Allotments 4 All

Hi,

I hope you can help.  I have a 'situation' here which is getting unpleasant.

My allotment neighbour has 10+ allotments all adjoining which she calls her 'field' for keeping her horses on and claims that she *bought* the field off of the official tenant.  Her 'field' is slap bang in the middle of a large area of veg/chicken type allotments.  The boundary fencing to the 'field' is rickety in places but better in others - it seems to be fixed only when its actually fallen down.  The horses are nice but are well known for kicking the fences and have got out several times before.  In accordance with the rules of the allotments she has a double layer of fencing/tin between her land and mine but only one layer between her 'field' and the lane serving all the allotments - and the horses are escaping in to the lane.

Since April the horses have got out twice and have trampled all over my veg allotment - lucky for me the damage wasn't as bad as it could have been - probably only a fifth of my plants were damaged.  The have gotten out and damaged other people's allotments but, with the damage to mine, she has had to admit that her horses dit it because there were witnesses and photographs taken.  The next day she offered to pay for the damage, which I refused,  and apologised.  I said I didn't want any money but that, as this was the second time, could she please reinforce the boundary by putting a second, more secure, fence inside the first one or replace the whole thing with something a bit more substantial - which she refused to do - because the horses are (she says) being let out by a member of the allotment committee so putting additional fencing would be a waste of time.

What do I do now?   I know that it doesn't matter whose letting them out - she is responsible for her animals but she's saying that I'm playing in to her enemy's hands if I kick up a fuss.   And it does seem a bit odd that there was someone on hand with a camera to take pictures of the horses being out and the damage - at 8am on a Friday morning.   

Something I forgot.  She is a very violent, mouthy type woman who threatened me when she found out that the damage had been reported to the committee - which I actually didn't do, the person who found the horses loose did that - I don't think she really meant the threat, but the words were said. 

All I want to do is grow my veg in peace but with the way things are going I have to do something and I don't know what.  Its making me nervous to go up there but I have to because I've got chooks on my other allotment.

Help!!!!

Well this is a bad situation and I feel really bad for you. The bit that confuses me is the bit about 'she bought the land off the tenant'. How can one buy something off a tenant, surely a tenant is only renting themselves, and from who!! I think this is where I would start ans the situation is clearly unacceptable.

I would find out who the owner is and find out the legality of her claim.

It would seem you are not on your own as other folks are not happy too.

There may be something in the lease regarding use of land too.

It would also seem to me it his her problem to keep the animals contained and any damage they do while it is being settled she should be responsible for,  I would accept it and give her a receipt keeping a copy for what is was for and why. It might come in handy later as she is clearly accepting resposibility if she provides compensation.

What if, they escaped an d trampled a person or caused an accident,

This surely has to be stopped.

That is as far as my thinking goes.

XX Jeannine

I don't really understand how she could buy the allotments either - but she says she paid £500 for them and has laid out more since to replace bits of fence, etc.  I suspect she bought the use of the land and the things on it (stables, etc) from the official tenant which, on my reading of the tenancy agreement, is against the rules.  Hard to prove though.  Nobody seems to know who the official tenant is - all they know is that the horses' owner is noted on the tenancy agreement as 'partner'.

We're all allowed to keep animals as long as we have the Committee's approval - presumably she must have otherwise they'd have removed her by now. 

I've told her I don't want her money - it isn't so much the financial value rather the amount of time, love and effort I've put in - its soul destroying to find healthy plants trampled.   

I agree completely about what would happen if the horses hurt someone.  I often work up there on my own and our allotments are in the furthest corner of a large number of allotments, much too far away to be heard if I shouted for help.

Yes, I agree it needs to be stopped - I just don't know how.  She told me that if the Committee try and get her off she will fight it through the Courts because (she says) its a personal vendetta against her by one of the Committee members.

But I'm the one thats suffering!

i completey agree. do not be bullied. she is on very sticky ground and i cant think that any other allotment site would allow her to keep horses. regardles of that, you have a right to your crops not being damaged by other peoples animals. its difficult with mouthy bullish people but you must stand your ground. if she threatens you then threaten her back with the police.
i would certainly raise it with the committee as i dint think she can have a leg to stand on.
aaarrrggghh, i cant bear people who have no respect for other peoples space/belongings/rights etc. it makes my blood boil. youare just a normal person going about your lawful business growing veg, she does not have the right to disregard your crops. if her horses damage your crops again you must threaten action.  you are in the right and she is in the wrong.
as jeannine says, what if they caused harnm to a person or got onto the road and caused an accident there.  read your lease and get your committee on to it. they have a responsibilityto you. good luck :-\

hiya, ck..are they council run allotments, parish ?
whoever they are rented off needs to know what's going on, if you don't want the aggravation, send an anonymous letter to them ..she needs to be stopped

This is typical of things that have been allowed to go on by various 'apathetic' committees my suggestion is write to these people http://www.nsalg.org.uk/ and state your case. At least you will have a recognized body to point you in the right direction.

With due respect to everybody here that is trying to help we can only give an opinion at least these people might be able to give you 'legal advice'

Why can't she just put up a substantial fence and gate fastened shut with a pad lock?  That way if it is someone letting the animals out they'd not be able to get the gate open, or at least it would prove that someone was doing it if the padlock was bolt cropped.

Are your allotments council-owned or self-governing? We are the latter and allowed to have livestock. On the whole. council ones aren't. But I'm not sure that anyone can "buy" a bit - certainly not the middle bit - of an allotment site. We all rent.

We have a stables on-site and they rent an area that was once allotments as paddocks. But they pay the same as us and they are subject to the same rules. My plot is surrounded on two sides by their paddock; I do my best best to maintain my side and if there are problems the stables do their bit too.

Forget the "mouthy" bit - insecure people often are. Sort out the legalities & go from there.

Raise it formally, in writing, with both the committee and the site owner. After that, if you get nowhere, try the RSPCA (if the horses are escaping, they could get onto the road or anything), local councillors, MP's, the local press, anyone you can think of. There's no possible reason for you to put up with it.

Goodness, thank you for all your replies - very much appreciated - makes me feel not so alone in all this.

Tee Gee, thank you for that link - I'll be using it if things escalate any further.

I'm not sure but I think that the land the allotments is on is owned by the Local Authority but they are governed by the elected Allotment Committee.  Which, of course, is okay normally but, according to this woman, its the Chairman of the Allotment Committee plus a few of his relatives (who are also committee members) who want to get her off. 

So far I haven't given in to her bullying but it is very difficult when someone is shouting at you right in your face.  She just doesn't listen - she hears what she wants to hear.  If what she is saying about the Committee is correct then I do feel a bit sorry for her - even though she is such a nasty piece of work.   

About the substantial fence, etc - when she came to apologise and offered me money for my damaged plants I told her that I accepted her apology but wouldn't accept the money - but that her apology didn't make the situation 'better' - the only way that would happen would be if she were to do her best to keep the horses secure by double skinning the existing fence or putting up a new one.  She said that, because the fence in question is next to the lane, that she doesn't HAVE to double skin it because, according to the rules, she only has to double skin fences between her 'field' and other peoples' allotments.  I said that I agreed she didn't HAVE to do it but that it would be the RIGHT thing to do in view of the damage her horses are doing each time they get out.  That is when it started to get nasty.

I think that if she starts in on me again that I'll do as Robert_Brenchley says and raise the matter in writing - send copies to the horses' owner, the Allotment Committee and the local authority.   If that doesn't work then I'll try the NSALG and/or the Police.   I'm just worried that by taking it further she'll get her own back by damaging my veg or poisoning my chickens or something.

BTW, theres no chance of the horses getting on to a road.  Our access lane has got a locking gate at the end of it so the horses could only get on to the twenty or so allotments leading off of it.

I'm dreading going up there today but I have to because my chooks need feeding.  She seems to be hiding behind hedges, waiting for me so she can start shouting again.    :(

I feel so sorry for you curly kale.  It is just not fair this woman should spoil your allotment for you. She is making you dread going up there, when you should be enjoying it. I hate this sort of bullying.

I concur with all the other advice, and I think you need to sort it out once and for all. Please don't let it drag on for your sake, and the rest of your allotment neighbours who are also suffering. Let us know how things work out. busy_lizzie

This sounds bang out of order ..Even self governing sites have to abide by codes of practice Laid down by the local authority ..We are  a self governing  society with  6 allotment sites under  Doncaster council but we have to abide by their rules..
Poultry, rabbits,pigeons  etc are allowed under their ruling ,,
But horses and goats need special permission from the "COUNCIL" not your commitee ..  
I am presuming  the landords of your allotments are Doncaster council ..
if so here is where you need to contact .This can all be done discreetly..

Mail: customer.services@doncaster.gov.uk | Telephone:  01302 736000 | Minicom:  01302 736252 | Fax:  01302 737510
Address: Allotments, PO Box 257, The Council House, College Road, Doncaster, DN1 1RN. ....





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That is unbelievable!!! Can't add any more advice to that already given except to say do not be intimidated by her. People like her are all mouth and no trousers. Tell her what she has to say is irrelevant and she'd be better off finding herself a solicitor. The b****!!

Thank you for your replies, as I said before, they really do help by making me feel not so alone in all this.

Growmore, thanks for the Doncaster Council information - it looks like I might need it. 

As I thought, she was waiting for me.  She gave me a sealed envelope which contained photocopies of half a dozen letters she has sent to the Committee today about various horse/allotment/meeting matters - and on reading them I found that one of them was about me.  She has decided that I'm a member of the Committee which is why I'm against her (because, apparently, all the gardening allotment holders and Committee members are against the horse people).  She is demanding a meeting to discuss me being suspended and/or removed as a Committee member - should be a very short but interesting meeting, considering I'm not not ever have been a member of any committee anywhere... ever!  I've only had an allotment here since March.... She really is very strange and getting really quite scary.

My husband is all for us just selling the chooks and abandoning the veg he says all this is spoiling his enjoyment of the allotments.  Sad.   :'(  I don't want to do that - my husband works long hours and its been me thats dug most of that allotment with my own fair little hands.

I've written back to her, copied it to the Committee, telling her I'm not a Committee member - not that it would make any difference because all I want is for her to keep her horses securely.  She is obviously very fond of letters so I hope it works. 

Hi CK, have you posted that letter to her yet because I would be tempted to go to the meeting as if you ARE a committee member and let the good times roll.  ;D Imagine her face when she finds out you're not on it? Ha!

Let her go for it and stand by your lottie. I can't believe any lottie committee allow horses on the land. They need their heads read.

Give her enough rope...

and she wonders why so many people want to get rid of her????

I really hope you can get it sorted, it sounds like bullying plain and simple and shouldn't be tollerated. I say go to the meeting and let her make a fool of herself, sounds like everyone there will be on your side anyway and there's strength in numbers...

How about a big fence around your garden?

Citizen's advice bureau?

somebody yelling and being threatening like her normally feel insecure because they know there not 100 % in the right good luck and dont chuck it all in when this is all sorted you will be glad you stood up to her

What you need to do is find out what your constitution says and get hold of a set of rules for your site. If possible ask to read the minutes of past meetings to SE what it says about horses on the site and fence maintenance.
Is her stable made of brick or wood? If it is brick then it is a permanent structure for which she needs planning permission.
Remind her that the Allotment Act states that an allotment is  For persons to grow vegetables for themselves and their families, not to keep horses on.
If she make a comment about you keeping hens it was past last year that you are permitted to keep hens on an allotment, nothing in it about horses.

Is it a statutory site? I don't know what degree of self-management you have, but you need to look at the legal situation. Councils can be very reluctant to act when it's the people running the site who are causing the trouble, as I know from experience; any small community organisation is always vulnerable to that sort as they always have trouble finding people to do jobs, and it's easy to worm your way in. But the purposes of an allotment are laid down by law, and they don't include keeping large livestock. They do include keeping hens, so you're OK on that point. If the worst comes to the worst, a letter to your local MP might well stir them up sufficiently to get some action.

Quoting from doncaster councils website
http://www.doncaster.gov.uk/living_in_doncaster/neighbourhoods/allotments/general_allotment_information.asp

Chickens, ducks, geese and pigeons can be kept by prior arrangement.  A licence must be obtained from the Department of Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in order to keep goats and pigs.  Some allotment sites are barred from having livestock.  Tenants are also allowed to keep rabbits, ferrets and other small animals.  Dogs and horses are not allowed except under special arrangement.

If they are being kept under special arrangement I would imagine there are strict rules they have to comply with if they are able to escape & damage other peoples plots they are bound to be contravening these rules. I would complain in writing  to both the allotment committee & the council & encourage anyone else who has been affected to do the same. Using 10+ plots to keep horses does not fit in with allotment gardening even if she was breeding them for meat it still wouldn't fit the primary purpose of an allotment is to grow fruit & veg keeping livestock for meat/egg/milk production is always treated as a secondary thing which you would only allocate a small pecentage of your plot to. It would be more appropriate if she housed her horses elsewhere & used the land for fruit/veg production or gave up the plots so 10 other people could get a plot each.

I know this sounds a bit tame but it does work. When she zooms in you and starts shouting simply say." I am no longer prepared to talk to you unless you lower your voice"...then walk away. Don't engage with her at all,whatever she says,  if she persists, I would repeat the phrase just once and move well away.

Bullies can only do their nastiness if you rise to it.

If she needs to speak to you she will lower her voice or she will be talking to herself.

If she lowers her voice, then I would speak to her but make it clear you are not on any committee and are not prepared to accept any paperwork from her nor will you accept any shouting or unpleasantness ANYMORE.

Remember you are the victim here, whatever gripe she has got with the committee that is not you!!

She will get the message if you set the rules.

I would then back out and leave the others to get on with it.

If thay are trying to get her out and there is a get out clause they will find it.

In the meantime you might get her off your back.

Just take a big breath and say it and stick to it.

Good Luck,

XX Jeannine

Thank you for the link to the Doncaster allotments information - it makes very interesting reading because our rents are much more than that and there are a large number of people keeping all kinds of animals on our allotment site including dogs, quite a few horses, quite a few pigs, at least one goat, a donkey, loads of cats as well as chickens, geese, ducks and turkeys.

On the escaping horse front: things have calmed down a bit.  I gave her the letter and did pretty much what Jeannine suggested and after one massive load of swearing and shouting to which she didn't get a response, the horses' owner stomped off and came back the next day in a lot calmer mood. 

She's now been given some of the materials necessary to secure the horses properly and her husband has started work on replacing the existing fence. 

However I'm now finding myself in the middle of what is obviously a very bizarre situation.   I've had a few other allotment tenants (mostly elderly) come to tell me that, while she is a bit of a nightmare, what she is saying about the secretary of the committee IS correct - in that he makes up the rules as he feels like it and, although there is a committee, in reality the secretary runs the allotments like a dictator.  It also seems that he (the secretary) uses his allotments for keeping pigs..... which is probably why he's not using the official rules as a way of getting the horse owners removed.   There has, I'm told, been a request for a Special General Meeting to table a motion of no confidence in the him but the request for the SGM was denied - actually, I was told that it was originally ignored then, when they pushed for it, he denied it because he didn't like the wording.

I've asked for a copy of the Constitution (which I haven't received yet) and nobody has ever seen any minutes of meetings.  I've been told by pretty much everyone I've spoken to that rents were doubled this year to cover the cost of repaying a loan that the secretary has personally taken out to pay for an on-going Court case to get rid of yet another tenant. 

I have ALSO been told that there have been people asking after having allotments to grow veg and being told there are none available which are suitable.

I think the problem here is that most of the allotment holders are either a) very elderly and don't feel able to challenge the secretary OR b) are keeping animals on their allotment so aren't in a position to challenge the secretary.  There aren't that many of us under retirement age who are growing veg.

I didn't want to know all this - all I want to do is grow my veg and raise my chooks in peace but this trouble seems to have come and found me - I just think that the old boys were relieved to be able to tell someone who they felt might be able to do something about it (possibly because I stood up to the horse owner who they are all scared of).  Trouble is that I really, really don't know what to do and to be honest if, what they are all saying about the secretary person is correct,  I'm a bit worried about what could happen if I did do something. 

Sorry about the length of this, typing it all up helps clear my mind - I'm still not sure what to do though and all suggestions will be gratefully received.  One thing I don't want to do is to get the allotments closed down.

Ok, reading your last bit, the thing that sticks out is 'I don't want to know all this' so following on from the Horsy lady, say that when the others grab you..very politely simply say, " I really don't want to know about all this",  again it will work if you stick to it. They will try to be negative, you can combat that by not agreeing, simply say words like...Oh Really,  what a shame, I can see that could be stressful, then  excuse yourself..they are looking to get you in their camp,so your allotment will turn into a them against him thing. It sounds very patronising and of course it is but they won't bother you so much if they don't get the verbal feedback they are looking for.Stay on the fence as long as you can, turn up at the meetings of course,but try to stay objective. Not easy but less stressful in the end.

Get a copy of your constitution, ask for it formally in writing, give a stamped envelope and if need be record delivery your letter, But I would stick to the rule on not discussing it 'over the garden fence'.

I am glad Horsey backed down a bit,  I think now you have got her in a better position you will be able to keep her there.

With the others, try to stay as positive as you can and don't be sidetracked by gossip and innuendo, that gets nobody anywhere.

Good Luck again

XX Jeannine

it really sounds like a right old shambles to me.  well done to you for standing up to horsy lady and taking her lip, but i can quite understand why you dont want to get involved withthe comitee. it sounds like its run by a load of little hitlers. but its not right for themto run things this way and if you did feel indignant enough about it to take action then i would lodge a formal complaint with the council; about the committee and about the use of the land. councils are obliged to provide land for allotments. incidently are there any other allotment sites in your area? if there are then perhap you could explain the situation you are  on your site and they might give you priority on any waiting list they have.  sorry its such a drag for you all this and i think i would be tempted to move on.

Curly, I may get a lot of flack here from all that has posted, i think you and your fellow allotmentee rs should really consider doing some thing about your situation before it gets worse,and it will.
Our site is private having purchased it from the council.
We had an autocratic bully of a chairman/ secretary whose partner was treasurer, there was no committee as he would not allow one. We had a constitution which was placed in the shop for all to read, and a set of rules which you received on paying your rent. The constitution and rules having been written by him.
There were lots of people complaining about the chairmans autocratic bullying attitude, the prices of stuff in the shop, the way he did things and the way the allotments were run. My attitude to the complainants was, if your not happy about then do some thing about it, its not my problem as he does not give me any grief.
Then one day, after an incident in which the police were involved one allotment holder said to the chairman, You do not own these allotments, he replied, Do i not. I then decided that it was time to step in and have words with him to find out what he meant by owning the allotments, he tried to prosaically put me out of the shop,   Bad Move
After he resigned he took the association to a tribunal for back wages for working in the shop. After the police interviewed him for theft he backed down from the tribunal if i we dropped the theft charge, so we did through a solicitor to make sure he could not come back at us. After that was settled i did him for a second charge of theft.
I am now the chairman , while i do not interfere with what the committee decide in the running of the allotments they know that i will not tolerate them working outside of the rules as a means to an end.
I would like to tell you every trick this man tried to retain being chairman and why  but i think i would bore you all

I've had another weird morning.  While I was lifting my spuds the secretary man came and asked me to be a committee member.  I think he asked me because I stood up to the horsey lady.  I said no thanks.  He also let slip that:

- Two committee members resigned last Saturday

- There now aren't enough committee members to form a quorum - which means they technically can't call a meeting but one has been arranged anyway with the sole item on the agenda being the removal of the horsey lady and her relatives who also have horses on allotments.

- At least two of the remaining three committee members are, I understand, relatives of his.

I asked for a copy of the Constitution and he just looked furtive and changed the subject.  I also mentioned that I'd looked at the Doncaster website and was surprised that our rents are so much higher than stated there, he said that the rents had been agreed at a meeting about a month before I became an allotment tenant.  He then got a bit strange with me and left.

There aren't any other nearby allotments - at least not close enough for me to get there by push bike - if I give up now I'll lose all the veg and fruit I've put in and a local by-law prevents me from keeping chooks in my garden so I'd have to get rid of them. 

I think that for the meanwhile I'm going to keep my head down and just get on with my gardening.   I've got to attend the meeting because of the horses being on my allotment twice but if anything else happens then maybe I'll have a re-think and do something about it.  Not sure what though! 

I understand your reluctance to get involved CK. I would join the committee though as if no-one ever does anything then this will just carry on. I must say I have never heard of such a strange set of circumstances anywhere let alone on an allotment plot. It would be funny if it wasn't real!
The man who is running your site sounds very much like the man Davy mentioned and really he needs sorting out. Having a committee made up of 4 people from the same family is just ridiculous. Have you tried NSALG and organisations like that for advice? even if you and another sane person joined you would still be in the minority so the committee needs balancing out.
I really feel for you with this - I love a good campaign and would happily take him on but I know not everyone feels this way and it must be horrible for you to dread going down there.

As Emmy says join the committee what have you got to lose, are you sure that you are on an allotment Curly because it sounds more like a zoo.  ???   ;D ;D ;D

You know I think I would join the committee too, in fact I would encourage a few more to do the same thing. It can't get worse if you do and at least you will know excatly what is going on and get a chance to change things. I would say go for it!!

Maybe.... I'm a bit reluctant because I'm not the worlds greatest gardener and I don't really have a huge amount of time.  I might have lost my chance though.  I'll do a bit more digging tomorrow - nothing quite like digging to help you think, is there?  I'll also talk to my husband about it as well - although he thinks its all rather silly.

The bottom line is that you may have to take over. Well, someone has to. Don't undertake it lightly: I would spend a lot of time asking around to see if you can build a team. If you can, go for it.

On a technical note, how many signatures are needed on the cheques the committee write? It's usually two (from a designated number of officers); if they all live at the same address, the bank may have an opinion on that.

And if the committee is non-quorate they must summon a general meeting, unless they are allowed to co-opt temporary members until the AGM.

Goodness, I haven't got a clue about signatures on cheques, etc.  I've only got my first allotment at this site after the previous tenant gave it up when the rent became due.

I bumped in to the secretary? chairman? dictator? (whatever he is) this morning and gave him a copy of the letter I gave to the horsey lady. 

As I happened to be walking along with another allotment holder (who would act as my witness) I also told him I would be prepared to join the committee but only if I get to see ALL documentation - Minutes, Constitution, relevant correspondence, etc, - and also that the Committee then begins to run the Allotments in a proper way - in accordance with the law and none of this personal vendetta stuff.  He virtually ran in the opposite direction.

I probably won't hear from him again. 

If you are really lucky he will just keep on running!!!! Hopefully the fact that you are showing a real interest in the committee/documentation etc , will really worry him especially if you can get a few more people interested and provide a united front.

Go Curly Kale!

There are some deeper issues here!

Mainly that any "Organisation" that has a committe - especially one that handles funds, has to be able to meet certain criteria.  I am Treasure of a PTA - and have to be transparent in all my transactions.  My accounts are open to yearly audits and as we are also a registered charity the Charities Commission also request a copy yearly!  My bank accounts are also scrutinised and open to anybody who wishes to see them.  We have three signatories and any two have to sign any cheques.

We hold regular committe meetings and have to have at least three committee members to constitute a quorum.  No decisions can be made with less people present and we usually make no major ones without even more than that being present!

I would demand as a tenant to see the constitution and a copy of last years accounts!!!!!

Get advice and if all else fails - get involved - people like this cannot be allowed to run little empires like that!

Good luck!  be strong!

Louise
XX

It seems to me that to get to this mess the situation has been going on for years on a slow downward spiral.   Much as many of the members dislike what has been going on, it IS what they are used to and I'm not sure how easily I will be accepted by the many older members.  I am:  a) a woman, b) a Londoner living in Yorkshire and c) new to these allotments - so I think that its going to be a question of taking baby steps to make the changes which are obviously really necessary. 

Well, much as he looked worried at the idea of me wanting to see all the documentation (which I thought might put him off me being a Committee Member), for some reason he has started waiting for me in the mornings to discuss allotment business.   Apparently there is a court case going on which I knew nothing about!  My husband's theory is that he knows its all gotten out of hand and sees me as being the one way of getting back on track without losing too much 'face'.    We shall see.   

I did mention that I would still like to see all the paperwork.....

People like that often are in over thier heads. If they were more capable, they'd find something better to do with themselves! You have to be pretty pathetic if the climax of your life is going to be dominating an allotment association.

Why not try the Citizen's Advice Bureau to find a Solicitor who specialises in this sort of thing?

If there are a dozen angry plotholders you could share the cost.

Failing that, I would put a fence round my plot!

Oh - we've put a fence around it now - but (even as the horsey lady pointed out) we shouldn't have had to.  My husband only gets one day off each week and he had to spend last week's day off doing the fence and gate instead of building another chook house.  One of the old boys told me about how it all used to be open and there was a path that used to run right through the middle of all the allotments but that all changed immediately after the horses moved in had had their first break out. 

ah this reminds me so much of our allotment situation! As I have said before it is an association that rents the site from the council and runs the plots from a committee of elected members. It is a situation where everyone grumbles but no one wants to take the reins. So it is run by a few bullies, who feel they are important and want everyone to toe the line. For heaven's sake, the supervisor on our plot was known for siphoning off money from "unofficial" fundraising i.e. selling beers and he even admitted that he had "lost" that money. However he was re-elected because no one else could be bothered! Scandalous (i had only just arrived so I didn't want to commit myself at that point). When I was bullied over my "unorthodox" methods, I politely told him to p... off and was not bothered again because clearly when stood up to, he doesn't know what to do. It is ridiculous that, as you say, everyone just wants to grow their spuds and get some peace, and some people just think this is an opportunity to be a little hitler and make themselves look important. I now garden as I like, within reason (I swapped paper and cardboard for tarps to look a bit tidier) and since I did cover 100m2 in 6 months they couldn't complain about my plot. In the end, unless they really want to make a fuss, people like that back off once challenged because they are usually weak when it all boils down. As for the original question, keeping horses on allotments seems to me the supidest idea I have ever heard of... Horses are such a big commitment and need so much space.

Hi Curly

I've just come across this thread - and, my goodness, it seems an extraordinarily spiky situation!
For what it's worth, my take would be :

1. Whoever owns the land has made it available for people to grow vegetable and/or keep livestock - but you can bet there will be either legal covenants or a memorandum of understanding with some other party about what is and isn't permissable and how disputes may be resolved.

2. The "other party" must have some kind of corporate identity - even if that's simply what lawyers would call an "unincorporated association" - key  thing here is who you pay your rent to. If there's a bank account, there will be some kind of documentation. If in doubt, follow the money. If you're faced with obfuscation, ask your bank who's been cashing your cheques!

3. Do "keep at it"! As others have said, standing up to bullies and wannabe fuhrers is really important - the governance of an alloment site is not something too trivial to bother with - it really is about active citizenship!  We could do with a whole lot more openness and transparency - my own site chair  appears to have ambitions which exceed his mandate (most of us would prefer to quietly get on with growing vegetables  and not do outreach work with our adjoning primary school) but he did stand for election whilst I didn't - so I'll not grumble too much.

Finally, just wanted to say I admire how you're handling things.

A.

Just my 2p worth:

Well done on handling things so far - sounds like a nightmare! I'm not surprised you didn't want to get dragged into it but on the other hand I do agree that it will only get harder to sort out the longer it is left, so there is a strong argument for stepping in now.

Also, if there are serious financial iregularities going on, it's only a matter of time before the owner of the land notices, especially if it's the Council who as a public body should be making sure their assets are managed responsibly. Steps may then be taken to end the whole arrangement - you could lose the site completely.

re "buying" the tenancy - it is possible to buy a lease from a tenant, providing the lease allows this, which most allotment tenancy agreements won't do. The lease would have to be properly assigned to the purchaser, and I very much doubt from what you have said that this has happened. If the tenancy has been "sold" in breach of the conditions, action can be taken against the original tenant to end the tenancy, at which point your shouty horse lady will no longer be entitled to occupy the land.

If it is Council land, there should either be an agreement leasing it to the allotment committee or an agreement for the committee to manage the land. Either of these should contain terms stating what animals can/can't be kept there, whether plots can be assigned, how the committee should be constituted etc and what will happen if the terms are breached. Useful to know, even if you don't want to involve the Council and risk losing the land. 

An advantage of joining the committee is that you ought to have access to all the documentation, which you can then take to a CAB (free) or a solicitor (not free). Good luck, and keep on fighting the fight!

I would check that the 10 plots have not been sub-let which is normally not allowed.

Make sure you also keep copies of all the information.

It sounds like she is frightened she is going to be kicked off the site.