I was tempted by the description of couve tronchuda in a seed catalogue, but Beverley Nichols was very disparaging about it. Has anyone grown it, and was it worthwhile?
What is it?
Well the name drove me straight to Google, out of curiosity. The answer to your question is no, and I have never come across it before, although I have led a sheltered existence :D
For the curious ...
http://www.edenseeds.com.au/content/seeditem.asp?id=86 (http://www.edenseeds.com.au/content/seeditem.asp?id=86)
It featured in the "Victorian Kitchen Garden" programme. Its a HUGE cabbage...not grown much anymore, but used to be great for the hungry gap when there were not so many varieties to choose from.
Where to get it? Sorry, no idea ???
Sorry Robert, that was a bit on the terse side wasn't it? :-[ It's an heirloom cabbage :D
Couve Tronchuda (Portuguese Kale, sea-kale cabbage, Galician cabbage, braganza)
CT is non-hearting form of cabbage with large green leaves and prominent white midribs that are available to eat mainly in the autumn. Portuguese restaurants seek it out for their caldo verde.
It's supposed to be sweeter and more tender than most cabbages and kales. Most commonly eaten as a vegetable, though the younger and more tender leaves can be added to salads. It has thick, fleshy white ribs, like Swiss chard, which can be braised and eaten too 'like seakale'. And it can crop all winter.
Seed catalogue descriptions:
Large thick tender leaves have succulent stems and veins. Couve never gets the strong mustard flavor that true cabbages sometimes do. It is essential for caldo verde. It can be cooked like a cabbage and the culture is similar. It should be planted in early spring for late Autumn harvests.
An excellent heat tolerant cabbage. In Portugal the leaves are shredded to make delicious "caldo verde" soup. The hearts and young centres are particularly delicate and agreeably flavoured. Constant picking encourages leaf production, loved by poultry. Sow after frost, also autumn in warmer areas.
An oddball heirloom green. It is a wild, headless cabbage variety that has been cultivated since the days of ancient Rome. Some call it a gourmet collard. The Portuguese are credited with bringing it to the New World in the madeira trade.(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e220/supersprout/couve.jpg)
It sounds delicious and versatile, but I would like to hear from anyone who's tried it!
Quote from: katynewbie on April 11, 2006, 15:24:46
It featured in the "Victorian Kitchen Garden" programme.
Thanks Katy, any excuse to run those DVDs again ;D
Never tried it, never heard of it till this thread - but sounds interesting, I'm game if you are!
That explains how they can describe it as 'Possibly the most ancient of today's vegetables; cultivated for over 4000 years'. Modern hearting cabbages are definitely not ancient!
Quote from: periwinkle on April 11, 2006, 15:45:42
I'm game if you are!
Right periwinkle, I'm gonna get a pack from Chiltern Seeds, what's a couple of squid for so much excitement. Anyone else want to share the fun? Just pm me your addy 8)
Ooooo - I like the sound of that! Can I join in too please :)
Aptly named 'Braganza' isn't it? ;D
Oh! for a lottie rather than a garden plottie, and room to try!...presumably you can use them to make those rice'n'stuff parcels..
Sounds like fun :) like to try new things its the spice of life ;D
Thinking of more ancient veggie types, have toyed with the idea of buying skirret seeds from the organic gardening catalogue.
There is a monastery garden in the south of France that grows the ancient stuff. I read about it in a book. Can't think of name of place but think I have mentioned it on A4A before.
Quote from: Multiveg on April 11, 2006, 18:23:29
have toyed with the idea of buying skirret seeds
Chiltern were selling these too but I was strong!
Quote from: Multiveg on April 11, 2006, 18:23:29
There is a monastery garden in the south of France that grows the ancient stuff. I read about it in a book
Was it this chap?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385490399/thekitchenlinkA/102-1000287-6111366
'Twelve months of monastery soups', gruelling :D
Quote from: supersprout on April 11, 2006, 20:31:04
....
Quote from: Multiveg on April 11, 2006, 18:23:29
There is a monastery garden in the south of France that grows the ancient stuff. I read about it in a book
Was it this chap?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385490399/thekitchenlinkA/102-1000287-6111366
'Twelve months of monastery soups', gruelling :D
No, it was from this book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1890132276/sr=1-1/qid=1144784684/ref=sr_1_1/102-5622909-4474511?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books - The authors travelled to France to have a look at what grew at the same latitude as them in the US.
Oh, this book is another of my bibles multiveg! Will have a look to see if Couve is in there. Thank you!
It's been a week of unusual vegetables: Couve tronchuda, skirret, agretti. I hadn't heard of any of these until recently. Mind you, a Portuguese friend of mine has giant cabbages (4-5 ft tall) in her garden, so that must be the one! Will have to ask her for some seed now 8)!
Sounds possible doesn't it dandelion? If it IS the very 5 ft tall 4,000 year old cabbage (as seen in caldo verde), and your friend is prepared to supply seed from Portugal, I would love to try it too. Pretty please?
:P :D
Glad I'm not the only one growing Couve Tronchuda this year. ;D It's my first year growing it. I was so intrigued by Harry Dobson showing it on Victorian Kitchen Garden, that I thought I'd try growing it. I found a description of it in Shewell-Coopers ABC of Vegetable Gardening, along with how to grow it. I then bought the seeds 2 weeks ago from Chiltern Seeds, along with Skirret, Salsify, and Chopsuey Greens.
I love the old fashioned nature of getting stuff from Chiltern. It's not in everyone's taste but there's no growing instructions, and the seeds are loose in the envelope, not in foil packets. Talking of old fashioned veg, I've also bought Asparagus Peas and Hamburg Parsley from The Organic Gardening Catalogue, has anyone ever grown these? Can't wait to get sowing! ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: MutantHobbit on April 12, 2006, 20:18:33
I love the old fashioned nature of getting stuff from Chiltern. It's not in everyone's taste but there's no growing instructions, and the seeds are loose in the envelope, not in foil packets.
Hi hobbit, yes I love this too. Makes you concentrate more when sowing, cos you have to refer to your Notes.
Hope you don't mind nomination for the resident expert on Couve T (on the grounds that you got the seeds first :D). Four other A4a peeps will be trying seeds from my Chiltern pack too - when will you sow? I am growing H Parsley (first time) this year as someone gave me a swopsie, but it may take a while to germinate. It was sown outdoors on 28 March, not a peep yet. I thought I would keep a few to force in winter for the parsley leaves. Thanks Mr Shewell-Cooper, don't you just love his old photos?
I was waiting for the soil to warm up a bit, which it has done now. Just got to water the beds I've prepared today and station sow them all tomorrow.
I was intending to do the sowing and planting yesterday during the glorious sunshine, but someone had broken into my shed, damaging the door in the process. So I had to waste time going back home to get timber, tools and calm down, tidy up in the shed and then repair the door. >:( I lost two and a half hours doing that, before I could start work on the plots. :(
Still, at least they didn't take much and they didn't burn the shed down, eh. ;)
How frustrating MH, just can't understand the mindset of anyone who could do that :(. Good for you for weighing in and making good so's you could put it behind you. And for looking on the Bright Side (things could be worse :-\) Big bracing sigh, I do wish this wasn't part of the deal but for so many of us it is. Hope it helps to get it off your chest here :-*
The CT seeds arrived today, so I will be posting them off to fellow triallers next week. How many to a station, and how far apart would you suggest?
Quote from: supersprout on April 12, 2006, 06:00:38
Sounds possible doesn't it dandelion? If it IS the very 5 ft tall 4,000 year old cabbage (as seen in caldo verde), and your friend is prepared to supply seed from Portugal, I would love to try it too. Pretty please?
:P :D
Her little girl is a school friend of my daughter. I'll ask when school starts again in a week's time.
I tried it a couple of years ago, didn't think much of it to be honest, shan't bother again
SuperSprout, ta for the commiserations, I got it off my chest down at the allotments as mine wasn't the only shed that was broken into, so it helps keep it in perspective. Fortunately, only a tenner's worth of stuff went missing, it was the damage and waste of time repairing the damage when I could have been doing other things, that made my blood boil. My mother cleared up the mess while I repaired the door Other peoples stuff cost more and more damage was done, so I got off light really.
Anyway, my moaning aside, I've left Mr Shewell Cooper book down the lotty, so I will have to go by memory, but I'm sure he wrote that Couve Tronchuda grows to 18 " to 2 foot across, so plant in the final growing position 2 foot apart. I'm station sowing so will probably put in 2 or 3 seeds 2 foot apart and cover with a poly bottle cloche. I
'll post again with an excerpt from the book, when I bring it back home. It's also got how to prepare and cook the 2 different parts of the plant, do you want that as well?
Dave
MT, any particular problems with it or was it just a taste thing?
Dave
Quote from: MutantHobbit on April 16, 2006, 17:32:23
I'll post again with an excerpt from the book, when I bring it back home. It's also got how to prepare and cook the 2 different parts of the plant, do you want that as well?
That would be very kind, thank you Dave. Yes please! :)
Didn't whether to start a new thread entitled "Has Anyone Cooked Couve Tronchuda?, as this slightly off-topic
. ;D Anyway, here's the excerpt as promised...
Excerpt from “The ABC Of Vegetable Gardening†by W.E. Shewell-Cooper, Chapter XI “Unusual Vegetablesâ€, pages 222 â€" 223
Couve Tronchuda
The Portugal Cabbage, as it is sometimes called, is a strong growing type which requires plenty of room. It has very large midribs, which are thick, white, and tender. These are used in the same manner as seakale. The leaf part and the top part of the plant are used in the same way as ordinary cabbage.
Seed-Sowing. See Chou de Burghley*
Planting. They are transplanted into rich and well-prepared soil as soon as possible. The plant should be set out 2 ft. each way. They should be watered plentifully during dry weather.
Harvesting. As soon as the bottom leaves are large enough they may be cut off and the leaf portion detached from the midrib. Each part should be cooked separately.
*Seed-Sowing. The seed is sown in March or early April in a seed-bed outside. The rows should be 6 ins. apart, and as soon as the plants are large enough to handle they may be planted out into a further seed-bed 6 ins. square. (Taken from Chou de Burghley, page 222.)
Personal Note: Seakale can either be steamed or lightly boiled in salted water with lemon juice added. In The Victorian Kitchen Garden, Harry Dobson said that it was well thought of by cook because it didn't give off a strong smell when cooking.
Hope this helps! I'll add a new thread to draw other people's attention to it.
Dave
QuoteMT, any particular problems with it or was it just a taste thing?
No particular problems, it's just a big cabbage and a bit coarse, too big for me and I prefer some of the smaller modern sweeter ones
Cheers MT. Being a big coarse type meself, it'll probably suit me down to the ground! ;D
Dave
ROFL Dave! Fascinating and very useful posts, thank you. I feel more confident now, will probably sow in modules (loo rolls) and grow four to start with, just to see how the family get on with them. The seeds are going to four other A4a triallists today.
Fun, innit? ;D ;D ;D
Oh yes, most definitely fun. Thanks for all the extra info Dave :) Now I know more about what I'll be growing ;D
No problem, glad to be of help. :) Have finished putting in my potatoes and was busy removing a godawful eyesore of a shack from a neighbouring plot yesterday. I am going to start sowing tomorrow (Friday) as the soil has finally reached 15 degrees, and the 10 forecast is showing a constant double figure range for the first time. Should be fun... ;)
Dave
MH, on an earlier post you asked about Hamburg Parsley i grow it just for the leaves (they look like flat leaved parsley) you will never need to sow parsley again! i edge beds with it and it is winter hardy just like parsnips! the roots taste of celery(you will need to sow again in two years in my experience) hope this is usefull/ angle shades x
Cheers Angle shades!
I didn't realise that the roots taste of celery so it will be a useful addition, along with my celeriacs! Am gonna be spoilt for choice now!
Dave
In London, visiting a friend, I spotted what I now know as Couve Tronchuda (use to call it walking stick cabbage) growing in someone else's tiny patch of a garden - I asked her what nationality the growers were and just knew she was going to say Portuguese. It was charming to see these homesick people growing three gigantic cabbages among their flowers.
I have eaten lots of caldo verde in Portugal and Madeira, and seen the cabbages growing there, but in my experience they are an acquired taste, partly dependent on nostalgia.
An old variety I like is Ragged Jack, or Russian Red. Very attractive, small, tender and sweet. I got the seeds from an elderly neighbour long dead now, and have kept them going.
Do you have a good caldo verde recipe artichoke? :)
I haven't made it for a bit, but when I did it was very much like other soups: fry in butter/oil some finely chopped onion and garlic and some sort of hard tasty sausage, add slices of potato and some chicken (or other) stock and simmer until potato is soft. Personally, I use a potato masher at this stage to break up the potato pieces, as I don't like lumps of potato in soup. Then add the very finely sliced cabbage leaves (roll the leaves up and slice as thinly as possible) and simmer for a few minutes more.
Sorry this is rather vague - I'm sure that a quick google would reveal more precise recipes.
This is the sort of recipe I can follow! Thanks chokey ;D
Well after a shaky start (no mesh) the couve tronchuda is coming good. How is everyone else doing? :)
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e220/supersprout/IMG_0331.jpg)
That looks good SS. I knew this moment would come - confession time. I never quite managed to plant the seeds you sent, they are still in my seed box. So I am afraid it will be next season before I can give any report back. Very sorry - but at least I will know what to expect. :-[
lol nice to hear from you whatever periwinkle, mine nearly came a close second, they sat in their modules for a couple of months before I got around to planting them out and after the cabbage white attack I thought they were goners. Just shows these are tough old brassicas! Haven't made them into caldo verde yet, joys to come! :D
Talking of cabbage recipes I cooked about 6 litres of this one at the weekend which turned out pretty well ...
http://www.riverford.co.uk/recipes/recipe.php?recipeid=213&catid=2 (http://www.riverford.co.uk/recipes/recipe.php?recipeid=213&catid=2)
I did modify the recipe slightly: by adding some of my milder chillis to it at an early stage; couldn't be bothered to finely chop all the veg (apart from the onions and Cavolo Nero) so rough chopped then blitzed in the processor, and also I haven't tried adding the cheese yet.
The omission of garlic is surprising but there is so much flavour it doesn't really need it.
Suspect it's very close to some classic rustic recipe that I should know the name of.......
Sorry, rambling on I completely forgot that I meant to ask whether there is a tried and trusted recipe for Caldo Verde?
Quote from: artichoke on April 25, 2006, 09:26:33
I haven't made it for a bit, but when I did it was very much like other soups: fry in butter/oil some finely chopped onion and garlic and some sort of hard tasty sausage, add slices of potato and some chicken (or other) stock and simmer until potato is soft. Personally, I use a potato masher at this stage to break up the potato pieces, as I don't like lumps of potato in soup. Then add the very finely sliced cabbage leaves (roll the leaves up and slice as thinly as possible) and simmer for a few minutes more.
Sorry this is rather vague - I'm sure that a quick google would reveal more precise recipes.
I'm going to use this one from Artichoke, and I might take a peek at the River Cafe (not cottage lol) cookbooks to see if they have it too :)