It's a very basic question I admit but I've been going through my new seed catalogues (I'm buying on the assumption I'll get an allotment next year... fingers crossed) and trying to pick good varieties etc but I have no idea what "F1 Hybrid" means... I'm kind of assuming they're varieties bread to resist common problems but just thought I'd ask in case I'm way out...
Are there any pros or cons associated with them?
thanks :)
Hi Cuke, I'm also not 100% on this one but roughly F1 means it is a variety of plant that has been bred from 2 different varieties to produce a new variety. This may be for several reasons, sometimes to produce better crops, sometimes to make it crop all at the same time or even to produce less leaves on some plants.
Because it is from 2 different varieties it means the seed it produces would not be good to save and sow for next year as it is not likely it would reproduce the same plant, the only people who know the seeds parents are the seed company that bred that particular one so you have to keep buying from them if you want to reproduce the same plant.
A lot of people on plots will save seeds from their current crops to sow for next year (a lot do it with runner beans) but this would not be pos with f1.
People are very divided about the pros and cons of F1's and there is a big movement towards going with the old (sometimes called heritage) varieties.
I don't think I've explained it totally right but someone else will come along and correct me ;D!!
I think you explained it very well GW!
As you said, the biggest problem with F1 varieties is that they are expensive to produce and therefore to buy (unless you wait until the Wyvales summer sale like me!), you have to buy new seed each season as saved seed will not come 'true' to the original ;although always worth a go in my view if you have the space to try a few different types, I like to experiment!
This means you can't save identical seeds from plants that have done well in your particular soil and conditions, which it what gardeners have traditionally done in the past, generating plants that gradually adapt to the local area.
I suggest you get a copy of the 'Real Seeds' catalogue (or see their website http://www.realseeds.co.uk/) if you have not already done so, where they go into it all in a bit more detail if you are interested.
I find cauliflowers and all female cucumbers the only two plants I always grow from F1 seed, anything else I have tried has not proven so successful, but I am always open to suggestions!
Most plant varieties are more-or-less pure bred.
That is, the mothers genetic contribution is exactly the same as the fathers.
The seeds will always have the same genes as the parents:
the plants will "come true" from seeds.
If you cross a Cox with a James Grieve
the seeds (pips) will be hybrids: a mixture of the two parents.
If you find that this hybrid produces wonderful apples,
you could keep producing the wonderful hybrid by crossing Cox and James Grieve in the same way.
This would be the 1st Filial generation from the cross: F1
If you planted the pips of the wonderful hybrid
they will have been produced by crossing Wonderful Hybrid with Something Else;
the result is unpredictable.
For commercial sale many, many crosses are tried. Most are rubbish, but all are F1.
The really good crosses are sold.
They are valuable because they are always "better" than either of the parents.
Which is exactly what Glosterwomble said.
To me it means more money per packet!! :(
Thanks all, interesting stuff... Not sure what to go for now... :)
To play devils advocate for a minute, (and understanding the argument for keeping 'real' varieties alive) is it really worth the effort of using non hybrids and collecting the seed at the end of the season just to save on seed costs the next year?
As I get my seed at a discounted price I always buy F1 seed where ever possible.
Meaning I basically get seed that produce good stock for more or less the same price as standard seed.
Regarding saving seed I only save beans all the other things I grow are too fiddly to save seed from plus as has been said they would quite possibly not come true to the parent in any case.
So my advice would be; if you can afford F1's buy them, particularly with the brassicas.
i personally refuse ti use 'F1' seed because i don't agree with it- why mess with nature?
i don't need to have 'perfect' produce in terms of colour, size, shape etc... yes there can be a smaller harvest, a shorter harvest time, etc etc etc... but this is all part of the gardening experience!
if i wanted guaranteed, perfect produce, i would go to tesco.
maybe i am alone in this opinion... ::)
Quoteis it really worth the effort of using non hybrids and collecting the seed at the end of the season just to save on seed costs the next year?
We could ask is it worth growing our own when produce is so cheap in the shops? The vast majority of the population cannot be bothered growing their own, the majority of growers cannot be bothered saving seeds. But seeds can be saved. It's a free choice.
Saving seed from certain crops require work and tie up land for longer periods but many are no trouble at all. Simply leave a few pods hanging on the runner beans until they've dried, leaving one cob on a sweetcorn plant etc Until you save your own seed it is not so obvious just how much the large seed companies rip off the public. Tee Gee is lucky enough to get F1's at more or less the proper price but the general public has to pay 2-3 times the price just because they can be exploited.
I very much doubt that anyone nowadays saves all their own seed as this would indeed be difficult. However, we have the advantage of extended communities that make swaps and trades easy and more should be made of this facility.
Quote from: Eristic on October 10, 2007, 14:45:29
I very much doubt that anyone nowadays saves all their own seed as this would indeed be difficult. However, we have the advantage of extended communities that make swaps and trades easy and more should be made of this facility.
Oooh yes indeedy, I just
lurve a swop............ 8)
Is it worth the effort to collect your own seed? I think so, particularly heritage tomatoes (OH quite used to seeing bottles of fermenting pips on the windowsill now), beans and some peas, sweetcorn. It also gives you more seeds to swap!! ;D
Quote from: Cuke on October 10, 2007, 13:57:30
... is it really worth the effort of using non hybrids and collecting the seed at the end of the season just to save on seed costs the next year?
Good point Cuke if it was only about saving money, but by saving seed from your plot and doing that each year you are actually developing a plant that has adapted to your growing conditions and environment which will be very different to someone in Glasgow or cornwall, so you end up with a unique plant eventually that should perform better for you as it has had to adapt.
Of course it's not really about saving money, after all what's £150 - £200 a year these days. :P
There are other advantages to collecting your own seed particularly if you go into showing or wander from the accepted normal variety list. Firstly you should be aware that most plants produce their seed in a large range of sizes and for some reason the largest fattest ones never seem to make it into a commercial seed packet. These top-size seeds will of course produce the best plants with correspondingly better results. some varieties have to be hunted down and it is usually less hastle to save your own seed once you have the strain growing. Also bear in mind that seed companies are increasingly adopting the practice of stuffing anything in the packet, dead or alive while playing a numbers game. One person in 1000 complains so just give em their money back and shut them up.
If I tried germinating a packet and found that nothing was viable, then after the stories we've been hearing I'd be inclined to report them to Trading Standards. That might be the way to sort them.
Trouble is Robert they may not be packeted in the UK :'(
There are minimum standards for veg seed sold in the UK, including germination rates. Rates vary for different crop, but as a general guide, 75% of a packet should germinate. However for ornamentals any old rubbush can be legally sold.
For further info see The Vegetable Seed (England) Regulations (but only if you cant sleep !)
I thought F1 hybrid was the front end of a McLaren welded to the back end of a Ferrari.
Is Lewis Hamilton an F1 hybrid ?
QuoteThere are minimum standards for veg seed sold in the UK, including germination rates. Rates vary for different crop, but as a general guide, 75% of a packet should germinate.
Agreed, there are standards as you rightly say, but the seed companies do not give a toss. You complain, they give a refund. Simple. But what about the year you waste?
And to rub in the point of being blatantly ripped off, you should see the amount of seed in the packets of tomatoes and peppers and such like that were in the Spanish pass the parcel run by Biscombe. After a dozen grubby hands had liberated their share before I got to them there was still enough seed left to make 20 English seed packs. Why should a pack of tomato only have 50 seeds and cost £1.70 or thereabouts? Who in their right mind would pay £25 at the grocers for a kilo of toms?
Thanks all :)
So.... Having established that saving seeds is a good idea I'm going to cut back on the F1 Hybrid seeds I buy for next year.
What I'm wondering now though is what veg are easy to collect the seeds from and what aren't... And how do you do it? Is it more technical than, for example, saving some of the bean seed from runner beans or removing and drying the pips from tomatoes etc?
Top of the list for easy would be peas, runner bean, broad bean, sweetcorn as they just require leaving the requisite number of pods, cobs to remain on the plot until they fully mature, then harvest, clean, dry, label and store.
Second level are the seeds that require extracting or processing such as tomato, pepper, aubergine, squash, pumpkin etc.
More difficult are the various roots and brassicas as these will require growing on into year two and safeguards need to be in place to prevent cross pollination with other varieties.
Have a look at RealSeeds website here http://www.realseeds.co.uk/ (http://www.realseeds.co.uk/) for lots of information and techniques about saving seed from each different variety.
Why not buy a beefsteak tomato and a few red chillis and have a practice?
One has to be careful with peppers, chillies, squash and pumpkin though - they cross-pollinate and don't come true unless great care has been taken or only one variety has been grown in the vicinity.
Tricia
Quote from: RosieMcPosie on October 10, 2007, 14:29:10why mess with nature?
Rather like breeding dogs?
or heavy horses which were better for pulling ploughs?
or colourful chrysanths?
Did you know that mules are F1 hybrids?
Mules are economically very important in some countries.
Every seed you sow has been selected and bred over hundreds, sometimes thousands, of years.
If they didn't "mess with nature" we'd still be hunter-gatherers,
dying of TB and measles.
right, ok John, point taken. :)
i'll retract that statement, my point was more about not growing f1 seeds because i don't feel the need to grow crops in the way commercial growers do. if i lose a few plants to disease, or it's the wrong colour... all the more to put down to experience! i'm a new gardener and tbh, really quite enjoy learning from my mistakes and finding more natural ways to produce a high quality crop. ;D
Quote from: RosieMcPosie on October 15, 2007, 12:57:19i don't feel the need to grow crops in the way commercial growers do.
I'm with you there ;)
Basically F1 means 'first cross'. To produce more F1 seeds of the same variety you need to cross the same two varieties - male x female.
If you save seed from an F1 variety, you will end up with an F2 variety. You may end up with some very good plants, but you may also end up with some crap.
There are also 'heritage' seeds. These are varieties which will come true to variety from saved seeds. I think they have been one of the the biggest problems this year, insofar as they have been the most prone to blight.
I think 2007 has been a dreadful growing year. I feel so sorry for the tomato growers who have started the year with so much optimism, only to have been devastated by blight.
We have had a very good tomato year, but I do feel so very sorry for the blight stricken.
valmarg