Somebody asked me today if I gardened my lotties organically,I answered oh yes,then got to thinking about it.Do I really??
Weedkillers...no
Plant remedies..no
Soap for aphids...yes
Slug pelletts..rarely cos John bought them,but they are gone and won't be replaced
but if I use the new safe ones are they considered organic.
Fertilisers..yes, poo, seaweed concentrate,blood, bone meal, lime and tomato feed( says organice on the bottle but I can't remember it's name).I do use acid Miracle grow occasionally on my blueberries but they ar not on the lottie, and I did have the bag of Growmore I asked a lot of questions about but I ended up giving it away.
Oh and I wipe my storage squash in a mild bleach solution.
So of I was to go completely organic, what would that be please?
XX Jeannine
Don't know. All I do is avoid anything that might harm the children.
But I do spray Bordeaux.
you're gardening naturally, jeannine, we do the same..organic is such an emotive word, I think it would be really hard to do it strictly..
what happens if a bee fertilises an unorganic crop then fertilises yours, does that do something ?
are the horses we get our manure from fed with organic feed ?
I've given up thinking about it and just , as I say, be as natural as i can :)
and if your neighbour douses everything in chemicals, there's naff all you can do to stop wind carrying it, or it leaching through the soil to your garden or plot.
Blood, bone etc rarely organicly produced but possible, chicken pellet fertiliser mainly come sfrom battery hens ( but you can get "organic"). Its easier to become organic once the garden is established if its sizeable enough to provide all the compost needed, otherwise its quite tricky.
I claim organic pretentions but must admit to using the odd bit of packet fertilizer, and i use tap water (added chlorine?) as there's not enough stored rainwater to see me through.
This one riles me. "organic "-well you have to have a label to be called organic.
I once heard someone on the TV say " I want flavour and I want freshness and that means organic"-what utter rot-an MM grown organically and then left to hang around for weeks is still "organic"
I have no qualms about using weedkiller now and again-I don`t use pesticides apart from a bit of Savona (soft soap)-and I do compost stuff to feed the soil.
I`m happy in my own skin about that
Yup, I garden naturally too. I went 'off' organic, when someone on an organic site refused to accept my attitude, claiming that it had to be total to be considered organic (talking amateur gardening here). Chestnut compound (Cheshunt?) is on the list of approved chemicals for treating damping off on tomatoes, but it is still a very toxic chemical ... (there appears to be no alternative, so I have been led to believe). I therefore accept the limitations of my environment, and live as healthily as I can realistically. No deliberately added toxins, but I won't lose sleep over it.
Derek :)
Some toxins and chemicals occur naturally . Does that mean they are not organic?
Thank you all.Tim what is Boardeux?
Quote from: tim on June 11, 2007, 09:12:34
Don't know. All I do is avoid anything that might harm the children.
But I do spray Bordeaux.
Gardeners TIPsy
I try to garden using organic methods. Having said that I am using blue pellets for some stuff so... :-X
For me it's 'natural gardening'. like so many here have already said, Organic is such a label - it means different things to different people. In M & S or Sainsbury's it means you pay a lot more for a lot less and on the lottie it means you grew it yourself without spraying it to death. ;D
I bet most of us who don't count ourselves as organic nevertheless have greatly reduced the chemicals we use. Twenty years ago we'd have happily sprayed at the first sign of insect attack. I can't remember the last time I sprayed roses with anything against anything and they're fine. I suppose we take a kind of Integrated Pest Management approach - use every trick in the book to reduce pests, and then only as a last resort think about using a chemical control
I don't like the term Organic either, if only because the alternative word to Organic is Inorganic,for me anyway, and that's not right, particularly since Bordeaux Mixture is allowed, and that's about as inorganic (and synthetic) as they come. I've never used it, I assume it's a fungicide, like Cheshunt. If it's on the allowed list as someone said because it's the only thing that works, then that's no different from what I do
To be honest, I don't like Natural either, not just because the alternative ie what I do, would be Unnatural. Using the word Natural is misleading because nearly everything we grow, apart from some salads and herbs, is far removed from any natural species. The closest is probably parsnip, where you can get a reasonable cultivated parsnip after about half a dozen generations from the wild species. Course the irony is that parsnip is one of the most unreliable veg we grow.
Another reason why Natural is not quite right is because of course most of our fruit and veg is not only not native to Britain, it's not even native to Europe. All our beans (except Broad beans) come from the Americas, and tomatoes too. All our large fruited strawberries for example come originally from American plants, and not the native wild strawberry. The list is pretty endless. One of the criticisms against the West regarding Africa (for instance) is that we encourage them the grow cash crops - cereals, tobacco, maize etc which are not suitable or native to the region, and the only way they can do it successfully is with extra irrigation, pesticides and artificail fertilisers. In a way, that's exactly what we do on our plots. It's not really surprising that we can struggle without some kind of intervention
Bordeaux mixture is a mixture of copper sulphate and hydrated or slaked lime and water. I think it was originally used in Bordeaux to treat vine fungus but has a lot more applications e.g.early blight.
I don't know that copper based sprays are a problem, but I was genuinely surprised to see that they're considered organic. I suppose that if they're used against blight, then commercial growers use them whether or not there's a problem, which perhaps goes against the spirit of things too.
I worry more about what's gone on on the plot before I got there. It's not the greatest thing in the world to dig up an old battery for instance, and quite what old carpet breaks down into I don't at all know. Mr Flowerdew used to recommend putting down carpet to suppress weeds, but maybe he could afford pure wool ones.
One of our plotholders keeps his plot reasonably clear but doesn't actually grow anything. He just uses it as a handy place to burn the rubbish he generates from whatever he goes for a living. That's a bit scary too, for whoever comes next
Rhubarb Thrasher, that sounds like the plot we have inherited. Mostly fine, but at the end was a rectangle of metal corrugated sheets full of soil & stuff which had been used as a fire pit while the plot was derelict.
We knew that a load of old kitchen cabinets and a kids paddling pool had been burned in there which was when the site rep put a stop to fires on the site full stop after the smoke, smell and complaints that it caused.
Unfortunately, in clearing it out we've found what may be asbestos. We're having it checked out by a mate who does factory site management for a living & hoping it's the concrete equivalent.
I am sparing with weedkiller & only use it while we are clearing this overgrown plot to give ourselves a fighting chance & use slug peletts sparingly until the plants are robust enough to cope with the odd nibble, but this takes "organic" in any form and chucks it out of the window for now!
Having said that, my last plot was on a site that ran as a strip down the railway sidings. That was an interesting intellectual discussion on the nature of organic!
yep, YOU may try to be organic, but "chemical ali" who was there before you might have left a lasting legacy :(
On the asbestos issue, if its asbestos cement dont worry too much as its difficult for it to release fibres unless you drill or cut it. I work in an environmental consultancy and might be able to offer better advice if you post a pic.
This is such a difficult question, have seen various disscussions on this subject on line.
Some people say that it is where no chemical pesticides, herbicides etc. have been used, however others go as far as making sure the raised beds etc. are not leaching any chemicals into the ground, and items like cabbage collars are natural and organic.
I think that organic is whatever you percieve it to be........I personally dont use any soap, bug spray, herbicies, peticides etc. but I don't worry about the wood, mulch and gravel etc.
Kathi
Mmmm ... one of my plots is beside the railway line. I've often wondered about that.
well, paraquat has a half life of 1000 days, glyphosate (roundup) 47 days.
grawc, wouldnt want to worry you but im sure ive heard that they used to spray arsenic on rail lines to stop insects getting into the sleepers etc :o :o half life of that - decades!
Thanks David R.
With work etc , It'll be Friday I think before I get back to the plot but will take a piccie of what's left.
On the asbestos front, my dad was in the Merchant Navy & I have pictures of him in the 1950's standing beside pallets of hessian like sacks of raw asbestos that they were loading onboard. And all the men were smoking! At the time of course, it was all perfectly acceptable. Thankfully, although he did absorb some fibres, but they didn't give him any problems, just showed up on every x-ray.
Wonder what we are doing now that will be totally unacceptable in 20 years time.
Yes i've seen lots of plots alomg railway lines. I'd have thought they were now pretty clean places, though you don't know what happened historically, and then you've got any spraying on the embankments
Do people still put soot on plots? What was that for-just to get rid of it, or to make the soil darker, so it absorbed more heat?
Isn't arsenic supposed to have aphrodisiac properties?
Trains running on diesel will spit out the odd particulate or two of heavy metal residue, never mind the results of flushing while not in a station. At least the brakes don't spew out asbestos dust nowadays. Do they?
I suppose similar considerations apply if you're near a road (apart from the flushing I hope) ??? At least we've taken the lead out of the petrol, and replaced it with carcinogenic benzene, tho that's being phased out, down to 1% from more than 20% in the 70's
This post has revealed some fascinating stuff, I wonder actually if anyone can claim to be truly organic.
The arsenic as an aphrodisiac amused me, I wonder who was the first one to try that out!!
The plot across the road to me which has just changed hands has an asbestos shed on it, the council are coming to shift it though,that will be interesting.
It is funny what we use these days that would probably be banned if it was new today,not lottie stuff of course,but salt,sugar and tobacco probably wouldn't get through the food and drug boys.
I suppose if we are all doing the best we can we are doing OK.
I wonder too of there are any restrictions on lotties as to what they can use or is some stuff banned.
XX Jeannine
Organic is a difficult term - first meaning is carbon based chemistry (covalent bonds, etc) - well, a lot of the insecticides are "organic" compounds from a chemistry point of view.
Is being "organic" a shopper in Wales buying organically grown carrots from Egypt instead of "non-organic" carrots from Scotland? Is there "organic" method of transport - i.e. not flying food from miles away that were grown organically... ?
"organic" has been over hyped in the media-apart from the statement I posted yesterday I also heard a judge of gardens saying "I am looking for `organic` so I want to see a compost bin"
Remember every celeb chef using extra virgin olive oil-even though it is not suited to frying at high temperatures?
rantm rant
we're having the same old problem, one of the members is talking about 'blitzing 'his plot with farmer's weedkiller, at the end of the season, then 6 weeks later, doing it again..
well, i don't know about you but, we don't have an end to the season, there's always something growing there, leeks, brassicas, chinese veggies, parsnips..I'm thinking of proposing that certain weedkillers should be banned from the site >:( :)
Oh I would be getting angry about that. Is he allowed to have the stuff or has he wangled it from someone.If he has got it via the back door maybe you could challege him on it. That is not easy I realise, could you tell him fib and say you are severley allergic to weedkillers, that you can get a reaction up to 4 weks later and you need a copy of the bottle/box so when they take you to hospital they know how to treat you immediately. He would have to be a bit of a cad if he still did it.
Good luck on this one XX Jeannine
Actually I think I am going to bring this up at our next meetind as I want to know the policy on our lottie
he's got a 'friend' who will let him have some >:(
He is not licensed to use it then,there has to be someone you can contact because he dosen't know what he is doing if he has no license, and i think he could be in truoble for trying. I would follow it through quickly XX Jeannine
I've informed the committee, and told them our thoughts about it :)
Well done. XXJeannine I think this sort of stuff should be lottie policy
I think farmers use glysophate, only difference its in undiluted form which they make to their own strength and you don't need a licence for it
My mother just bought some sodium chlorate from Wilkinsons, after someone told her it was good for keeping weeds off the paths. Strictly speaking she's right. Nothing would grow there probably for about five years.
You can usually grow stuff after 1 year of of using Sodium Chlorate but you have to be careful with it as it spreads.
I would not know if i grow organic or not. I do know that i would not touch Organic Compost with a barge pole with a bottle of Demestos on the end.
I could not tell you if organic veg taste,s any different to mine. All i want at the end of the day is a good result for the hard work i have put in.
I make up my own fertilizers of Ammonia. Lime, Potash and Fish Blood and Bone (recipe,s are available) i also use Growmore. I spray my veg with Lemon washing up liquid and only if i cant blast something off or get rid of it by another method i use Bug Clear
Its very hard for allotment holders to be organic as when other plot holders who use chemicals spray there plot it will be carried on the wind to your plot.
compost is another thing we should think about. What's wrong with organic compost btw, not that i've ever used it? It used to worry me that I was growing things to make a lovely garden for wildlife etc, and at the same time contributing to the destruction of the Irish peat bogs, some kind of unique natural enviromnent, the like of which we'll never see again. We might complain that the compost we use now is a bit useless, but that's a small price to pay I think
This is a great thread - I found the following dictionary definitions for organic:
Organic farming is a form of agriculture which avoids or largely excludes the use of synthetic fertilizers and pesticides, plant growth regulators, and livestock feed additives. As far as possible organic farmers rely on crop rotation, crop residues, animal manures and mechanical cultivation to maintain soil productivity and tilth, to supply plant nutrients, and to control weeds, insects and other pests.
Organic horticulture is the science and art of growing fruits, vegetables, flowers, or ornamental plants by following the essential principles organic agriculture in soil building and conservation, pest management, and heritage-species preservation.
Organic food is produced according to certain production standards. For crops, it means they were grown without the use of conventional pesticides, artificial fertilizers, human waste, or sewage sludge, and that they were processed without ionizing radiation or food additives
Don't know if this helps much, I think that if you are being as "organic" as you can be, and are happy to eat your "organic" crops, then you must be being organic! :)
There is a very high possibility that I am wrong ::), but thought that the rules made by the soil association for farmers who want to be classified as organic, state that the land has to be free from pesticides etc for 7 years before the term organic can be applied.
My general feeling on our allotment is that I will try to grow things as naturally as poss. with minimal use of slug pellets etc. Going on the theory that at least I know what has been used on the food that I am going to feed my family with.
Coznbob, you're right, but the soil association actually exceeds government "Organic" standards:
"Wherever you see it you can be sure that the food you have purchased has been produced and processed to strict animal welfare and environmental standards. The Soil Association has probably the highest and most comprehensive standards for organic production and processing in the world.
Our standards not only meet the UK government's minimum requirements but in many areas are higher. This is particularly true with animal welfare (for example, pigs and poultry) and the use of pesticides."
Kathi
Ahh, good. Glad to see I haven't given all my brain cells to the kids!
I think the term organic means different things to different people, sometimes I think to some people it is more of a fashion statement and a declaration of wealth, than an idealology. But as long as we all can keep some kind of balance with nature it will help in the long run.
The UK organic standards I think are higher than other countries. What is, say "organic" in Hungary might not reach the UK standards if it was grown in exactly the same way here?
Here's something about the French ones:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_biologique (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_biologique)