Yet another baby torn to pieces by 'family pets'.
How many more young lives have to be lost before the keeping of these killers is banned.
i'm going to make an assumption that you are pointing the finger at the staffordshire bull terrier breed when you say "killers" and not the dear old adorable jack russell?.
i am a very proud owner of an adorable loving and might i add gentle stafford and it really frustrates me when people refer to them as "devil dogs" or in your case "killers".
it is tragic that a young child has been killed and my heart goes out to the family but you can't tar a whole breed with the same brush.
if you do a little search on stafford's you will find that the kennel club refers to them as "the nanny dog" because of their gentle ways with children.
my friends kids play with mine all the time when they come round and far from trying to kill them all she wants to do is lick their ears and play with her toys!.
are you now going to label jack russels as killers? lets be honest a poodle is capable of killing a child what would you say if that happened?.
Some dogs are bred purely for their fighting abilities, pit bulls and rottweilers spring to mind immediately, but while Staffies look fierce, and are indeed very strong, powerful dogs, their temperament is generally 'soft as a brush', this is from somebody who used to despise them.
I venture to suggest that the temperament of a jack russell is probably worse.
Accidents happen, and you can't ban everything.
I firmly believe no-one should ever trust any dog 100%.Not fair to the dog. You can't read it's mind and you can never assume it likes everything we do or say. We've always had dogs, sometimes two together.We've been very lucky to have dogs with non aggresive natures. All have been rescue dogs and all different breeds. The children were never left unsupervised with them, and if we weren't happy the dog was taken out of the equation. It's vital to teach youngsters to respect animals. When I was small I was bitten by our Retriever. I got a telling off as I had teased her with a biscuit.She got a wallop. Lesson learned by me.I cried because I was responsible for her getting a whack.
I feel so very sad for the family, but I can't help thinking about the Grandmother, she must feel about as bad as you possibly can.
Yes I'm with you there Emaggie, all dogs are potential killers, it is up to the owners to try to nurture a dog that is under control and parents to instill a healthy caution in children once they get to a cerain age.
I love my retriever implicitly, he has never shown any agression to anyone, would I trust him with an infant? No, not ever.
And to answer another point, I'd trust a Staffie over a Jack Russell any day of the week.
Rottweilers are a cattle herding breed. used by the police and fire service on the continent. they were used as herding dogs for centuries, the romans used them! they got their name from the town of rottweil, in germany, where the railhead and cattle yards were. the dogs would herd cattle for hundreds of miles to the rail head, and then be abandoned there. so many got left that the breed got it's name from the town they are a Mastiff type, gentle as a lamb by nature, any one that is not like this has been abused. they like to walk a minimum of 5 miles per day, a lady with a riding school reckons her rottie does 30 miles per day! Just because they are a big dog, it does not make them killers, it's the owners that are the issue!!
I must answer this thread, having another, very loving, mad as a brush staffie..she'd rather lick than bite..a beautiful nature.
I never leave her in the room with my grandson..not because of her but we had a 9 month old highland terrier when my eldest was 18 months..I stepped over the gate into the kitchen, heard it snap, twice, and found it had ripped part of my son's nose off and nearly blinded him..he had to have 22 stitches in his little face so, it's not just big dogs :-\
we were told by the vet it had been too closely bred :-\
My parents bought a Rough Collie pup in the 80's. He was a beautiful dog, Lassie type but boy he could not be trained. At around a year old he started to attack my Dad. In fact Dad couldn't pull the curtains, put coal on the fire and Rory attacked him, teeth bared. In the end, he had to be put to sleep. Vet said he was too closely bred. I do feel for the Grandmother in this case. so sad. for them all.
I don't have a dog and never have had one. I am not a person that likes animals for several reasons. They moult their coats everywhere, they need to be 'cleared up' after and I would not trust even the most docile of dogs with children. Although I don't like animals, I would never mistreat one or would never like to see one suffer. My thoughts on this tragic incident is that perhaps the dog was jealous of the grandmother's attention on the grandchild. Attention that would have normally been made on the dog. Sometimes I have found that dog owners are too quick to say that their animal wouldn't harm a fly. Like humans dogs can turn at any time. with the most tragic of consequences.There is nothing more precious than our children so we should always err on the side of caution, Children need to be bought up around dogs but as someone else said, they must be taught to treat them with respect. My heart goes out to the parents and to the grandparent. I doubt that they will ever be able to forgive themself for this. I have a young grandson and find myself on edge if I take him to the park especially when a loose dog bounds over and the owner says' Don't worry he won't touch the baby' How can they guarantee this? Sorry if my reply offends any dog owners, it is not intended, just my views on this situation.
I would not trust any dog with a child.
I adore my dogs but I know they would find the attentions of very young children confusing as they have little experience of them,apart from odd visits from the grandchildren.
My collie probably would be OK but not my west Highland Terrier.She has an unpredictable nature.A lot of terriers are this way.
Best not to risk it in my opinion. :)
Carol,you mentioned pulling the curtains,My westie can not stand us pulling the blinds she jumps up our legs barking,we have tried all sorts but she still does it,have to remember to close the door on her before we pull them now.
Would love to know why she does this. ???
Quote from: Jeanbean on February 07, 2009, 19:56:28
I don't have a dog and never have had one. I am not a person that likes animals for several reasons. They moult their coats everywhere, they need to be 'cleared up' after
So why not shave them.......or wear marigolds ;D
As I said I would never be cruel to an animal. Obviously you would. :(
Quote from: Jeanbean on February 07, 2009, 20:34:21
As I said I would never be cruel to an animal. Obviously you would. :(
In actual fact jean i have 2 dogs one a border collie and a labrador cross which i clean up after and that includes
moulting hair and their crap.....these dogs are healthy and have been no way harmed in the production of this reply
;D ;D
Jeanbean, don't be offended. Thespade08 was being amusing.
We can't all be animal lovers. Those of us that do make up for those of us that don't. ;)
Emagggie that is such a true saying. As my old dad yous to say 'It takes allsorts to make Bassetts'. I wasn't offended just a bit taken back by the suggestions.
Absolutely agree that children should never be left alone with any dog. My KC Spaniel adores the Grandchildren. 2 of my Granddaughters (7&9) love feeding Elsa with her small bits of Bakers but never unless I am in the room. When the 2 little Grandchildren come Elsa is put out the room, she is too boisterous with them.
As for not liking animals I don't like cats, would never harm them and when my husband was alive we always had at least one, he loved all animals. I always said flipping things get fed before I even have my first cuppa, can't bear it when they get on my lap or rub round my legs!!!!
I am cat sitter from 14th for a week when young Lorna (next door) with Joshua and Joshua's Dad go to Las Vegas. I will worry about Laura if I let her out and she doesn't come when I call her so I will be back and forwards until she is back indoors.
My heart goes out to the family, so very sad.
"Gwent Police family liaison officers are currently supporting and assisting the family through this difficult time.
"The family wish to be left alone to grieve.
"Although the exact circumstances of the baby's death are yet to be established, we would like to reiterate the advice given to dog owners that dogs should never be left unsupervised with young children at any time."
*************************
The message is the same every time. When are people going to learn. All dogs are capable of killing, that's how they get food in the wild. When we domesticate them, they still retain their instincts. Much as we love our Terriers, we are always mindfull of what they are capable of. Sorry if this sounds a little terse but they are just the facts. My heartfelt condolences go to the family.
I love my dog and he is very well trained but I would never leave him alone with a child, my chickens or even in a shut room with my cats - the chase and hunt instinct is just so strong in many dogs.
Neither of these dogs are the type normally blamed for this sort of tragedy but many family pets are given trust because they are so soppy and I'm afraid its better not to take the risk
This case is a tragedy, I really feel for the family.
I know of two dogs (separated by many years and miles and different breeds) that have for no apparent reason turned on a companion dog and savaged it to death. Both dogs were put to sleep immediately.
Dogs and children should never be left alone together. Dogs need discipline and clear concise commands. Children make random sounds and movements which can confuse and threaten a dog.
The West Highland Terrier is so pretty,they have a adorable smile and look like butter would not melt.............
You are tempted to treat them as a lap dog........
However they were bred as ratters,when mine sees a mole hill she smells and wants to be at it.........
You have to respect your animals for what they are.
My collie has never been near a sheep but she loves to herd us if she gets a chance..............It,s in them.
We kept Jack Russell terriers when we had the farm specifically for vermin control, because that is what they were bred for. Our Jack Russell, Peter, loved to sit on your knee for a cuddle but as soon as he saw a rat or rabbit nothing could hold him back. He was very much a Jekyll & Hyde character. We loved him dearly but we would never, ever leave him in a room alone with a baby.
Our Sammie was a Great Dane/GSD cross & 99.99% of the time was the biggest wimp going. Loud bangs of any description or raised voices terrified him (& we'are talking a dog the same size as a shetland pony here!!!!). However, one night whilst out with him for his last walk he started acting very, very aggressive. His hackles went up in a manner I had never seen before & he had all his teeth bared & he was growling (which is something I only heard him do once up until this point). His actions weren't aimed at me but at a car full of lads hidden behind a hedge ( I live in the countryside) that I had neither seen nor heard.
Sammie was warning them away from his "mum" but it was such atypical behaviour for him it left me very shocked as it was a reminder of what he COULD do if sufficiently provoked.
CC
Sadly it is not the breed of dog that is a problem. Unless a dog has a mental defect , any breed of dog cab be raised to be obedient and with social manners, but put into the hands of folks who either bait them to fight,or neglect them to be given the training they need and dog can be potentially a threat.
As many folks seem unable to raise children these days how on earth can they be able to rear a sound animal.
Good dog owners know it is essential to train a dog, they do not bring them selves up.
This is where the fault lies in my opinion.
XX Jeannine
We got a dog from the RSPCA some years ago. He was ok with kids although never left alone with them. I had my daughter stayin with me at the time and she started taking he dog up with her for company. My grand-daughter who lived just around the corner and who had visited almost daily, started to come round before school in the morning so that my daughter could braid her hair for her. She was sitting in the kitchen when the dog suddenly went for her foot. Obviously jealous of the attention my daughter was giving to her. I think we have to remember that dogs are not humans and must be kept in their place. My son has had him in Co Durham for the last 5 years with their 2 children and he has been fine.
I beleive that you can include a dog of any breed into your home and family by using a
good supply of common sense , discipline and love.
My one and only dog was a German Shepherd we had the privilage of knowing for nearly
twelve years. He was gentle, kind and sociable - giving people there first ever encounter
of a ' fuss ' with this breed. We were running a Pub so he had to learn very quickly to fit
in which he did, learning the rules and a fuss from us all when he did ' good '.
I never , ever took for granted that this dog was beyond reproach - he was to us because
we were very careful to " protect " him and others in any adverse situations.
Had a nightmare situation with a neighbours Jack Russell [ only mention breed as his size was
significant ]. We were on our own playing ball some yards from home, when the JR hurtled up from
nowhere - he'd got out. The JR was on his hind legs under my dogs throat - he could of attacked at
any moment. My dog froze and raised his head slightly, all I could do was to firmly order ' leave it '
over and over again. My dog could have killed it with one shake, the other could have caught an artery
in his kneck -- We seemed to be in a time warp for ever, no sound except the barred teeth and
snarling of the little dog, and me shaking like a leaf. The owner turned up and called her dog off.!
Without the training and the trust that our dog had in me, the situation could have been tragic for
both of them.
They have to learn the rules and obey them, no question ! The tone of your voice with commands
is usualy enough.
floss xxx
Quote from: Emagggie on February 07, 2009, 18:35:58
I firmly believe no-one should ever trust any dog 100%.Not fair to the dog. You can't read it's mind and you can never assume it likes everything we do or say. We've always had dogs, sometimes two together.We've been very lucky to have dogs with non aggresive natures. All have been rescue dogs and all different breeds. The children were never left unsupervised with them, and if we weren't happy the dog was taken out of the equation. It's vital to teach youngsters to respect animals. When I was small I was bitten by our Retriever. I got a telling off as I had teased her with a biscuit.She got a wallop. Lesson learned by me.I cried because I was responsible for her getting a whack.
I feel so very sad for the family, but I can't help thinking about the Grandmother, she must feel about as bad as you possibly can.
similar experiences here as well and i couldn't agree with you more about the grandmother, i really feel for her, can't imagine how she felt having to call the babe's parents with that news. its such a horrible thing to have to live through i really feel for the family.
I am terrified of all dogs, no matter how soppy, big or small. I was attacked by a beagle when I was about 7, he mauled my back and I ended up in hopsital having surgery to have the hole repaired. Then my sister was desperate for a dog, so when I was a young teenage, mum and dad brought her an Old English Sheepdog. Toby. He was beautiful, but he had a mean streak. He protected my mum passionately. One day when I was playing with him, he turned and had my face - took a massive lump out of my nose - it could so easily have been my eyes. Fortunately dad was there and pulled Toby off of me. They wanted to have him put down but I was heartbroken, said it was my fault for playing with him and begged them not to do it. They gave in....but a year later he turned on me again and nearly bit my finger off. I now have no feeling in the bottom of my middle finger on my left hand. At that point he was put down and an autopsy showed he had a brain tumour. I don't know if that had anything to do with it, or not but I was heartbroken. However, this has left me with a phobia of dogs. In my job as a gardener, I often end up in gardens with a dog roaming, and I am incredibly brave, stand my ground and try my best to show no fear and so far, so good. However, I have taught my children never to approach a dog, even if the owner says it is okay, it only takes one quick snap and the child is scarred for life. These are wild animals, workers. My James was snapped at by a family friends dog and that has put him off completely.
Please don't class whole breeds as killers! as this thread says, any dog is capable. In this circumstance if one dog started it, no matter which it was, the other would back it up .... pack instinct.
I have owned a pair of Jack Russells for over 15 years, from puppies. One had a couple of instances with delivery men. The other didn't like children, she never harmed one, but if they came round it used to stress her out, she used to run round after them, trying to nip their fingers. So a great deal of respect is needed if you are going to continue to keep them.
I then owned a Staffy, who had the most softest nature I ever saw. He was rescue and sadly only owned him for 2 years before he got so ill. He was the greatest ambassador for his breed.
Now I have another rescue staff, He has no problems with humans but hates other dogs. As I am a responsible owner, I never let him off lead in a place where he might cause a prob. I always take him with my staffy cross to a place where he will not meet other dogs to let him off lead. And avoid any confrontation in the streets. I am guessing he is like this as no training was put in place before we got him at 5 years old. I am just picking up the pieces of what someone else did wrong. I feel that if you have a strong and powerful dog you need to be in control and training is a must. I think that to class them all as killers is just wrong. You get out what you put in.
We need to look at the other end of the lead. I expect some chav type had my dog before me, did everything wrong and then didn't like the result and got rid.
I too strongly believe that there should be licenced breeders. And owners too really. There are so many measures that could be put in place. Compulsory training as pups, compulsory neutering if not a reg breeder. This would then stop the supply outstripping demand and so many staffies and other dogs ending up in dogs homes or worse in the 7 day pound waiting to be put to sleep.
One last thought: more people kill children than what dogs do!
I would never class one breed, or even a particular group of breeds as killers. As I said, I was attacked by a Beagle and an Old English Sheepdog, and my son was snapped at by a Laggotto - some fancy italian water dog. No, they didn't kill, but you can see the capability.
Don't like dogs and would never trust them. :-X ;D ;D ;D
Like EJ I am terrified of dogs, that is other peoples. Probably sounds daft as we have had dogs all of my married life, my lovely Labradors for 20 years also German Shepherds although the G.S's were never house dogs and now my "pest" of a KC Cavalier. I wouldn't go in to my son's house for 6 years because he had a German Shepherd then the Christmas following Charlie's death we were all going to John's for Christmas Dinner. He put Shelby in another room but when he had to bring her through to let her in the garden I was brave and said let her come to me, I now love her to bits but always make John hold her until she hears my voice. I was also bit as an 11 year old but thank goodness not as bad as EJ's.
Nothing annoys me more than when a dog bounds up to me and the owner shouts "He is just being friendly!!" If they can't control them put them on a lead.
Lorna, I couldn't agree with you more. As my last post said, My boy is not good with other dogs so I keep him on a lead. Then there are those people who just let their dogs run riot, who will then run up to me with mine on lead. Its always a worry when this situation arises. They shout to their dog but of course he takes no notice! I have one regular numpty who simply doesn't learn.
EJ, I wasn't replying directly at you in my last post, please don't think I was. I was more trying to reply to the lady who started this thread, as she was so quick to judge dogs as a breed (killers). I'm sure she's so qualified to do so having owned both a staffordshire bull terrier and a jack russell. Mmm probably not, so not the best person to pass comment really. Staffordshires really do have the sweetest of nature, they just wanna please their owners, which is why the chav type person can get them into such trouble.
Dogs should be made owners responsibility by means of registration etc and owners made to carry the can for their dogs actions. Its usually a human problem rather than a dog problem.
This was an unfortunate situation and I feel for the family of the baby. But its just an accident. We don't know all the facts as yet. Like the young lad that fell under the ice, what we gonna do get rid of all the ponds in Britain? All very sad.
jesssands very well said couldn't agree more :-*
Like you all, I feel very much for the child's grandmother - this is something she will have to live with for the rest of her life. I haven't checked, but most of the cases where a child has been mauled by a dog, the dog is in its own home and the child the visitor - would this make a difference to the dog's behaviour?
I agree entirely that certain breeds are outright dangerous. Some dogs of otherwise placid breed can also bite. I would however say that Homo sapiens needs to look in the mirror first. More children suffer at the hands of people than they do dogs. And furthermore, many people should not keep dogs because they do not understand them.
My advice to any potential dog owner is to contact Dog's Trust. THEY understand dogs, and there you will get first class advice on how to treat your dog.
I have a greyhound / colley cross, rescued from awful owners. She was labelled a "problem dog", but I can say, hand on heart, after learning from Dog's Trust how to be a responsible dog owner, I have now the most faithful, affectionate friend who I trust with my grandson.
I have a rough coated JR and although I love her to bits - I would not leave her alone with young children. I believe you have to think along the lines a pack of dogs might think. Dogs are essentially pack animals and live in a system of hierarchy where the strongest dog is "top dog" and the rest work things out so they all know where they stand in the pecking order. So perhaps as far as my dog is concerned, she is third in line in our pack. Therefore if we were to introduce another "member" into our "pack" she would naturally trying to make sure she stayed 3rd in line and the new member knew its place - which as far as she would be concerned would be behind her. This would be achieved by the 3rd member of the pack challenging the introduced member to decide their standing within the pack. So, my theory is if you leave a dog with a new member of the family (ie. new baby) then the dog might attack the baby to maintain its position in the "pack". Does any of this make sense?
Twinkletoes
Quote from: twinkletoes on February 10, 2009, 16:34:19
I have a rough coated JR and although I love her to bits - I would not leave her alone with young children. I believe you have to think along the lines a pack of dogs might think. Dogs are essentially pack animals and live in a system of hierarchy where the strongest dog is "top dog" and the rest work things out so they all know where they stand in the pecking order. So perhaps as far as my dog is concerned, she is third in line in our pack. Therefore if we were to introduce another "member" into our "pack" she would naturally trying to make sure she stayed 3rd in line and the new member knew its place - which as far as she would be concerned would be behind her. This would be achieved by the 3rd member of the pack challenging the introduced member to decide their standing within the pack. So, my theory is if you leave a dog with a new member of the family (ie. new baby) then the dog might attack the baby to maintain its position in the "pack". Does any of this make sense?
Twinkletoes
Exactly my thoughts. My border collie has not got a bad bone in his body, but I would not leave him alone with any of the grand children. His bloodline goes back to a wild dog or wolf so the pack attitude is hiding there somewhere.
Sounds right to me.
Sorry Jesssands, I wasn't directing my reply to you, but I wanted to emphasise that all dogs, whatever their breed, have the capability of biting someone, and I agree that you can't just accuse certain breeds as being killers.
Just seen this one and had to add my two pence worth.
Dogs are much like kids, bring them up right, teach them social skills , consequences, and manners, be their teacher and be the grown up (or top dog) and unless the dog has a mental defect things should work out.
I bred and showed dogs for many years, it was the major part of my life until a few years ago.. would I trust a dog with a baby, no probably not ..as all kinds of accidents can happen not always because of temperament... would I trust a 3/4 year old child with a baby..no for much the same reasons.
Rotties, Staffies,Dobies etc are charming animals, sadly they often attract the wrong owner and are left to bring themselves up.. like children they need to know boundaries and praise, without those fundamental basic skills anything can happen and sadly does.
I firmly believe it is not the dogs fault,unless defective. I had only 1 dog who ever caused a problem, he turned on me and I sadly had him destroyed,I asked for a PM and they found a brain tumour.He was an OES.
XX Jeannine
Quote from: Jeannine on March 20, 2009, 15:29:51
Just seen this one and had to add my two pence worth.
Dogs are much like kids, bring them up right, teach them social skills , consequences, and manners, be their teacher and be the grown up (or top dog) and unless the dog has a mental defect things should work out.
Some one should try teaching this one. (he ain't mine)
(http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt13/DarkHorse_bucket/DangerousDog.jpg)