I know this is a dumb question for a gardening forum but I would like to ask how many of you are vegetarian and to what extent eg the real Mcoy or just non meat eaters etc.
For years I have wanted to switch and never really tried very hard, I would like to ,and am interested in how folks did it, what was the hard part etc.
I thought about trying it half way ,maybe on some days and not others, sort of like stopping smoking. I know at this point it would have to be just cutting out meat, and it will be hard as John is not a big veggie eater.
I am probably nuts at my age, but I do sincerely want to have a go.
Any help, advice very much welcomed.
Thank you in advance.
XX Jeannine
I stopped eating meat about 15 years ago & was followed by the rest of the family - one at a time - OH being the last. We still eat some fish but my main reason for stopping eating it was to do with the conditions the animals were kept in & the disgusting stuff like 'reclaimed meat' - I just didn't want anything to do with it. Now one can buy meat from animals which have had good lives I wouldn't mind eating it theoretically but actually couldn't do it.
I found it easy to do - much easier than stopping smoking. The only time I really miss it is when I small a bacon sarnie but then all veggies say that. :)
Good luck & let us know how you get on.
You know that is my reason too, I have eaten veal for that reason so need to extend it XX Jeannine
Good on you J ;D Give it a go Jeannie! I've been veggie for about 15 years and vegan on and off and like Mary I cannot stand to see animals suffer. I collect veggie recipes and can send you a CD with all my recipes if you like. I still have to finish converting some of the documents but It's nearly ready. There is really no need to eat meat, being veggie has made be a better cook!!
PS my mum became veggie a few years ago after the mad cow scare, my dads the only meat eater in the family!
Biscombe that would be lovely,I raelly want to do it,but I guess thats what the heavy smokers sat too.
By the way, my comment about veal should have read I don't eat it!!!I could never it gives me the shivers thinking about it.
I do have a freezer full of meat though!!
I was at a gathering recently that was veggie and all the food was great.
Any way day we are having fish, funny to start on Good Friday eh
Thanks for the encouragement. I have afew veggie books as I do cook for veggie friends so will be reading them to day.
XX Jeannine
Hi Jeannine,
I have been veggie for about 22 years [so much for it being a 'phase'!] and could not think about eating meat again ever, I do feel healthy and think that I have a great varied diet. Me husband is not veggie so if he has meat we make sure it is free-range/organic which hopefully ensures the animal has been well cared for. My philosophy is that I don't eat any thing with a face or a mom[!] so that includes fish/chicken/etc which some 'veggies' do still eat. I do eat eggs and cheese, again free-range and feel comfortable about that. Loads of recipes I would be happy to share if you like :) :) :)
I like your idea, and it would be great to aim for but I will blow it if I do it too quickly,so thought at first scrap all meat but chicken , then drop the cjhcken but keep the fish, then see after that, but I think I will try to drop the chicken in the first flush too. XX Jeannine
i was veggie for 15 years (since i was 11) last year i was pregnant and started eating meat as it was what i craved i just had to have it. i did feel quilty but baby obviously wanted protein!
i'm b/f at the mo and still eating meat but will go back to being a veggie over the summer when baby is weaned (as a veggie)
I stopped eating meat about 8 years ago because of the appalling conditions that some animals endure in the name of farming, I still eat fish but not farmed and try to ensure its sustainably caught. OH eats meat but only if it's had a happy, preferably organic, life. I don't miss it at all. Eat eggs, cheese milk etc but organic if at all poss :) Go for it Jeannine, I found it so much easier than giving up smoking - 3 weeks of total hell!!
We went veggie, just eating fish for a few weeks , then totally veggie.
A friend of mine looked a veggie recipe one week, and ate that every monday, the next week, she looked for another recipe and ate that every tuesday, and so on. 7 Weeks later, she was eating veggie 7 days a week, and added to her repertoire bit by bit.
I suppose it's got to be an individual thing. Whatever works for you.
Although it seems a really difficult thing, it doesnt take long before it is second nature. My son is vegan, which was a nightmare when he started, but even that is much easier now. We often eat vegan, as it is easier than making different meals.
cj :)
Well I managed it Ok today and John enjoyed it, have been searching for ideas for tomorrow in books but not yet.I can make veggie chilli, I use that Linda Mcartnet Micky Mouse meat,we will see. XX Jeannine
Jeannine,
Asda do a very nice veggie mince in the frozen food dept. I think it is £1.99 a packet. I usae it to make cottage pie, spaghetti bolognese and curries. I like it much better than the other makes, but that is just a case of personal taste. Have you tried the quorn and mushroom pies, and the Lynda McCartney pies? They are delicious!
Phil is a big fan of Asda veggie Lincolnshire sausage, again, frozen, although I think they are a bit cardboardy.
Holland and Barrett do a frozen polony sausage by Fry's. It is lovely fried, and to me tastes a bit like black pudding, although that could be because I havent had black pudding for years!
cj :)
Oh thanks Caroline, I shall try the sausages for sure, and the polony sound useful too.
We have managed to get through day 2.. left over pasta from yesterday with an asparagus omelette and baby peas. John is not impressed, he covered his omelette in mango chutney because of the aparagus,then he saw my face and ate the lot. What a waste of asparagus, it was the first really good pick too. Picked rhubarb so the crumble sweetened the blow.
A neighbour told me to help myself to PSB which I have never grown, cooked ,or eaten so I feel a stir fry?? coming on.
Not sure how I will do a Sunday dinner without meat yet,might nip up to Asda!!
I know I will quickly run out of ideas from memory,so I need to get a better book. I thought I was well covered for veggie visitors with books but they are really special occasion things and I can't see John going for nut cutlets. He is trying though bless him.
Thanks for the tips, XX Jeannine
I've been Veggie for 21 years - not so strict now as I used to be - "don't eat anything with a face" is how my OH puts it. ;D
Never found it difficult to give up, just stopped eating meat and fish, was very strict at 1st, but found eating out a nightmare, how do you tell if Vegetable suet used, or vegetable fats etc, so now, still strict at home, but not when out!
perhaps I am missing something here.
Why does John have to become a veggie just because you want to?????????
Remember no more bacon sarnies at work Jeannine!!!!!!!!!!
Alan
just some thoughts from a meat-eating don't really know what I'm talking about person....don't cows have to calve before they produce milk and aren't the calves then taken from them? And aren't milk-cows then needed to be milked twice a day to offload all the milk they produce for the baby they no longer have and are in agony if this isn't done? So if I've got even a bit of this right, why are you 'vegetarians' still drinking milk and eating milk products - the result of on-going cruelty?
Oh! and what happens to the milk cows when they're too old to be a viable commercial proposition?
And what became of their babies? :'(
Well Hello Big Al, Shall we tell now. Come on now are you going to tell or am I!!!!
John is supporting me!!!
XX Jeannine
PS How's life int he new shed !!!!
Lish, you are right, but speaking as a 2 day non meat eater I am no authority, I don't have a problem with milk ,cheese, butter or eggs, it's the eating bodies that is starting to get to me. It probably won't last and I know I could never be a proper vegetarian, I am not even going to try,I am just trying to stop eating meat. The poor fish are still in jeopardy from me though, so I really don't have much of an arguement actually. I'me crackers, I agree XX Jeannine
Didn't mean to imply that I thought you were 'creamed' Jeannine ;D
Should you stick with it tho, when we get into summer I think that John won't notice the absence of meat? As your plot starts to produce more and more, there are so many meat-free recipes for the veggies you'll be harvesting, speshlly courgettes :P ;D
Quote from: Jeannine on April 07, 2007, 18:19:07I can't see John going for nut cutlets.
Who can blame him :-X :-X :o
Quorn fillets are great as a replacement for chops or sausages, lemon and black pepper is my fave: http://www.quorn.co.uk/CMSPage.aspx?ssbid=67&pid=17
I also really like the Linda McCartney sausage rolls.
My mum makes a chunky veg stew so filling you don't even miss the meat. Mmm, dumplings. ;D
I've been veggie most of my life - and see it as the norm so am not about to preach about converting anyone! It's a personal thing - my daugter switched of her own accord at about 13 - she did some research about factory farms etc - and that was that! So it's nice to have a fellow V in the house. My son is kind -of - but at 7 I feel he is just following suit and he does eat meat occasionally but will choose Quorn or whatever by choice given the chance.
So yes! - to me the allotment and GYO is very important as I know we are eating food that is untampered with and fresh as it can be. PLus the choice is wider and of course it's cheaper!
Louise
Quote from: Alishka_Maxwell on April 07, 2007, 19:57:11
just some thoughts from a meat-eating don't really know what I'm talking about person....don't cows have to calve before they produce milk and aren't the calves then taken from them? And aren't milk-cows then needed to be milked twice a day to offload all the milk they produce for the baby they no longer have and are in agony if this isn't done? So if I've got even a bit of this right, why are you 'vegetarians' still drinking milk and eating milk products - the result of on-going cruelty?
Oh! and what happens to the milk cows when they're too old to be a viable commercial proposition?
And what became of their babies? :'(
Another attack on vegetarians who are doing there bit for animal cruelty.
Have you ever given to charity ? Ever given them everything you have ? Sold your house, sold your car ? Why not ? Surley you believe in the charitys you give to ?
Direct question to me, I feel, so a direct answer >:(
My questions were in the light of someone genuinely wanting knowlege, is all. No attack.
You then ask if I've ever given a 'charity' everything I have? The significance of this is what, I wonder ???
The answer tho, is that I've given away all the money I've had in my bank account at a certain time because the recipient needed it and I didn't - I was, after all, in a position to earn more and that person was not....but WTF that has to do with vegetarianism I cannot understand. :-\
Alishka, You asked why vegetarians are still drinking milk and eating milk products, I asked if you had given all to charity, you don't see the connection, i'll explain. If someone donates £10 children in need i don't ask them why they haven't donated more, i'm happy that they have made a donation, but non-vegetarians think it is ok to ask why vegetarians are still drinking and eating dairy products ignoring what they are actually doing to stop animal cruelty.
If you didn't mean to attack then i aplogise :)
QuoteIt probably won't last and I know I could never be a proper vegetarian
Hey Jeannine,
dont put yourself down. What you are doing can only help to reduce animal cruelty. If evryone who feels strongly about animal cruelty does a bit, then that will all add up to less demand in the shops. The producers will then recieve less orders, and so breed less animals. That means less animals will suffer. It is not something that will change overnight, but if we all add a drop to the bucket, we will fill it eventually.
Quotejust some thoughts from a meat-eating don't really know what I'm talking about person....don't cows have to calve before they produce milk and aren't the calves then taken from them? And aren't milk-cows then needed to be milked twice a day to offload all the milk they produce for the baby they no longer have and are in agony if this isn't done? So if I've got even a bit of this right, why are you 'vegetarians' still drinking milk and eating milk products - the result of on-going cruelty?
Oh! and what happens to the milk cows when they're too old to be a viable commercial proposition?
And what became of their babies?
I agree that there is still cruelty going on in the dairy industry. I only use organic dairy products, as the animals are treated much better, although there are still problems with the methods used. I dont want to return to eating animals just because I cant stop ALL cruelty.
It's good to discuss this, but please lets all stay friends ;D
cj :)
Jeannine, Quorn do a quite nice roast thing which makes a good Sunday lunch, Tesco's do a nice nut roast or they are easy to make & Couldron sausages are so good I bet your John wouldn't tell the difference. Any of these with all the trimmings & you have a traditional Sunday lunch.
Funny how upset some people get about all this. :)
Accepted. :)
Me, I eat meat tho I've not slaughtered animals. I have tho, the skills required to gut (paunch) carcasses, skin them & joint them. I've no problems with that. Each to his own.
But I return to my question to vegetarians.......If your turn-off has its basis in cruelty to animals, then surely the vegan stance that cruelty to animals encompasses milk production must be weighed?
Therefore, shouldn't your 'argument' (for want of a better word) be directed towards vegans?
They, then, would also answer my queries about my thoughts on milk production.....as I wrote initially, what do I know? Me, a City Slicker, who gets her info. from The Archers..... ;D
End of the day, might give Food for Thought to Jeannine for her to decide what she'll be happy with?
Would it be permissible for someone to give the carnivore's side of the discussion?
I am an unashamed meat eater, I have no intentions of becoming vegetarian nor, at worst, vegan.
The meat I buy is either from a local butcher or, travelling a bit further afield, from the Chatsworth Farm Shop. The animals have been reared under humane conditions. They have 'lived a free roaming life' as opposed to the supermarket intensively farmed creatures. I would never, ever buy supermarket meat. It has no provenance, it could have been reared anywhere in the world, and because it was packaged in the UK it can be classed as british.
My other irritation with vegetarians is the 'Lynda McCartney' et al syndrome, aka substitutes for meat. They make sausages from ersatz ingredients. It is made of 'stuff' to make you think it is meat. Why don't you just eat the meat?
From one of the earlier posts 'Asda might do a 'nice tasting something or other' whether it be quorn, or any other tasteless pap. Please, don't try to insult we carnivores with ersatz meat.
I think I am going against the grain with my opinion on this site, but I do enjoy my meat, and shall continue to do so, ad infinitum!!!
valmarg
I too love to eat meat and wether it is killed humanely or otherwise the fact that I am eating somethings flesh is starting to bother me, so the logical move for me is to stop eating itl For me it is that simple,I have nothing against anyone who eats meat or doesn't it is no different to me saying I am stopping eating fish cos it makes my urine smell funny. It is just basic thing that has crept over me for some years, it is getting stronger and I feel it is time to act on it.XX Jeannine
Quote from: Jeannine on April 08, 2007, 00:01:55
I am stopping eating fish cos it makes my urine smell funny. It is just basic thing that has crept over me for some years, it is getting stronger and I feel it is time to act on it.XX Jeannine
As an ex geriatric nurse I can tell you it's a age thing, J !- older you get the more it pongs :P ;) ;D
asparagus does that to me but I'm not gonna stop eating it. At least mines not gonna be put down to my age. hahahaha
Funnily enough the milk thing bothers me more than the meat. Having breastfed my 3 kids I certainly wouldn't appreciate being made to produce milk for the whole of my natural life and have it pumped off at regular intervals. Also can't be much fun to go through pregnancy and labour and then have your baby taken away.... Time after time..
Meat on the other hand I buy from the local farm. The animals have a good life and are slaughtered humanely.
I tend to buy farmed locally sourced fish provided I know it has had good living conditions rather than depleting stocks of natural wild fish. The horrors of massive nets containing living creatures most of which get dumped as dead carcases are not for me.
And I eat more and more vegetables so less and less meat.
I sometimes wonder whether cabbages cry when we chop them up. Also find myself thinking of scifi situations (eg The Matrix) where we are aghast at "aliens" doing to us in fiction what we do to other animals in reality.
Then there's the food chain... but other carnivores and omnivores kill when they're hungry they don't create farms and massive stores of ready food.
So many questions such unsatisfactory answers.
I blame Lish!! ;D :P
Quote from: valmarg on April 07, 2007, 23:18:57
My other irritation with vegetarians is the 'Lynda McCartney' et al syndrome, aka substitutes for meat. They make sausages from ersatz ingredients. It is made of 'stuff' to make you think it is meat. Why don't you just eat the meat?
From one of the earlier posts 'Asda might do a 'nice tasting something or other' whether it be quorn, or any other tasteless pap. Please, don't try to insult we carnivores with ersatz meat.
It was me earlier, banging on about quorn. I love meat, would eat red meat every day if I could, but now I'm Middle Aged and some days I can almost hear my arteries hardening. So I eat the fake stuff once or twice a week. It's good. No, really. :P
Quorn is great because it takes on flavours really well, works perfectly with marinades etc. Also, with the fake stuff, there's never any gristle :-X
I admire anyone prepared to give up bacon butties for their principles. I was a veggie for four years in my teens, then one sunny day my dad threw some chicken on the barbie, and that was the end of that.
Quote from: grawrc on April 08, 2007, 12:45:26
I blame Lish!! ;D :P
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I think it's really good that our awareness of animal husbandry's been raised.
I still don't know the facts about milk-producing cows tho...do they have to be repeatedly impregnated to keep the flow coming, or is it the continued milking that keeps the supply on tap? And what happens to cows which have come to the end of their useful life?
Told you that I'm a City Slicker :-[ Twas only a couple of years ago that I realized that many cows also suffer intensive rearing conditions in sheds.
As a committed carnivore who would probably not baulk at cannibalism given extreme circumstances when there was a handy supply of fresh meat, now that I know how cheapo meat is produced, I wanted to buy only 'happy meat from contented animals'. But then I realized that those same happily reared animals can be transported under stress to a Government Approved abattoir some distance hence, and I'm not happy with this, or the methods of stunning & stringing up before killing.
SO...I prefer to eat game and pick the shot out. To clean out a full crop of undigested feed signifies to me, at least, a swift end. Then I watched deer being shot.....was happy with that, as I saw a swift end in natural conditions - and the rest of the herd not even bothered. So that was OK.
More and more tho, I eat less and less meat, cos my vegetable cooking's tasty and filling on its own.
Except today. Unless there's a three-legged happy lamb hopping round a field somewhere ;)
I aint giving up fish, pong or no pong, just meat XX Jeannine
I was a veggie for a few years,but I just missed meat and where I now live I can get quality stuff.
Advice to anyone wishing to convert?-don`t go for psuedo `meat` products there is a whole world of tasty nutritious recipes out there without needing them.
It takes a bit longer and maybe a bit more planning to soak beans and pulses etc but for anyone converting I wish you well and you can eat wonderfully-it`s not just nut cutlets and bean curd
I do like food but....... don't see the point of taking out one processed food for another. How ever some times I just crave a bit of processed too. I like the idea of having a few day veggie style but oh Thursday is hot pork sandwich day at work and it just makes my week. I start looking forward to it the moment I finish the previous Thursday. Yum apple sauce, stuffing, pork and crackling. :)
I eat meat, I will always eat meat and apart from the sauce its the best thing about any meal IMO.
However I respect anyones wishes who wants to stop eating meat and I respect the food I eat and the animals welfare. Financially if I won the lottery I would love to eat only organic free range animals but at the moment this isnt 100% possible.
Good luck with your endeavours Jeannine
PS if your ever passing through Buxton feel free to drop off that freezer full of meat and you can have my whole years squash harvest - well some of it anyway!
The way i look at it is my body was designed to eat meat so i do!. :)
My sister has been veggie for ten yearsish i think, basically for the same reason as Jeannine - she can't stand the thought of eating 'flesh' as she puts it. I make veg stew for her, baked squash with lovely creamy mushroom filling etc. I only serve meat based dishes 3/4 times a week and i guess that as i start harvesting my own veg it may even be less. I too only buy happy meat but you are always aware of the loopholes that are employed to enable things to be called free range or organic or British.
Poor Alishka! Vilified!! I see what you mean about the milk question. I have a hippy mate who says the same thing about milk cows lives, she says it's disgusting to drink cows milk and is always banging on about it to me about the girls, how could i etc. I went out with a dairy farmer once ( don't ask) and now i come to think of it they did have a bull in a field - what was he for if not to impregnate the cows, activating milk production. Other mammals only lactate when they've given birth so surely the same for cows. You can almost see why people become macrobiotic can't you? Nothing is safe. Just forage for nuts and berries at the roadside, licking puddles for water, live Ray Mears style in woods... ;D
Oh eck, what ever have I done!! Drinking from puddles !! Well day 3 and we are ok still, only three days I hear you ask but that would have been at least three mainmeals all with meat , lots of meat,plus lunch , probably meat again. For me that is a big achievement. It was a laugh though,, ended up as egg and chips followed by rhubarb and custard !! World War 2 all over again
Can anyone suggest a good recipe book for non meat eaters that eat fish, eggs and cheese please....quickly.
Xx Jeannine
On the case - just emailed my bro' who (along with his family) is long-time vegetarian. Not the fastest in replying to emails but will report back as soon as I hear from him.
Sorry Jeannine, but will ask sis on weekend. Forgot to say...Good luck, you've made the decision to do it and i'm sure you will! x If you didn't catch up with the books thread, thanky-ou for the offer, if my mum doesn't have it i'll pm you my addy!
Thank you both, no probs with Daughters of either XX Jeannine
In May last year I stopped eating meat. I am a finicky eater anyway. I've not eaten lamb since my mid twenties because the last bit I tasted was yukky and then I couldn't get the thought of eating a baby animal out of my head. So I don't eat it. My OH lurves lamb and just smirks when I try to give him the guilt....but then I do that on purpose to wind him up but he knows I'm not a dictator and would prefer to him to make up his own mind...which he obviously has done lol!
Right. I gave up on ethical grounds...the cruelty to animals when they are alive and how they are treated etc etc. I maintained that I wasn't a strict veggie I just didn't have anywhere local to shop where I could buy meat that was ethically produced.
Since then I have tried many of the the supermarkets own versions of veggie foods. I've not got any great complaints,they have suited their purpose very well. Asda pretend beef pieces are great. My children even prefer ASDA veggie burgers now.
I discovered in the co op that there is such a thing as RSPCA monitored produce. It's called "freedom food". My local co op only stocks the sausages. I bought some and had my first bit of meat in months just about Christmas time. It was okay...rather disappointing.
In the last couple of months we have had a farm shop open in a village down the road from us. We get all our meat there now. I eat a little beef, though I'm not keen as I have seen the cows in the field and wonder which one it is lol. It tastes really good though after years of supermarket stuff. We've had the rare breed sausies. I don't eat any other part of a pig because it tastes yukky in my opinion...an opinion I have held since about 7 years old. I'm helping a local producer with buying those sausages,I guess in a funny kind of way it helps keep the breed going doesn't it? Does my head in a bit that thought. We've had the organic chicken,sorry but I think Quorn chicken fillets taste just as good. I'm not that impressed.
Don't eat turkey. Cos I don't like it.
Wouldn't eat veal.
Never tried game..I can't remember trying it anyway.
Where I am at now. I am eating mostly vegetarian but have meat from the farm shop about twice a week. My family eat meat more often though they will eat vegetarian without a fuss. OH loves meat but enjoys veggie meals too.
We eat fish once in a while.
We don't buy any meat products from the supermarkets and have found that since I have started to eat a little of the farm shop meat we don't buy much of the pretend veggie meat stuff. The costs seem to even themselves out.
I always eat veggie when I am eating out.
I feel I am doing my bit and I hope I'm doing my bit to support a more responsible attitude towards our farm animals. My OH feels the same and is enjoying a far better quality of meat. We feel our kids will benefit from the quality and also because we talk to them about it.
Lish is right to bring up the subject of milk. We use loads of it. I'm too embarrassed to say how much. I don't know how it is produced...I have an idea but never the truth. Do I want to know the truth? Probably yes even though it will cause me problems in respect of how to deal with the truth.
I will say...as I B F my two children I know the pain of missed feeds or just too much milk. Mastitis is awful and makes you quite ill. I was also told at a B F clinic that a B feeding woman can stop for a matter of months but can start to reproduce milk given the right stimuli. Could that be the same for animals? The scary bit would be the stimuli...the cry of a hungry baby?
I've followed this thread with interest - always have the notion of eating "veggie" at the back of my mind but even tho I have delved into all the methods of production it's amazing how selective my thinking can be and how easily I just keep on pushing that knowledge aside when I am "tucking in" and
I do use the excuse that Mr W is happy with us just being a bit choosy about the meat we buy within our budget (free range where poss, wild fish, never veal etc) In other words I chicken out (pun intended) :-\
On the subject of milk production, the following link is to an American report but the same conditions apply here I am sure
http://www.factoryfarming.com/dairy.htm
Wicker it has been simmering in me for ages,I am determined but mot too hopeful,I think when I get busy will be dangerous. You know what did it for me.
I went to Supersprouts funeral, I ate some couscous and a leek dish, I had no meat, I didn't miss the meat and I enjoyed the delicate leek dish which stayed with me, my mind kept going back to it so last week I bought leeks,cream,celery which I don't like cooked and parmesan cheese. I made up the dish as best as I could from memory but added pasta to it, it was excellent, Supersprouts leek dish with pasta, we ate that on day 1. I didn't feel derived without meat, so I am trying to carry it on.
XX Jeannine
How about this then:
All dairy cows must give birth in order to begin producing milk. Today, dairy cows are forced to have a calf every year. Like human beings, cows have a nine-month gestation period, and so giving birth every twelve months is physically demanding. The cows are also artificially re-impregnated while they are still lactating from their previous birthing, so their bodies are still producing milk during seven months of their nine-month pregnancy.
With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies, it is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a day â€" ten times more than they would produce naturally. As a result, the cows' bodies are under constant stress, and they are at risk for numerous health problems.
Approximately half of the country's dairy cows suffer from mastitis, a bacterial infection of their udders. This is such a common and costly ailment that a dairy industry group, the National Mastitis Council, was formed specifically to combat the disease. Other diseases, such as Bovine Leukemia Virus, Bovine Immunodeficiency Virus, and Johne's disease (whose human counterpart is Crohn's disease) are also rampant on modern dairies, but they commonly go unnoticed because they are either difficult to detect or have a long incubation period.
A cow eating a normal grass diet could not produce milk at the abnormal levels expected on modern dairies, and so today's dairy cows must be given high energy feeds. The unnaturally rich diet causes metabolic disorders including ketosis, which can be fatal, and laminitis, which causes lameness.
Another dairy industry disease caused by intensive milk production is "Milk Fever." This ailment is caused by calcium deficiency, and it occurs when milk secretion depletes calcium faster than it can be replenished in the blood.
In a healthy environment, cows would live in excess of twenty-five years, but on modern dairies, they are slaughtered and made into ground beef after just three or four years. The abuse wreaked upon the bodies of dairy cows is so intense that the dairy industry also is a huge source of "downed animals" â€" animals who are so sick or injured that they are unable to walk even stand. Investigators have documented downed animals routinely being beaten, dragged, or pushed with bulldozers in attempts to move them to slaughter.
Although the dairy industry is familiar with the cows' health problems and suffering associated with intensive milk production, it continues to subject cows to even worse abuses in the name of increased profit. Bovine Growth Hormone (BGH), a synthetic hormone, is now being injected into cows to get them to produce even more milk. Besides adversely affecting the cows' health, BGH also increases birth defects in their calves.
Calves born to dairy cows are separated from their mothers immediately after birth. The half that are born female are raised to replace older dairy cows in the milking herd. The other half of the calves are male, and because they will never produce milk, they are raised and slaughtered for meat. Most are killed for beef, but about one million are used for veal.
The veal industry was created as a by-product of the dairy industry to take advantage of an abundant supply of unwanted male calves. Veal calves commonly live for eighteen to twenty weeks in wooden crates that are so small that they cannot turn around, stretch their legs, or even lie down comfortably. The calves are fed a liquid milk substitute, deficient in iron and fiber, which is designed to make the animals anemic, resulting in the light-colored flesh that is prized as veal. In addition to this high-priced veal, some calves are killed at just a few days old to be sold as low-grade 'bob' veal for products like frozen TV dinners.
The last bit I can verify , the bit about the male calves. I lived in Sheerness for a couple of years and male calf from a Jersey or Guernsey cow was taken to market after birth, they cold not be reared for beef. They were not fed as the butchers wanted them as new baby veal and food in there stomachs changes something in the meat. My job took me into Sheerness market as I took bacon pigs in, I would visit the calf house and see these little mites hungry,they would suck on fingers, it was so distressing that I took bottles of warm milk and discreetly fed them till somebody cottoned on after a few weeks and I got banned from the veal calf area.
It was this single experience that stopped me eating veal, I had done so before,I have never touched it since the early seventies, these calves were slaughtered om Mondays after the Saturday market, some only three days old , the oldest being 1 week. There was no way I could justify that.
XX Jeannine
:o moral of the story is..if you don't want the answer don't ask the question..I'd no idea about the milk cows....whew! Modom Controller, where did you get the info please?
Jeannine, when I decided that I'd only eat 'happy' meat - both in their upbringing & slaughter, as much as I could (so that excludes eating out at friends'...if they're good enough to want to feed me I'm polite enough to accept ;D) I needed to go through my cupboards pretty carefully...Oxo cubes and so on? And gelatine...
Pasta's a good way to go, so so many different sauces there...and veggie curries, and all the things you can do with eggs....oh! and you know your stuffing recipe for turkey? When I saw it I thought it would make lovely veggie-balls with a mushroom+chilli-for-a-kick gravy..and that's what I'm having today 8) Will report back in the Recipe thread later tonight.. :)
http://www.factoryfarming.com/dairy.htm (http://www.factoryfarming.com/dairy.htm) pretty shocking I thought. Could be soya milk for us from now on... :o
Quote from: grawrc on April 08, 2007, 23:51:17
Bovine Growth Hormone (BGH), a synthetic hormone, is now being injected into cows to get them to produce even more milk. Besides adversely affecting the cows' health, BGH also increases birth defects in their calves.
I sympathise with a lot of what you are saying Grawc but just wanted to say that, because of the pain it inflicted on the cows, BST / BGH is illegal throughout the EC though is widely used in USA. There are now concerns about the health impact on those drinking milk or eating meat from animals treated with BGH.
Quote from: grawrc on April 09, 2007, 11:43:58
http://www.factoryfarming.com/dairy.htm (http://www.factoryfarming.com/dairy.htm) pretty shocking I thought. Could be soya milk for us from now on... :o
Don't think soya milk is the answer grawrc, the soya industry has its own problems like deforestation & genetic modification - also some concerns about oestrogens.
I try to buy organic milk when I can but it is only available in big supermarkets round here & I try to avoid them. Sometimes feel I just can't win.
Not my own thoughts, Barnowl. Sorry I should have put it in quotation marks and listed my source:http://www.factoryfarming.com/dairy.htm (http://www.factoryfarming.com/dairy.htm) I do realise it's American and therefore not totally true for what happens in the EU, nevertheless I think it gives food for thought.
This is an interesting debate, I thought I'd throw in a couple of thoughts.
I've been vegetarian for over thirty years. It was agricultural college that did it for me - having to get up at 5.30am and castrate the piglets was the final straw and i switched courses to arboriculture and havn't touched meat (or fish or foul) since.
For me the problem lies with the amount of meat people eat, three portions a day for everybody simply isn't sustainable ecologically. It's reckoned that about 65% 0f all agricultural land is given over to meat production, either the animals are on it or food is being grown for them. That leaves 35% for all the veg, cereals, wine etc that we consume. There's reckoned to be 6 animals for every person. Rainforests are being flattened for pasture, the meat industry is reckoned to be more polluting than the car manufacturing industry.
The solution is to return meat production to being a byproduct of a sustainable agricultural system and not as an end in itself, (good example 2nd WW and dig for victory, meat rationing etc) getting billions of animals pregnant each year and then eating their babies isn't going to work for very long.
So if we have sheep for wool we can have a bit of mutton, if we have hens for eggs we can have an occasional drumstick etc. Meat should be a luxury item and not the staple food it is regarded as today. Next time you're down the allotment try and imagine how much land you'd need to sustain a three portion a day meat habit... you'd probably need the whole site...and the site up the road.
:)
Brilliant reply isbister,
also does anyone know how many male one day old chicks are destroyed every day in the egg 'industry'? /shades x
Interesting you should mention mutton, Isbister. When I was in New Zealand some years ago, they hardly ever ate lamb - reckoned lambs were too lightweight (hence poor value) and hadn't had enough time to develop a proper flavour. They mainly ate hogget (about 12-15 months old) and mutton.
Interesting thread, thought that I would pitch in ....
We decided many years ago to eat a vegetarian diet, not because we were strongly opposed to meat production - but because we were hard up - and meat was/is (and should be) relatively expensive. We did this for 5 or 6 years - no meat at all, only dairy products.
We then introduced a few meals based on meat, a couple of times per week and have continued to eat like this ever since (25 years). I think that the variety of meals that we have is fantastic, far wider than meals based on meat alone - even given the different ways of preparing them.
There are some things that I would like to say tho'.
I abhor maltreatment of livestock - it is unnecessary. The animals deserve to live as they were meant to - and when they do the taste of the meat is so much better.
But people want to eat meat every day and want the product to be cheap enough to do so - this is wrong (in my opinion). We should recognise, and be prepared to pay, the true cost of rearing livestock. Our barmy country (or our political representatives) impose restrictions on our farmers and then allow meat from unrestricted countries to flood our markets - this is insane. We should not buy our meat from such sources.
The vitamin B12 issue. We must have this vitamin in our diet, especially children, and can only really obtain the vitamin from meat & dairy products (there seem to be a few fungus based exceptions that may or may not give useful quantities of this vitamin - see http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html) Veggies and Vegans must get B12 from somewhere - so I guess that greenfly and caterpillars have it :(.
Then the issue of pasture/grazing vs crop. Much of the land that animals live on cannot be used for other purposes - (Sheep farming in Wales is an obvious example - one would need dynamite to plant anything other that grass).
We have a responsibility to support our farmers when they rear/grow our food properly - it costs them - we need to pay them a fair wage. We also need to educate people to eat sensibly - a balanced diet where vegetables form a major component. (An aside: I have seen some parts of a program called "Half Ton Hospital" (sp) where they look after patients that have become so large, through over indulgence, that they are in serious danger. Whilst I feel for these folk I have to say that it seems to be a sad symptom of society where food (OK - beef burgers) are so cheap and available that individuals can get themselves into this condition - especially when there is so much hunger in the world ... nearly went into an angry rant there ... have calmed down now).
I guess that I am saying that people should eat what they want to without feeling guilty .. because it's not wrong to eat meat - but it isn't necessary either. We have to learn about the consequences of our actions - asking for meat every day means that meat production has to increase and tends to result in poorer conditions for the animals.
We, on this site, are obviously involved in the production of vegetables and most likely eat more of these that the average household - so we can all legitimately feel kinda smug ...
A lot of land used for grazing would be unsuitable for arable crops, but a lot of animals are kept in intensive units and fed with crops raised on land which could just as well be used to grow food for humans. That's the really big problem. One of them anyway.
What about the meat industry and global warming?
Raising animals for food generates more greenhouse gases than all the cars and trucks in the world combined.
Read more
http://goveg.com/environment-globalwarming.asp
Good site Biscombe, will go back to it when i have more time. Jeannine, you've got me thinking now!
Here is a link from the goveg site to get a go veggie starter pack (???)
I just like free stuff. :-[
http://goveg.com/order.asp (http://goveg.com/order.asp)
Well Emmy I had a good look at that site, some interesting stuff on there.
Got you thinking ???
I have to admit to feeling a bit smug,I have done this for 7 days now which was my first goal. I think the hardest part is because I like to cook and my hands are tied a lot.
I have eaten a lot more fruit, about the same veggies , some fish but no meat at all, and that what was all I intended to do, cut out the meat.
Yesterday was a bit different, I had bought some langostinas on sale, too many actually , but I could not freeze them so justifed myself into thinking that being a piglet was OK. I had them with steamed asparagus, tons of butter and home baked bread.
John doesn't eat shellfish and as he is really only supporting me in the no meat thing I made him a Fray Bentos steak and kidney pie. It is one of his emergency DIY rations for if I am ever away.Personally I wouldn't touch it!!
Today we did a taste test with three types of veggie sausages, all very very different in tastes and texture but 1 came out as not bad at all.
I am not someone who buys prepared foods so the trip to ASDA to get veggie 'meats' was interesting.
I have been dreaming about lamb chops for three days though.
Thank you for all the interesting stuff posted, some very scary too.
Next goal getting to the end of the month!!
XX Jeannine
It's also extemely inefficient. Only a proportion of the sun's energy gets converted into plant tissue, and only a proportion of that into animal tissue. Farming predatory fish like trout and salmon is even worse.
So which veggie sausages won the taste test, Jeannine?
Quorn mince makes ok bol sauce but i'm prefering it with chunky veg and whizz it down so the girls will eat it.
I hope you're still going Jeannine, if not, that you gave in gracefully to the lamb chop and have enjoyed your veggie weeks!
The only 'veggie food' thing i really love are those Cauldron falafel. They are yum. 8)
Have you tried the mushroom burgers by Cauldron. Yukky!
cj :)
Hi Mary Mary. Sauasages, all we did was brown them in a fry pan in a little oil.
1. Asda Glamorgan sausages...had the consistency of bubble and squeak, very soft, fell apart in the pan,in fact if someone had said it was bubble and squeak it would have made more sense. Rating very low.
2. Quorn, sausages Very pale pink, didn't brown in pan much, insipid looking,consistency was a little chewy,flavour was OK but lacked something?? Colour was off putting
3.Asda Lincolnshire sausages, these looked like a sausage, texture was again a bit chewy but was the same as a very low fat sausage in that repect. Flavour was better than the other 2 by far,they browned well,were well seasoned.I would buy these again. I think they could be made into something more interesting if used in a recipe.
I have used Quorn mince a long time to make a vegetarian chili for a friend.
Anyway, I am still dreaming of lamb chops but have not succumbed yet, I am not finding it difficult but I still feel I will,it is early days.
Tonight I just ate very fresh French bread with butter,a chunk of cheese,cherry tomatoes and some sweet passion fruit and I enjoyed it.Usually I overlook bread as I have lots of everything else,today I wanted to eat bread as a main part of a meal. I am surprising myself.
Thank you for the support
XX Jeannne
bleauurrggg. i cant bear veggie quorn sausages. my husband and youngest son are veggy and they will eat quorn sausages but i find them inedible (me and older son meat eaters). i find the quorn chunks are fine in a curry or a stew. i think you have to learn to love veg and pulses if youwant to succeed at being veggy and if you are eating cheese and eggs etc its not so bad. it just takes a bit of time to get the habit of meat out of the system. personally i think some people are constitutionally natural veggies and some find it harder. as we have two veggies in the family i find we all eat veggy most of the time by default and thats fine.
i would suggest jeannine that if your craving for a lamb chop persists then in a week or so just allow yourself to have one (preferably organic and free range) and then move on. to go from meat everyday to no meat ever is really hard and its not like smoking where "just one" wont hurt. if you lapse once a month it wont matter too much. eventually it wont even be an issue. good luck though :)
Good advice there Sarah love! Jeannine, if all you've done amounts to this : re-evaluated the place and importance of meat in your diet, what meat you buy and where from then it's a good job well done and I wouldn't deprive yourself if you are craving it. Life is, as they say, too short.
Bread is my weakness. Well, one of them anyway. The Atkins would never work for me as I am a carb junkie!
So many gorgeous bread recipes, as you probably know having spent time in the US and Canada. I love potato bread and tomato bread, great for eating with meals. I also have a recipe for courgette teabread i have posted before on recipes. Let me know if you want any recipes. 8)
:) going back to the sausages, Morrisons meatfree sausages taste sooooo good, we had to check the ingredients ;D
They have everything in them but meat ;D /shades x
I agree Shades Morrisons are good & a good price.
Jeannine I haven't tried the Asda Glamorgan & won't bother now after what you said - the Quorn sausages I don't like at all though they do some 'pork & apple' or some such & they are ok. I really like Cauldron Linconshire & their other one - good texture, brown well & nice & spicy - also Linda Mac for barbies & such.
I also agree that one should eat veggies & pulses & things & we mostly do but sometimes in this hectic life a processed sausage with loads of veggies & mustard mash is just what's needed. They are virtually the only processed food we buy - I make all the bread, pizzas etc. :)
Thanks for the new info' it is all so helpful, I will certainly try the new suggestions. I am expecting to stub my toe( give in and and have an have a relapse) but I will move on again,so far I am OK. 2 weeks today since I ate any, that is a very long time for me!!
I tell you what, this veggie thing is sure good for making bum burps, I am so glad I can cross the school playground many times a day and not be stuck in my office, I often get the need to go for a little walkie !!!!
XX Jeannine