Let me first explain the title of this topic. By 'Open Ground in Rows' I mean a plot not divided into beds, but cultivated in the 'old fashioned' way with crops in long rows which you have to walk between to tend the crop. By 'Bed System' i mean a plot divided into regular or irregular fixed beds divided by permanet paths. The beds are either flat or raised up.
I have used the bed system sucessfully for many years on my home veg plot. In contrast i have recently been doing work for a client who has a veg plot laid out in the 'Open Ground' system and it reminded me just what growing veg in that way was like. I have come to the conclusion that the 'Open Ground' system involves far more work in terms of soil preparation and maintainance, for not much if any gain in yeild. You still need to leave ground uncultivated for access to crops, which added up is probably more space than fixed paths would take up under the 'Bed System'! By not having to leave space between every crop for access you can plant much closer together and fit more crops into the space.
I am not trying to preach here, and i would not try to force anyone to grow in a certain way, but i am struggling to understand why so many veg growers continue to use the open ground system (other than its the traditional way). What are the advantages to growing in this way?
Sticking my head out ( no don't chop it off yet) I think it is probably a combination of things.
Some people prefer consistency and probably stick to the "field" operation because they know it and it does not involve them in any extra work. (there is something satisfying in digging over the ground in Autumn and in Spring) There is also the worry about potentially no digging. ( these are comments made by my new allotmenteer neighbour aged 80 when I asked about this)
Others. like me, would like to try it but just do not have the time to lug the materials to the allotment and build the beds. I only started my half plot this year so still have a lot of work to do to get it into shape. Funnily enough work and family do take over ones life when one least expects it.
I also have a half plot size garden which also has vegetables and is split into beds but because the ground is mainly clay I still dig it. I have one 6 feet by 4 feet bed and even with manure and other organic materials is still mainly hard clay.
My aim would be that by the time I retire (that's a few years away yet) I would like to think that at least 50% of the allotment will be beds of about 10 feet by 4 feet.
However, I would say that I am interested in how others have got on and are getting on with raised beds. So any others with comments?
Bill
Just 2 thoughts -
1. Small (even raised) beds/areas are more condusive to getting things done. And less treading of the soil.
2. Old way - allows regimented weeding /hoeing, & more economical machine cultivation.
I like being able to set myself targets for the day on a "bed" basis. It's satisfying to achieve your target and also easier to ignore the undone bits which are targets for another day. I have raised (-ish) beds but I don't have wood round them.
I've switched over to a bed system this year and i've been very pleased. The first thing it does is impose some order on the plot, and it looks good (which encourages you to keep it that way). Planting in blocks also encourages you to replant free space more quickly (rather than waiting for a row to be finished). For me, it's made rotation more tricky to work out, but it just needs more thought (and I don't make any special effort to rotate salads, roots and legumes anyway). The main drawback I was expecting was more slug damage, but this hasn't happened
The problem i've had so far is since the beds are about 4 ft wide, I planted the broad beans in a block like sweetcorn; had poor circulation and had rust much sooner than usually (won't do that again). Also a problem i've noticed on other plots with carpet is that as the carpet gets older, moss grows on it and spreads onto the soil (difficult to get rid of it)
With an open ground method, you naturally form paths across the plot, and the soil becomes very compacted, difficult to weed and hoe (and looks poor)
The main issue is it turns you into a right stig, always poking in skips looking for old carpet
I have no raised fixed beds, other than for strawberries. The rest of my plot is flat ground, with paving slabs dividing it up into equal sized beds. For me - It makes sowing and organising where I want to put my crops so much easier. I also find it easier to gage space so I do not plant too much of one thing, leaving me no room to put something else next to it.
I think when it come down to the choice of growing in raised beds or open bed system you have to garden within your cappabilities or dissabilities and choose what suits you.
I prefer the open bed system as suits my way of being able to do things apart from hoeing most other things ie; planting out has to be done on my knees.
Also there is very little lost ground in open bed system no repairing or replacing timbers.
How mant beds would i get in this part of the garden
[attachment=1]
I have a combination of wooden raised beds and open rows. There are advantaged and disadvantages to both, depending on the quantities of things you like to grow.
Large veg like cauliflowers I grow in a 3-2-3 formation in raised beds, harvesting the middle one first. I plant close, harvest early and always have something to plant in the place of harvested veg, so my raised beds are very productive. I was concerned that potatoes would be difficult, but can fit two rows of 5 spuds each per raised bed, it was a breeze to harvest them, and had really good yields too. Open rows are good for things like squash and marrows, but I use supports for them when it is their turn in the raised beds to make best use of the space.
Maintenance wise, I think raised beds are easier to keep looking neat if that bothers you, easier to net or fleece, but admittedly more work to set up in the first place. I haven't quite decided how to arrange my new 2/3 rds size plot yet...probably a combination of both again!
Deb, when you say you plant close with large veg like caulies, just how close do you plant. we only have small beds in the garden & need to maximize space.
Janet.
In a four foot wide bed, I plant them in a staggered row 3-2-3-2... so the caulis in the 'three' row are planted 6" from the side boards, and one in the middle (at the two foot mark) ie' 18" apart, then the caulis in the second 'two' row are both planted 12" from the side boards.....like this..
X X X
X X
X X X
More difficult to describe than do!
I use "beds" that are not bordered by wood for all crops except potatoes. Potatoes are laid out in the traditional way and I therefore, fully dig a quarter of my allotment per year. For the rest, I prepare beds that are about 1.5m wide and half the width of my plot long (about 5.5m) so I can plant closer together.
Quote from: grannyjanny on July 05, 2008, 20:52:00
Deb, when you say you plant close with large veg like caulies, just how close do you plant. we only have small beds in the garden & need to maximize space.
Janet.
Never checked the catalogues for a while but you used to be able to get high density vegetables, if your space is limited might be worth a look.
My soil drains very quickly and is prone to drying out, for me raised beds would be very hard to keep moist. I grow water loving crops, such as squash in craters to maximise water in the root area.
However my allotment has been out of cultivation for a decade, once I have upped the organic content of the soil I might use raised beds, or a mix. I never liked raised beds for spuds.
We built raised beds in the spring its the best move we ever made. They are just more manageable and it so much tidier. Its much better for weeding you can keep on top of a small space and eventually if you keep at it you'll have weed free beds. We also put copper wire around the scaffold boards (bit like an electric fence) to keep the snails off, its worked a treat.
Yes - targets!
Apart from 8 Raised Beds, one patch is divided by a + of slabs into four 20'x15' lots. Less daunting than the whole, & helpful for rotation.
From what i've read, raised beds produce a greater yield than open beds as you can plant a lot closer together and you don't stand on the soil. This is my first year with an allotment so i will neeed to compare my beds with others on the site to feel sure about this in practice.
Quote from: tim on July 05, 2008, 14:15:53
Just 2 thoughts -
1. Small (even raised) beds/areas are more condusive to getting things done. And less treading of the soil.
2. Old way - allows regimented weeding /hoeing, & more economical machine cultivation.
I have always worked on the old system of rows. We are in a heavy clay area and I am rapidly coming round to the idea of beds. When I worked for the Forestry Commission, we grew and sent out 3.5 million trees per year from 24 acres of nursery (no longer in existence), these were grown in beds 3ft wide with 1ft path between. When they wanted to mechanise the job, they found that using an American tobacco planting machine worked very well with those measurements.The beds were not "raised beds" with board surround, but slightly raised beds with the path in between at a lower level. Although this was on sandy land I can see that it would work very well on clay. It avoids treading down the beds, a big factor with the wet periods we are now getting. It would also be possible to use rotovators on them.
There's no need to build raised beds unless you have a specific reason, like waterlogged ground. The methods used - planting closer together, not walking on the beds - can all be used on the level.
Yes my French neighbours are very puzzled by what they call my "Planting everything in little squares" method! They all do big long lines!
As I have little time, I feel that my method suits my plot well - I have five main areas, divided by paths. I can rotate easily this way. You can plant a small patch very quickly, especially as I cover then dig - last week, a 2x1 patch of beans took me half an hour to uncover, dig over, pull out the few remaining weeds, sow and water.
As Tim pointed out, it is much less daunting to do 2 short rows than a long one and when you are a beginner it seems to build up more quickly that way. My soil is very soft from almost never being walked on - I can water and tend everything from the paths.
I don't have raised beds as such, just small patches.
But each to his own!!
No one yet has said that the weeds just come out so easily either. I was weeding this morning before work and I was pulling dandelions out and getting root and all! I have kept one bed for the "traditional" way.
Funnily enough, when the allotment committee were doing the inspections the other day, being on the committee I go with them!, the all ooed and ahhed over one that is gardened the "traditional way" and didn't seem interested in ones that were really doing well and producing loads! So it seems that visually they are not as acceptable as the "old" system.
I will be sticking to my raised beds though. I have both wood bordered ones and humped earth ones and they all seem to be doing very well indeed.
Minimal slug damage also this year - maybe due to the coffee input!
Old Bird
;D
Some good replies there. I'd like to comment on a few points raised.
I think you could use all sorts of materials for the psaths between the beds, it doesn not have to be old carpet (might be OK for an allotment but not a garden plot). I have used landscape fabric and gravel for mine, which might be a bit too extravagant for some but it looks good and is easy to maintain. You could use bark chips or shredded prunings instead. If you have access to old paving slabs these could be dry laid on firmed earth either as stepping stones or as whole paths if you can aquire enough. Last resort would be grass but this might spread into the beds and need regular re-edging and weeding.
The beds done have to be raised or need edging. a simple network of defined beds and paths would achieve the same effect if raised beds are not needed. When it comes to soil improvement, instead of spreading compost ofr manure over the whole plot, just mulch the beds with it.
I have to admit some crops are trickier to grow in beds rather than open ground plots. Potatoes for example are harder to earth up in raised beds particularly. In fact some years i grow my spuds through landscape fabric topped with a mulch to remove the need for earthing up. Crops needing a lot of space such as some brassicas and curcubits (squashes and courgettes etc). Sprouts in particular I have discovered cannot be grown closer together in raised beds so i can fit that many in. In open rows I might fit more ito the plot.
Whilst I am generally happy with my beds i have a couple of niggles with them, originating form when they were built. The first is the layout of them, I built them 10 feet by 3 feet with 4 beds across the plot (running length wise east to west) with a 5th bed at right angles (lengthwise north to south). This last bed is more shaded and is close to a hedge which limits the crops I can grow. I now feel the layout and perhaps the shape of the beds is wrong ant that either all the beds should run lengthwise north south (avoiding the problem of crops in one bed shading the next) or been square or nearly square (4'x4' or 4'x5'), giving me 6 smaller beds and greater flexibilty perhaps.
The other problem is the soil. Unlike many people when they make raised beds I filled mine entirely with existing topsoil rather than a mixture of soil and organic matter. Consequently the organic matter in the beds needs almost constant replenishment. This is never enough and with all the rains in the last 12 - 18 months I now feel the soil has become rather tired, hungry and in need of serious improvement or even partial replacement. I have come to this conclusion based on poor growth on the veg plot so far this year.
I found it convenient to dig a bed at a time when faced with this prospect:-
(http://www.allaboutliverpool.com/alldigging.jpg)
Several months later after digging/building one at a time it looked like this
(http://www.allaboutliverpool.com/allfromshedroofoct.jpg)
I can now modify things and add moveable modules such as these squash houses:-
(http://www.allaboutliverpool.com/allbutternut3houses.JPG)
It suits my sense of order. I have even made a record of the weight of produce to decide on best varieties, planting times and distances etc.
http://www.allaboutliverpool.com/allaboutallotments1_homepage.html
Those are really something!!
This is my version.
Quote from: tim on July 07, 2008, 17:01:06
Those are really something!!
This is my version.
Looks good tim. Still a bit big though. You have to walk on them to get to the plants in the middle I am guessing?
Just a thought. What is the ideal orientation for beds? North to south or east to west? Mine are east to west (ish). I have a feeling this is not the best way to have them...... ???
East to West give maximum light to your veg.
If you think Tim,s Potato bed is big'
[attachment=1]
Quote from: davyw1 on July 07, 2008, 22:34:55
East to West give maximum light to your veg.
If you think Tim,s Potato bed is big'
[attachment=1]
Just to clarify. Do you mean the longest axis should run from east to west with the longest sides facing south and north? I thought that this orientation would result in tall crops casting shade over the bed to the north of it? I have seen some beds recently in another garden where the long axis ran north to south and thought that this might be better since none of the beds would be shaded by another by the midday sun.
Quote from: Garden Apprentice on July 09, 2008, 13:06:23
Quote from: davyw1 on July 07, 2008, 22:34:55
East to West give maximum light to your veg.
If you think Tim,s Potato bed is big'
[attachment=1]
Just to clarify. Do you mean the longest axis should run from east to west with the longest sides facing south and north? I thought that this orientation would result in tall crops casting shade over the bed to the north of it? I have seen some beds recently in another garden where the long axis ran north to south and thought that this might be better since none of the beds would be shaded by another by the midday sun.
If you new all this why did you ask?
Quote from: davyw1 on July 09, 2008, 13:39:02
Quote from: Garden Apprentice on July 09, 2008, 13:06:23
Quote from: davyw1 on July 07, 2008, 22:34:55
East to West give maximum light to your veg.
If you think Tim,s Potato bed is big'
[attachment=1]
Just to clarify. Do you mean the longest axis should run from east to west with the longest sides facing south and north? I thought that this orientation would result in tall crops casting shade over the bed to the north of it? I have seen some beds recently in another garden where the long axis ran north to south and thought that this might be better since none of the beds would be shaded by another by the midday sun.
If you new all this why did you ask?
Sorry. I thought I had made a query not a statement. Just wanted clarification thats all.
That,s that sorted then.
Does it really make any difference, actually i think it does because when deciding the start raised bed gardening you have to take into consideration what will shade your beds, trees, sheds and buildings, which way the garden slopes if not on the level, easy access to water and from your main path.
If i was to convert to raised bed gardening in my case i would favor North to South because of the above factors.
So why did i say East to West, of the advantages of raised bed gardening is the fact that the soil warms up quicker so if the bed is broad side on to the sun it will warm the soil quicker. Whether the plants will get more light is debatable as this is down to planning and rotation of crops.
Quote from: davyw1 on July 09, 2008, 14:21:43
That,s that sorted then.
Does it really make any difference, actually i think it does because when deciding the start raised bed gardening you have to take into consideration what will shade your beds, trees, sheds and buildings, which way the garden slopes if not on the level, easy access to water and from your main path.
If i was to convert to raised bed gardening in my case i would favor North to South because of the above factors.
So why did i say East to West, of the advantages of raised bed gardening is the fact that the soil warms up quicker so if the bed is broad side on to the sun it will warm the soil quicker. Whether the plants will get more light is debatable as this is down to planning and rotation of crops.
I see. Thanks.
I wish I had your sense of order AAL.You have a great plot. :)
Hi just wanted to say that I have grown potatoes in slightly raised beds this year (without wooden surrounds) & have used grass guttings to 'earth up'. Been really successful sofar ;D
I agree with Davy.
My plot slopes to the south lengthwise and it was convenient to make three beds across.
I think that wind, cold, rain, slugs, disease and pigeons are a greater problem than orientation.
PS I can now add thieves, as my onions were recently raided.
http://www.allaboutliverpool.com/allaboutallotments1_homepage.html
My plot is north/south and the beds East/West. I inherited it in that format and have found it works.
When I took on a second plot I made the beds north/south to compare, but to be honest there was no appreciable difference between the two. When Peter died I gave up the second plot because it was just too much both in terms of effort and in terms of produce for me on my own.
AAL are you retired? I only ask because I find the amount of stuff you are able to do quite mind-boggling!!! (and that's from a recognised workaholic!!)
I am a full-time GP and I live less than a mile from my practice, a few hundred yards from my allotment and more or less in heaven.
I can visit my plot before morning surgery, during the afternoon and at weekends.
The Mersey is 500 yards away, Liverpool airport 4 miles away and the city centre 4 miles away in the other direction, 20 minutes cycle ride along the promenade,
My local train station is half a mile away and I have an old gits free pass.
Apart from Bill Gates, who can have a better life especially as my three children have never given me a minutes anxiety.
My only worry is what shall I do in 26 months when I am 65?
Sounds like "le paradis terrestre"! I guess when you retire you'll have more time for your wife and France? And maybe space for a new additional hobby? You lucky man!!
Personally, as a full-time teacher (work on the other side of Edinburgh in an area of social deprivation), i find it hard to meet all my obligations - never mind the allotment - but then I hve a 97 year old blind and deaf man in tow too.
Anyway your work is impressive!
QUOTE ALLABOUTLIVERPOOL [ I am a full-time GP ] CAN I HAVE A SICK NOTE.