Did anyone watch this? Jimmy from "Jimmy's Farm" investigating GM crops. Some interesting thoughts.
Here's the link for iplayer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00fsxq6/Horizon_Jimmys_GM_Food_Fight/
My wife changed channels when I started shouting at the tv. I like the guy, but the science was poor. He said that selecting Sea Kale to give different varieties of Brassica is the same as Genetically Modifying plants. This is absolute nonsense. You can select all you like but you'll never end up with genetic information that belongs in a fish, inside a tomato!
GM takes it one step further than selection, and by the time we changed over this hadn't been made even vaguely clear. Maybe he rectified this later?
I did think he was good at pointing out how complicated it is - I have a brother & sister who both do things with DNA (as academics); One thinks GMing is cool, the other thinks it is absurdly dangerous to be releasing stuff that is far from completely understood. If the scientists can't agree, what hope for us mere mortals?
My view is that it could be great, but we (humans) will find a way to screw it up!
???
Hmm, know what you mean Ollie. My instinctive response is to be anti GM. I am not a scientist and watched the programme in the hope of learning something. Net result was the same as I had always thought: it's ok for us in the well fed west to bleat about adulterated crops, but try telling that to someone whose crops will be saved and he/she will then be able to feed an otherwise starving family.
At least the programme was there, maybe it will make some more people think?
:-\
I feel quite strongly about this as I believe that we are in danger of decimating this planet of its food chain.
Everything needs everything we have, and that includes us
The food chain which keeps us all alive - and every living creature we share this planet with are all dependant on each other. Break this chain and we and the creatures that are helpless in the hands of
those that would reach into the abbys of alternative science -- they should take a long hard look
at what is essential for the good of the planet --- not just humankind.
Now this leads to those who are starving in Africa and the children of thier next generations who will doubtfully survive famine and drought, to me this down to supplying of so called leaders of these countries
with money only for the reason of keeping out communism and with no thought of where the money goes
-- usually into thier own pockets and not to the helpless people who need food !
What can you do ?
GM crops could save thier lives --- or a change in the political attitude towards the despots that '' run ''
these countries could and should make a differance.
floss
gm is bad (imo)
i can only talk about what happens in rats and i will have to look out the details but
rats fed on gm products had bad things go wrong with them
lbb
i will try and find the details in my stuff.
Did you know that we understand about 5% of the human Genome... The other 95% is called "junk" because nobody knows exactly what it does. How arrogant and stupid can we be to call everything we don't understand "junk"?!?!
LBB - was it something to do with the bacteria in the rat's guts were found to contain a section of DNA contained within the GM feed they'd had?
Ollie c, please will you explain , what is '' Genome '' and what is called ' junk ' ?,
and what do you mean by '' arrogant and stupid '' ?
Sorry to be so ' fick ' but thought this was an educated discussion ?
floss
:-\
Oh Eck, thought it was just an interesting point...
I didn't see the programme in question and I used to be undecided about GM until I watched a documentary about Monsanto (big american GM firm) which frightened the living daylights out of me. Anyone who is interested in the subject should google the firm and watch the documentaries. The ideas of "terminator genes" and "round-up ready plants" which they use and the way they are decimating the way of life in mexico and india is chilling.
GM is a very dangerous thing - we are making a huge presumption by messing with nature and thinking we understand it, whether our aims are good or not. In the US firms like Monsanto are self regulating (i.e. not really regulated at all).
Interestingly, I also recently read an article perporting that organic farming methods were being taught to african farmers by groups in the UK and they were beginning to use them with great results. Perhaps the answers are more simple than GM?
Just food for thought!
Erm, didn't see the program myself so can't comment on that but aren't GM crops modified to be sterile?
So your farmer cannot keep seeds from GM crops to plant for following years. I imagine this is done so that every year said farmer has to but seeds from the manufacturers, so big $$$$ for them and kick in the teeth for a third world farmer with little money.
Now what would happen if this planned sterility crossed over into non-GM crops and they became infertile? Less diversity and more reliance on GM crops, and so a vicious circle until there's no choice but to eat GM crops.
BTW has anyone read that book, 'Death of Grass'? Could be a reality one day.
Cheerio.
Jon
Sorry Katine, but you have introduced a controversial issue that people are going
to want to express their oppinions on ?
It is an interesting point and I hope we can discuss it further ?
floss
gm potatoes treated to produce an insectiside lectin, which is harmles to us and to rats
rats fed gm potatoes (ones sold in america right now)
suffered damaged immune systems, they had sluggish white blood cells, left them more open to disease
they had smaller less developed brains, livers and testicles.
some had enlarged pancreas and intestines
damaged thymus and spleen
atrophy of the liver
significant structure changes and proliferation of cells in stomach and intestines which may signal increased potential for cancer
this was from Pusztai, the world's expert on lectins
the rats developed the problems after only 10 days, some of the changes persisted for 110 days, coresponding to 10 years in a human
the gm potatoes were also found to have up to 20% less protien than the parent plants
little babybird, thanks for that info !
Knowone likes rats -- but could all those ailments be transfered to the human system ?
We should be very carefull where we tread -- it is a very dangerous path.
floss
Thanks for the iplayer link Katie, reckon I've gotta watch this tonite. Pippy I remember the Monsanto documentary...like you, it scared me.
Quote from: FLOSSY on November 26, 2008, 20:02:26
Ollie c, please will you explain , what is '' Genome '' and what is called ' junk ' ?,
and what do you mean by '' arrogant and stupid '' ?
Sorry to be so ' fick ' but thought this was an educated discussion ?
floss
Already I'm getting out of my depth - but a genome is a collection of genes & other stuff... we understand a bit, but nowhere near everything.
Loads of the information contained in the genome isn't understood & is referred to as "Junk DNA". I'm suggesting that we (humans in general & possibly some scientists) are arrogant to think that everything we don't understand is "junk"... We simply don't know enough about what goes on.
Sorry, Katy - I think you've started a great topic!
I read your "quotes" and therefore didn't think they were your words Ol, so agreed with your sentiments entirely :)
Perhaps we ought to remember that the world actually does produce enough food to feed its human (and other populations) well already. The distribution of food is the problem and sorry to say when "western" populations use 7.5 times the world resources to live, someone somewhere loses out.
By the way I agree with being a little scared of multinationals like Monsanto - they are not in this for kind words they are in it to make money. When a monoculture which GM crops will become are eventually attacked by some disease what will the poorer nations fall back on?
The science bits - why do this just because we can?
soy, maize, sorghum, canola, alfalfa, and cotton are roundup ready in the states and they are developing roundup ready wheat!
roundup ready basicly means the product is immune to roundup so the farmer can spray the field to kil the weeds before harvest and harvest a clean crop
Quote from: OllieC on November 26, 2008, 20:55:14
Quote from: FLOSSY on November 26, 2008, 20:02:26
Ollie c, please will you explain , what is '' Genome '' and what is called ' junk ' ?,
and what do you mean by '' arrogant and stupid '' ?
Sorry to be so ' fick ' but thought this was an educated discussion ?
floss
Already I'm getting out of my depth - but a genome is a collection of genes & other stuff... we understand a bit, but nowhere near everything.
Loads of the information contained in the genome isn't understood & is referred to as "Junk DNA". I'm suggesting that we (humans in general & possibly some scientists) are arrogant to think that everything we don't understand is "junk"... We simply don't know enough about what goes on.
Sorry, Katy - I think you've started a great topic!
Research is now suggesting that some of this "junk DNA" is actually involved in regulation of genes e.g switching them on and off so it actually has a very important role.
Thank you OllieC ,
I appreciate your reply , I understand more now that you have explained the
terminology,
Katy, hope I didn't offend -- it is a great topic and i thank you for it,
floss xxx
very good debate started thanks Katy, i am not for GM for alot of the reasons already stated here. as it has been rightly said before we really do not know where this science will lead us and what the end result is, hence why i think it should not be realised on this poor brow beaten planet of ours.
Quote from: Suzanne on November 26, 2008, 21:01:49
Perhaps we ought to remember that the world actually does produce enough food to feed its human (and other populations) well already. The distribution of food is the problem and sorry to say when "western" populations use 7.5 times the world resources to live, someone somewhere loses out.
By the way I agree with being a little scared of multinationals like Monsanto - they are not in this for kind words they are in it to make money. When a monoculture which GM crops will become are eventually attacked by some disease what will the poorer nations fall back on?
The science bits - why do this just because we can?
i agree completely.
:-\
OK, I understand it's a bit of a difficult subject, but you know when we keep seeds for a certain veg, is that not genetic manipulation? We keep it for the right reasons, and I am not saying anyone is up to sommat sneaky...
???
man has always bred plants and animals to either maintain and improve on a particular trait or to reduce or remove a trait not deemed needed or necessary.
the difference with GM crops is the manipulation of the genes by adding a gene from another plant species or even animal species. now i think that is messing with nature one step to far. a monkey wouldn't mate with a goat and a poppy can't pollinate a courgette and i think there is a good reason for this and if mankind continues with GM production we'll soon find out why nature hasn't done this on its own :-\.
I agree with the view that it's 'absurdly dangerous' to mess in major ways with the genome of any plant, when we can't possibly know what the outcomes might be - and then growing them in the open where they can cross with wild plants. If a simple change of environment can make a monster of an existing plant like Japanese Knotweed, who's to say what a rogue new plant breed could do? Insanity!
People say 'ah what about the third world?' but the big corporations are out for themselves; engineering plants to be Roundup-ready means that these impoverished farmers will be forced to buy Roundup, which they can't afford. Plus they're forced to BUY seed each year instead of saving, as they always did before. (And what about genetic diversity?) It locks them into an impossible financial trap. It also encourages the most extreme possible monoculture - very bad for the ecology around the crop, and very bad for the soil, therefore leading to erosion, depletion and drought. Disastrous. Topsoil and water are the two most precious things on which we all depend - many great civilisations have eventually failed by destroying the first and thereby messing up the latter. Read 'Collapse' by Jared Diamond for a fascinating account of how the Greenland Norse, the Maya, and the Anasazi of north America did this. (The USA 1930s dustbowl is another well-known example.) We should move *away* from monoculture, not look for a quick agricultural payback that can't be sustained.
My 2p-worth! :D
Quote from: katynewbie on November 26, 2008, 21:27:31
:-\
OK, I understand it's a bit of a difficult subject, but you know when we keep seeds for a certain veg, is that not genetic manipulation? We keep it for the right reasons, and I am not saying anyone is up to sommat sneaky...
???
katy, i think some one might have said this already but...
i keep the biggest or the most preductive or indeed the most disease resistant seeds to use next year that is selective breeding
the new seeds are still the same family that they started as
in gm seeds a chunk of dna has been added, it could be from a fungi, a bacteria, a frog a fish, anything
i dont think i want to be eating sweetcorn with bits of frog genetics in it.
another thing the junk already discussed gets mixed up a bit when something else is added, just because we dont know what the junk is for doesnt mean we dont need it
talking from memory (no great at the best of times) there is also an issue of geneti switches not working properly as well.
What an interesting thread! I have watched a few of Jimmy's programmes before, and have been interested in the views examined, some obviously the opposite his own such a intensive pig rearing on one 'farm' where they had a piglet day because the pigs all gave birth on the same day!
I will have to watch this one, but I agree with many of the above comments on GM crops. I have a friend who worked for a year growing crops which he realised were GM (which was never advertised obviously), done under the umbrella of a University 'project', conducted in huge tunnels. He told me the modified crops needed huge amounts of fertilisers and pesticides to grow at all, control crops without this failed. Students from many countries including a lot from the far east had been sent to investigate these crops to see if they could improve their own countries situation, but it looked unlikely that they did!
Do countries need GM crops? I guess it depends why they are looking at them? If traditional crops failed because of drought, it is hard to see GM crops requiring huge amounts of chemicals doing well either. Saving seeds form local crops would hopefully result in crops that are the best adapted to that particular environment, but I can see businesses rubbing their hands together at the thought of all the potential purchases required to crop this stuff; seeds every year, fertilisers and pesticides..... good business or out of the kindness of their hearts..............? Cynical old me......!
I may well be out of date now but there were some countrys that refused aid from usa because they thought gm products were not worth the risk.
Quote from: littlebabybird on November 26, 2008, 20:29:39
rats fed gm potatoes (ones sold in america right now)
suffered damaged immune systems [...] this was from Pusztai, the world's expert on lectins
I think this scientist's work has some problems with it - he's been derided by other scientists. We do have to be careful as non-experts, because the media tends to give space to bad science if it makes good news - and I say that as someone who works in the media!
I liked the doc on GM. It looks like with any technology - it's what you do with it, and who controls it that matters.
In uganda it's the government funding research,not for profit but to help the country. When big corporations fund it, it will have to be patented and expensive - that won't help poor people so much.
GM could feed the world - if we let it. But food poverty is a political issue in the end. no one need starve with or without GM.
just listened to the food and farming awards, (radio4) check out the final winner, Geoff tansey, and his work on sustainable food (and the aims of seed companies to control ALL of our food) ;)