As some of you might know, my daughter got engaged in September and they hope to get married in May next year. Although we are not regular church attenders (we are CofE) we have been to our local church from time to time and my daughter went to junior church in the various places where we lived when she was growing up. So she would like to get married in church, but this is where the problem begins. Her fiance is divorced. He married young in a registry office and a couple years after the marriage his wife was unfaithful and went off with someone else. They have been divorced and separated for five years now and my daughter met her fiance a couple of years after the split, so she played no part in the separation.
You have probably guessed what is coming: our local parish church has refused to marry them because of my daughters fiance's divorce. It just seems so unfair and unjust as they were both innocent parties and will be penalised because of something out of their control. Of course my husband immediately got onto the internet and downloaded some info on some church guidelines. It said in some cases a church wedding can be granted. Has anyone got any advice or had any experience of this sort of thing. Would be really interested to hear anyones views. Thanks! :) busy_lizzie
when my parents got married (ok, mum and step dad, technically, but mum and DAD to me) they had the legal bit in the register office but afterwards had a blessing in the local church, they were both previously married. this was about 20 years ago though.
OH's sister married 4/5 years ago, to someone who had previously been twice married, and they were married at a venue of thier choice with a licence. not sure whether this was because they didn't want a church wedding or couldn't.
sorry, not much help....! hope it works out for your daughter.
sure someone will be along with the correct answer...!
It seems to be a very local decision. That is, your vicar say's 'Ya' or 'Nay'. If he can't be persuaded after your explanation....well, even vicars' have a boss!
Sorry you got bother with the CofE Vicar BL. I agree with what Ken has said its seems to be at the discretion of the local Vicar. Even Prince Charles wasnt allowed to marry in church was he? Am not up on CofElaws but I am sure our Church of Scotland Minister would marry your daughter. They dont have a Bishop to answer to.
I have some friends who were in a similar situation and the vicar would only bless the marriage, not perform the ceremony, and then only as long as before the service he was allowed to give a speech saying he didn't believe in it!! If it had been me I think I would have looked elsewhere.
Sorry BL this is no help to you, it is so unfair to your daughter and fiance. I hope you can get it sorted. Is it just the vicar or are all the churches in the area the same? It is so unfair when she has attended church etc there.
Busy-Lizzie, may i suggest you write to your church`s Bishop saying what you said to us. Failing that do try another church some vicars are more open minded than others. Failing that how about a marriage in Scotland in church, you could all have a nice long weekend there its a wonderful place.
I hope one of these suggestions helps you. ;D Mary.
Hi Busy Lizzie - sorry I haven't replied to your pm yet - pm not working at present (have emailed Dan).
Re the wedding, it's basically up to your local vicar but I'd agree with Rosebud - try writing to the Bishop or asking another church as it is definitely possible to be married in church after a divorce, in "exceptional circumstances" - and I think the circumstances you describe are exactly what this means.
The CofE official website says:
"The Church of England teaches that marriage is for life. It also recognizes that, sadly, some marriages do fail and, if this should happen, it seeks to be available for all involved. The Church accepts that, in exceptional circumstances, a divorced person may marry again in church during the lifetime of a former spouse.
Some ministers may be willing to conduct such a marriage in church and it is wise to make an appointment to speak to your parish priest before setting a date. The minister will want to talk to you frankly about the past, your hopes for the future and your understanding of marriage (a form and explanatory statement, Marriage in church after divorce, is available or can be ordered from Church House Bookshop, phone 020 7898 1300, www.chbookshop.co.uk). If it is not possible for your proposed marriage to take place in church, your priest may consider other alternatives with you, such as a Service of Prayer and Dedication after a civil ceremony."
Might also be worth getting the statement this mentions & taking it to your vicar?
Hope it works out.
Juliet
Oh dear, thats really sad, as you say they are both innocent. In our town there are four churches, at one they will allow divorced people to marry, I don't know why they do and the others presumably don't. If you do contact your Bishop I hope you have good luck, and they get the wedding they hope for. When you think it's a bit ironic that congregations have dwindled, yet they turn people away from what should be their happiest day.
This is two messages on the same day to different sites about the C of E and remarriage after divorce. I don't like their attitude at all; I don't like being publicly critical, and I don't normally comment on the foibles of other denominations, but it really is about time that they woke up officially to the fact that relationships can go wrong. If they preach that God gives sinners a new start, then they should be willing to do the same for the divorced.
You might well find that your local Methodist Church is more broadminded. I had a different problem; I married a practicing Muslim, and being bloodyminded, I wasn't having it anywhere other than my own church! In the end I got our minister to register it, which he did despite having written an extremely cheeky letter to me asking me not to go ahead with the wedding at all. I got another, more broadminded, minster to do it; we had the Koran read, gave comunion to Muslims, broke every rule in the book, and everyone enjoyed themselves. As I say, Methodists tend to be more broadminded, though you do find some individual ministers who aren't.
BL do let us know how you get on, all the best to you all, i hope it works out.
Thank you all very much for your useful comments, they have all been very helpful. You have given me quite a lot to think about. Will report back with any developments. love busy_lizzie :-*
Can't keep silent - I'm not passing judgemet - but you must think of what you are asking for.
To be a Christian you are saying that you have handed the control of your life over to Jesus because you believe that He is (note present tense) the son or God, died for your sins, rose from the dead (to affirm that your sins have been forgiven) and ascended to Heaven to sit at the right hand of God (the creator of everything - you, me, the world, the universe, everything) and intercedes for you - having taken your faults onto himself allowing God to forgive you - because you no longer have any sins that God can condemn you with.
He (God) has given everyone the opportunity to believe in Him, and through Jesus be forgiven, and have eternal life.
By wanting to have a Christian wedding service you are saying that you are a practicing Christian and believe in all that and have actively (willingly & knowingly) handed over the reigns of your life to Jesus. If you don't actively believe this and haven't actually done this then you are being hypocritical to yourself (mind you there is plenty of room for sinners and hypocrites in the church because they are the folk who Jesus came to save (those who are perfect and sinless do not need saving)) .... But YOU have to accept the free gift from God in order to take full advantage of it.
So as an outsider (of any organisation) why should you have the right to take advantage of the facilities - why do they mean so much to you and yet mean so little at the same time. You seem to want the frills/advantages but none of the responsibilities.
Again, I am not accusing (I'm hardly in any position to do so) - just pointing out how people like me (Christians) can view the demands of outsiders. Just imagine that the church was a secular "GOLF CLUB" and see if what you want still makes sense.
Robert,
A wedding isn't about having a fun time - it's about two people committing themselves to each other before their creator in front of a large(ish) number of people. The fun is incidental, a celebration that God has joined two people together as one flesh - never to be separated (except in death). The promises that we make to each other in such a service are binding - the fun is a bonus. What did communion mean to Muslims - in that act they are acknowledging the power of the resurrection of Christ as the Son of Man by accepting the body and blood of the risen man Jesus - and my understanding of their faith is that they don't accept Jesus as the Son of God let alone the Saviour - He was just a prophet in their eyes. What where they doing!
Thank you for your comments BW, - very interesting point of view. I understand what you are saying, that people shouldn't just view getting married in church as a nice photo opportunity and I think that is quite right. However if you have got religious beliefs and want to be married in the sight of God, there doesn't seem anything wrong with a desire to get married in his "House". I was baptised and confirmed as were my children but my not being a regular attender has more to do with the man made rules and attitudes of today's church than my interpretation of God.
If anything I would view myself as being like the first Christians who's beliefs centred round nature and being part of a whole, but that doesn't stop me believing in God nor Jesus. I am a thinking being and can disagree with quite a lot of aspects of Christianity without it taking away from my core beliefs. In my eyes God doesn't exclude anyone, surely that is against his teachings.
Sorry it is getting quite heavy, which was not my intention. I am sure you are not attacking me (as you don't even know me), but just raising a point of view. Our church is down by my street and I see all the weddings that occur there. It would be interesting to know how many of those couples were as devout as you suggest. My daughter is being refused a wedding service for no other reason but that her fiance is a divorced man. Even if he wasn't the innocent party surely the Christian Edict is to forgive and welcome back into the fold eg "the prodigal son". It doesn't make sense to me! ??? busy_lizzie
Bionic Wellies - I agree that a church wedding is not a "right" - but at the same time I don't think it's very loving for the church to turn away people who really want to be married there, unless it has a good reason to do so - and in this case it does seem that there's no good reason. I can understand the vicar imposing conditions on allowing a church wedding - eg asking the couple to attend church for x number of weeks beforehand, and/or asking them to attend marriage preparation classes - but I can't understand him turning people away altogether - surely instead he should view this as an opportunity? I know someone who was divorced and married his second wife in a church and as a result of being allowed to do so they became involved in the church and both became Christians - turning people away is unlikely to have this effect. And while wanting a church wedding service does imply agreement with what Christians believe about marriage - as you say, "two people committing themselves to each other before their creator", I think it's possible to agree with this without having made a committment as a Christian.
OK, Busy Lizzie, we must stop doing this! I was just previewing my message when you posted (again!).
As a practicing Catholic from a staunch Catholic family, I have a paternal Aunt who was ostracised by the whole family, as she was divorced and there were some who could not accept this. I didn't see her for 15 years, until my Grandmother died.
However, maybe my history is a little amiss here, didn't the Founder of the Church of England (Henry VIII) divorce a couple of his brides? I find it hard to believe that the CofE powers-that-be consider this unpalatable.
Incidentally, I married a non-catholic in my Parish Church (Roman Catholic) and this was not an issue. We both underwent instruction for preparation for Marriage, along with other couple, and the question of divorce or re-marriage didn't even come up!
Pope Jimbo the First
Quote from: Bionic Wellies on January 19, 2006, 15:44:06
Robert,
A wedding isn't about having a fun time - it's about two people committing themselves to each other before their creator in front of a large(ish) number of people. The fun is incidental, a celebration that God has joined two people together as one flesh - never to be separated (except in death). The promises that we make to each other in such a service are binding - the fun is a bonus. What did communion mean to Muslims - in that act they are acknowledging the power of the resurrection of Christ as the Son of Man by accepting the body and blood of the risen man Jesus - and my understanding of their faith is that they don't accept Jesus as the Son of God let alone the Saviour - He was just a prophet in their eyes. What where they doing!
Actually I agree with you, up to a point. Marriage is about two people making promises before God and the community, which in turn recognise their relationship. As long as both worship the same God, then I see no bar to interfaith marriages, and it's very clear that in the case of Islam and Christianity, we not only worship the same God, we believe very similar things about him. Muslims revere Jesus as a great prophet who was the bearer of the Gospel, which is regarded as true scripture, along with significant parts of the Old Testament. They do have major issues with the doctrine of the Trinity, and the belief that Jesus is Son of God, or divine, but this goes back to a specific, long-vanished, form of Christianity, which identified Mary with the Holy Spirit, so they may well have believed in God The Father, God the Mother, and God the Son, or something similar. In pre-Islamic Arabia, there was a belief that God had two wives and various offspring, so you can see that there would have been issues! There may even have been an attempt to get the early Muslim community to accept the idea of Allah having a wife. Some sections of the early church did regard Jesus as a prophet, it's a title used in the New Testament, and I certainly don't take offence. As far as I'm concerned, I think the differences between the two faiths are largely a matter of history and culture; one developed with the Romano-Greek world, the other within a very different Semitic culture. I don't see 'orthodox' Christian doctrine, most of which developed long after the New Testament was written, as having a great deal to do with anything like divine inspiration, but then I always was a heretic anyway.
Communion may not have meant anything to Muslims, but it does to the church. We wanted to make a statement to the effect that God accepts both Muslim and Christian, and here I think we succeded!
Got married in a shinto shrine. Didn't understand a bloody word of it. Got up when I should sit. Sat when I should have got up. Turned right when I should have turned left (a big no no). Only saving grace was when I had to speak in the local lingo up at the 'altar'. Little did anyone know that I had a phonetic version hidden in my kimono which I whipped out without anyone noticing. I was praised for my fluency, and without guilt I accepted everyone's praise without telling them I'd cheated!!! The three drinks of sake during the ceremony gave me the dutch courage!!!
My bro got married again in Scotland. Seems to be a bit more leeway up there. I think sometimes, Scotland is the Quebec of the UK!
good luck
What a fascinating wedding DG. Thanks for your good wishes. :) busy_lizzie
busy-lizzie I just hope the couple get married where they wish. Such a shame to put a shadow over so many people (family)., Good luck and very best wishes to you all.
Quote from: busy_lizzie on January 21, 2006, 17:11:21
What a fascinating wedding DG. Thanks for your good wishes. :) busy_lizzie
You're welcome busy_lizzie. And by the way, my wife arranged THE WHOLE THING. All I did was the speaking part I mention! I flew in, with a tux for the afters. Every blessed thing else was arranged. I must say it was "odd" to be stripped to my undies in front of my MIL and two old ladies who dressed me. Oh to have a photo of that. It reminded me of a film I saw when I was very very young. It was on about three years ago, but I missed it. Cat Balou, maybe that's it. But there was a gun slinger that was dressed by a couple of his buddies.He had a metal strap on nose. It was like that.
Tried to arrange an RC wedding here in my own church as FIL was due at a conference in London and came on over with MIL for five days. PP said okay to begin with but when contacted the Archbishop there was no go. We just had a party and introduced everyone...
Robert, well done you to marry a practicing Muslim. My OH is not that strongly religious at all at all, but occasionally cultural issues are tricky. I think if she fell under a bus, I'd marry a lapsed catlik like myself!!!
Busy_lizzie, if you don't have fun on your wedding day, you're in trouble!! Didn't read all the posts all the way down, but caught this mention.
bon chance, hope you have a satisfactory conclusion to your arrangements and it goes well....
Hi B L, any news for us yet on the wedding??.
Just wanted to update you. After another two refusals from vicars and an e-mail sent to the Bishop, my daughter and her fiance had an intervew with the Canon of a local church this morning and he said he would be pleased to marry them in his church, - no problem. My daughter said he was a lovely man and she is thrilled as we all are. A little persistance is a good thing, I think. :D busy_lizzie
I'm a elder in our local church (Presbyterian) and we allow divorced people to marry if they are the Innocent party, with the cofE its up to the local vicar
Hi Busy-Lizzie, i am so pleased for you i really am,pass my best wishes on to your Daughter and her fiance. All the best Love Rosebud. :) :) :) .
Busy Lizzie.Brilliant news glad all the efforts have paid off at last. Best wishes to the happy couple and the parents.
Lorna.
Hi Bizzie Lizzie, came to this thread very late, Im glad things seem to be working out.
My first marriage was in a registry office and ended in divorce due to ex's unreasonable behaviour. My second husband is Catholic and wanted a church wedding. The catholic church wouldn't marry us unless I had my first mariage annulled and I wouldn't do that as I had 2 children and felt it wrong to deny a marriage that had produced them.
Our local Cof E vicar was wonderful and very understanding and progressive (this was 10 yrs ago this month)and said that everyone made mistakes and he would announce the banns and see if anyone objected and they didn't. We had a lovely wedding and are fairly regular church goers.
It really depends onthe local vicar's personal thoughts and I am glad things seem to be sorted for you all now.Good Luck with everything
Petra :)
B-L, I've just read all of this thread for the first time, just now. It's my fave sort of tale - one with a happy ending ;D
Wish them both a great day and a long and happy life together :)
Regards, Lishka
Thank you for updating us, Busy Lizzie - I had been wondering. So glad to hear your daughter & her fiance have found someone to marry them in a local church - hope all goes well.
I wish them both the very best. Wiht wramest regrads, Dan :-)
a very interesting thread and glad it's working out at the end of the day but just to throw my tuppence worth into the fray.
my mum was a twice a day, six times on sundays going to church gal in her youth, but the church (cofe) refused to marry her and my dad due to him having been married previously to a woman that ran off with his best mate.
they got married in a registry office eventually, but i think, looking back, that was the beginning of the end for my mother, the first crack in her heart was made then.
i have no time for any insitution that can cause that much heartbreak.
i wish the happy couple the best of luck in their new lives. they will encounter enough problems along the way without a narrow minded vicar making it more difficult for them at the beginning.
With the ever ending fact that church congregations are deminishing it suprises me that the Vicar can take such high handed measures and thought, I think the church needs all the friends it can get.
Vony
Busy Lizzie, I was only thinking of you about this yesterday so am really pleased it has all worked out. I am sure being married by a vicar who starts off wanting to marry them will make the day so much more special too, I am really pleased for you all that it has worked out and hope the rest of the arrangements go more smoothly. :)
Will look forward to hearing all about it - how long do we have to wait, I love weddings!
Thank you everybody for your support and your good wishes. You have all been great during this. The wedding will be 11th May 2007, - it sounds like a long time away doesn't it, but when I look at the long list of arrangements to be made, that is when I start to panic. busy_lizzie
This is something I've noticed over the years; there are excellent vicars and ministers out there, but there are also the ones who seem to go into it out of a desire to be important and have a bit of petty status. They make life so difficult for eveyone around them, and I'm convinced they're one of the reasons why people drift away from church. I could really tell some tales, but perhaps I'd better not.
I am sure your are right Robert. We are only glad that we have come across a truly Christian man. busy_lizzie