the deep compaction of mechanical soil-turning.
Thoughts on the matter? anyone?
I'd say the matter is complex. Basically, the tines act just like a fan or a propeller. Newton's laws are infallible in our physical world, and where there is a lifting force there will also be a force in the other direction. Most of the downward force will bend the tines slightly making them quiver as they go round. I suppose the bent tines could be thought to have a mild compacting effect, but I'd say it is the machine bouncing that does the worst damage, plus the wheels.
I've dug 12 beds now in my garden. 9 are "double dug" by hand, and the last 3 (I couldn't face the work) were rotavated just last week. The first 9 are producing fine. The last 3 will be used next year. I have piled seaweed and red clover mowings on the last 3 beds.
I have to say that manual digging leaves some big lumps of clay that must later be broken down further, while rotavating makes a dust bowl (Ohio? Oklahoma?). At this this stage, I just wish I had the energy to hand dig the last 3 beds. I am disappointed with the rotavator result.
I winter dig my plot and let the frosts go to work on the soil but then in spring I rotovate.....makes life much easier for me.
Newton to the best of my knowledge never ploughed a field. My understanding of the mechanical process is that there is very little downward force when ploughing or rotavating other than the dead weight of the machine and driver. Most of this downward force is supported (resisted) by the soil surface not the base. The plouging or rotavating forces are a combination of forward motion and rotation. The sod is sliced and flipped upside down.
I'm in two minds about the pan and tend to think it is not what it seems. We tend to see it when a rotavator has thrown all the soil away and it looks smooth but in reality it is simply the end of one layer and the start of another. Its importance will vary considerably according to local geological conditions. This boundary between topsoil and subsoil is less pronounced on land regularly dug by spade due largely to the fact that spade diggers tend to add more organic matter to the soil. Over time this creates a greater depth of topsoil leaving/creating a third layer in the middle consisting of improved subsoil and degraded topsoil.
Modern farmers do not generally add any organic matter to the soil therefore after allowing for erosion the soil level will be slightly diminished each year and as a result the ploughshare is scraping the top of the subsoil.
For thousands of years man has ploughed the land without problems but in the space of a few decades the land has been destroyed instead of improved. Farmers have to plough shallow now because there is no longer the depth of soil in some places to permit deep cultivation.
I have a ardisam badger, bloody brilliant bit of kit.......mowers-online.co.uk......the only front tine machine that does like a rear tine one and it goes down deep.. 8)
newton may not have ploughed a field, but what has that got to do with the question??
for a plough to lift and turn the soil, an equal amount of force must push down.the downward foce is via the sole-plate of the plough.
the pan is measurable, and farmers regularly use long tined cultivators to break up the pan ( a practice known as subsoiling)
I do attend an Agricultural / Horticultural college, BTW, and have enquired of the Agric lecturers about this!
due to the rising costs of fertilisers, and also possible contamination of groundwater sources, a lot of farmers are starting to incorporate a lot of organic matter back into the soil, and some modern drills are aggressive enough to not even need ploughing before they can operate on the field, they just drill ditrect into last years stubble!!
;)
I winter dig, spread muck, also ROTAVATE and spray anything that wants to come and have ago, :)
Quotefor a plough to lift and turn the soil, an equal amount of force must push down.the downward force is via the sole-plate of the plough.
But ploughs hardly lift the soil at all and when they do it is as a result of forward motion of the share. This is reacted by the equal and opposite force of the tractor wheels. The s
od is rotated not lifted, the main forces are turning forces caused by the forward motion and the shape of the ploughshare. No plough yet made is capable of operating while the tractor is at standstil. Correct digging with a spade uses very similar forces and the primary reason for so many folk having difficulty using the spade is due to their insistence of attempting to lift the lump.
Surely when farmers use subsoiling machines this is to disturb the subsoil not the mythical pan. Because no or very little humus is added to the field the plough will always cut to the subsoil with no margin. The pan as you know it is simply the sudden transition from one layer to another.
the 'mythical pan'
http://southeastfarmpress.com/mag/farming_soils_pan_layer/
the rhs on the subject
http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profiles0206/soil_cultivation.asp
Of course, if you blokes had been around when the Agricultural Research Station at Rothamsted published its report on the comparitive effects of digging, ploughing and rotovating on soil fertility you wouldn`t want to be using rotovators anyway. It was entirely as a result of that report that I gave up my 6hp Howard Gem and reverted initially to the spade and subsequently to the deep-bed no dig method
Quote from: Kepouros on May 09, 2009, 23:06:08
Of course, if you blokes had been around when the Agricultural Research Station at Rothamsted published its report on the comparitive effects of digging, ploughing and rotovating on soil fertility you wouldn`t want to be using rotovators anyway. It was entirely as a result of that report that I gave up my 6hp Howard Gem and reverted initially to the spade and subsequently to the deep-bed no dig method
Well I own up to having rotavated 3 out of 12 new beds, and I also own up to wishing I hadn't rotavated. The result cannot compare with proper hand digging, and I shall have to dig it all through anyway to incorporate mown clover and seaweed.
And I agree that once a bed has been properly dug to start with, it shouldn't need digging again unless it gets compacted for some reason.
Thanks for all the replies! I,m going to pick up a Howard 350 that I bought on ebay yesterday so the Howard Bantam and spare engine will be for sale/ebayed today.