Hi everyone,
I would appreciate your comments on supermarket organic produce.
What do you think about it?
Thanks
Cat
Where should I start I could really start rambling on this subject but I shall try to condense my thoughts - it may be grown organically but often contains many airmiles therefore not bril for the environment, over priced and far too clean looking to be believed !!!!!!!!!!!
The astronomical cost and all of the above plus one or two enforced lifestyle changes meant that I got myself a lottie, best move I ever made!!!!!!
I don't buy it - overpriced and agree with previous poster. Buy everything we don't grow from our brilliant local farm shop - not billed (or priced) as 'organic' but fresh, natural, tasty and grown in the area.
Far to expensive for me to consider, that is why I grow my own. Also, I always notice what a small selection there is, or at least it is like that in my part of Essex. I don't claim to be totally organic, but I do what I can. And if I can't grow it, or have run out, I try and buy from the local farms who sell their produce 'out front'. Like Cotswold Lass says, it may not be organic, but it is local and seasonal.
What a vexed subject. I would rather buy local produce - even if sprayed (& even 'organics' can have 'necessary' sprays ??) - than organic spring onions - or whatever - from Egypt.
Glad you didn't mention animals - where almost no 'free-range' or 'organic' labels assure humane treatment.
Quote from: tim on October 18, 2005, 19:32:37
Glad you didn't mention animals - where almost no 'free-range' or 'organic' labels assure humane treatment.
Tim please don't get me going on that subject :(
I think one of the reasons that organic food is so expensive is that organic farmers don't receive the subsidies that other farmers do. [someone will now say that's not the case].
As for organic produce being too clean, that is down to the supermarkets I feel who seem to think we wont want to buy some thing if it has a speck of dirt on it.
There was a very interesting 2 part programme a few months ago on channel 4 about the food we eat from supermarkets. the stipulations that the growers have to meet are crazy. I for one don't care if my cucumber is straight, french and runner beans a certain length, potatoes a certain size or my tomatoes and apples pretty. Surely taste is far more important.
Airmiles were also mentioned, and there was an example of tomatoes (I think) going all the way to poland and back again, to a supermarket not very far from where they were grown. It really does make you wonder what they are thinking of.
The programme also covered the appalling conditions a lot of animals and poultry are kept in, so that we the consumer can buy the end product cheaply. Too higher price to pay I think. :'(
As has already been said, that is why most of us on a4a grow our own, so we can eat vegetables and fruit that taste as they should.
Not wishing to tread on any toes, but I think the best way to get humanely-reared meat is to buy from a British organic farm, even if it means paying postage because you have to buy mail order. Organic rearing standards are higher than those of standard producers.
Supermarkets - their "organic" meat has not necessarily been raised to British organic standards which, as far as I'm aware, are the most exacting in terms of welfare in the world.
Veg. - much of it is simply not very good, and the selections available in my area are pretty small.
Supermarket Veg, organically reared and then packaged up to the nines!
I go to our local greengrocer if I need extra fruit and veg, and pick it off the shelves cling film/container free!! ;D ;D (plus you can give it a sniff and a squeeze to ensure ripeness, much more fun! :D)
Go to Farmers' Markets! Heaps better than the supermarkets - and thanks to contacts made there, we now get meat supplies direct from a couple of farms that are within 5 miles. We have a local duck farm (which does free range Aylesbury ducks all year, plus Christmas white and bronze turkeys and geese) and a pig farm (which will do any kind of joint if you phone and ask). Beef comes from the markets as does any other meat Sir takes fancy to (I'm not really a meat-eater, surprisingly enough!).
I am hoping desperately that the duck farm doesn't get this flu... they also rescue birds of prey and other wildlife.
moonbells
I just posted and it dissappeared. Think Moonbells one got there first - great minds eh ?
I don't buy organic from supermarkets as they reject the wrong shaped spuds, if that programme is to be believed, and that hikes the price up. I would rather pay the same money and keep a local green grocer or farm shop in buisness.
Hey Doris, does your local greengrocer like a free squeeze then or do you LOL ;) ;)
Our local Organic fruit and veg grower, during the year is busy 95% of the time selling to people as they dont want to go to the large supermarkets,
BACK BRITISH FARMERS,
catch you later
windy ;)
Packaging ? - yes, a real horror.
Veg shape? Bananas have to be curved exactly to fit the new plastic banana lunch boxes??
Subsidies? And someone in Denmark or Thailand will always undercut our farmers?
The air miles incurred by supermarket organic food are a major concern. The choice between aeroplane emissions and pesticide/hebicide residues is no choice at all environmentally speaking. They are both disastrous, not least for our children's future wellbeing.
On the animal-free point: this is another downside of most organic food which uses so much waste product from inhumane intensively farmed livestock. It's certainly not vegetarian!Â
(There are now 'Stock Free' organic standards formulated by the Vegan Organic Trust under the aegis of the Soil Association. You can read more here:
http://www.veganorganic.net/standards.htm (http://www.veganorganic.net/standards.htm))
Even buying from British farmers or Farmers' Markets is no guarantee of environmentally-sound food production. At present, I think growing your own food in your own allotment is the only way to satisfy your own standards of what qualifies as safe, sound food.
An interesting thread, especially given my trip to a supermarket last nigh to get some fresh tomatoes. Mine at home are finished and some ferline outside at the allotment are not quite ripe yet.
I decided to look at the organic display and noticed a mixed pack of varieties including yellow pear, green stripped, a black sort, tiggerella, a couple of yellow types etc for about 1.90. I grabbed them thinking they would be better than the normal stuff.
Got them home to have with the salad from the allotment and shared them between ourselves thinking it would be an interesting taste test. I can honestly say that they tasted much the same as each other with the only exception being the green stripped which was foul and we both spat it out. None of them were a patch on home grown.
The only good part was the packaging, which according to the label can be composted. It looked and felt like clear plastic but was produced from some plant material.
On the issue of UK organic vs Other Organic, we in the UK generally do have stricter rules compared to the rest of the world. As has been mentioned, the environmental impact of transporting organic French beans from Kenya by plane must not be ignored. I will buy local in season veg rather than contribute to those sort of food miles. For livestock organic standards are extremely high and very well regulated, levels of animal welfare in the UK are generally far higher here than any other country. I have worked in agriculture in the far east, Africa and America, no one matches how we handle animals.
On the issue of subsidies, all basic agricultural subsidies are open to both organic and non organic producers. The rules are changing at the moment and we are moving to a scheme called the “Single Area Paymentâ€. This ignores what the farmer grows on the land but pays him/her to mamange the land effectively. They can attract more support if they choose to partake in the Countryside Stewardship Scheme of which there are various levels. This encourages reduced intensity of production and creation of wildlife friendly habitats.
In addition farmers wishing to switch to organic from conventional methods can get support from both the government and organic associations as the switch does take a number of years.
I firmly believe that the blame for the current mess with our food lies mainly with the supermarkets, but the consumer has to share that blame. The average consumer wants cheap food, they don’t care where it comes from or how it is produced. Their perception of seasonality has been removed by the supermarkets.
Farmers have had to react to this as margins have been squeezed and squeezed until they are almost unsustainable. Supermarket buying power is far stronger than many realise. I shall give you an example from when we produced leeks and parsnips for Tesco and Asda a number of years ago, thankfully we are now well out of that business.
In the spring the buyers approach us and ask if we will be will to grow leeks. We say yes and plan 100 acres to be harvested from October through to March. Supermarkets say great and walk away. We ask for a contract and price guide, they say that they will issue a contract in September, price non negotiable.
So we have to fund the crop with no certain market and no idea of selling price.
September arrives and the buyers look at the crop in the ground and issue a contract, phew, sigh of relief, we have a market.
Contract is a rolling contract and valid for only a month at a time, notice period for cancellation on their side is a day. Not so great but they all issue contracts like this.
Harvest starts and we dispatch a load of leeks in bulk cages to the packing house. A load is normally 8 cages, each cage is 4 foot by 4 foot by 4 foot. As we harvest we grade in the field to the agreed standards. On arrival at the packing house the buyers inspect one cage, it does not reach their standards the whole load is rejected.
We get a phone call informing us and they ask want we want to do with the leeks. There is no other open market, Covent Market may take some but prices will be rock bottom and wont cover the transport cost. The buyer will sometimes make an offer for them for their “value†range which we normally accept otherwise we are hit transport costs back to the farm for disposal.
End result is little or no margin for us and supermarkets getting the best end of the deal. Farmers do not have the muscle, singularly or collectively, to fight this approach. Farmers go out of business or cut corners, supermarkets profits get larger and push small retailers out of business.
Sorry, bit of a rant.
Jerry
I hd to buy onions last week as I was too ill to get to the lotty where mine are in the shed. I resented that even though I bought the minimum I could get away with. I too hate the supermarket biggies. I refuse to shop at Asda at Bexleyheath as their shop is full of crap, hot donuts (yeuk), stinky roast chicken and their veg is the worst arranged area I have ever seen. I think they catergorise it by the round stuff in one area, and yellow in another. Don't ever go there. Sorry Asda, that's the way it is.
I think use of the phrase 'cheap food' should carry a fixed penalty!
All it means is that its true cost has been shouldered by someone else: the taxpayer in subsidy to the farmer, the ratepayer who has to fund waste disposal, the health service trying to cope with all the casualties of a high fat diet...
And always, ALWAYS our environment which always carries the the can for cheap food. Even if it was really cheap economically and socially, cheap food would still be stupid.
On the rubbish daytime telly I saw that some people eat ready meals (ping dinners) 4 times a week. I aksed OH if he thought we were disfunctional as we have real food, admittedly we have had omlette and sausage and mash as I have been ill, and he said he thought we were the norm. It would appear not according to what I saw. Scarey eh ?
Quote from: BAGGY on October 19, 2005, 13:10:18
I hd to buy onions last week as I was too ill to get to the lotty where mine are in the shed. I resented that even though I bought the minimum I could get away with. I too hate the supermarket biggies. I refuse to shop at Asda at Bexleyheath as their shop is full of crap, hot donuts (yeuk), stinky roast chicken and their veg is the worst arranged area I have ever seen. I think they catergorise it by the round stuff in one area, and yellow in another. Don't ever go there. Sorry Asda, that's the way it is.
I won't shop in Asda these days either from what I've read about their environmental policy and worker rights.
Mind you I suspect none of the large supermarkets have many principles. I think Waitrose does* (whole ethos of the John Lewis Partnership) but not really any of the others.
moonbells
*Waitrose have stopped selling my favourite fish. I asked why, and they said it was because they'd discovered that farming it was destroying habitat in New Zealand. So they won't import it any more. They also won't sell battery eggs. Good for Waitrose.
Like cotswold lass we're lucky enough to have a fantastic farm shop nearby so we get all our fruit & veg from there - on monday i got a huge crown prince squash for £1.50 and it'll feed us for at least a week! they are cheaper than supermarket & as much produce as possible is local. They also do a huge range of bedding plants in summer for not-much-cash ;D
baggy - nothing wrong with a good omelette :D
i agree with all the sentiments about supermarkets. i have not been very interested in going into big supermarkets this year - agree with moonbells that waitrose seems a shot above the rest but even there i wont buy butternut squash from south africa in the height of summer. it's simply not the time for them! supermarkets have a lot to asnwer for in the 'education' of people as to what is seasonal, and how it grows - a bit of earth on the veg wont kill anyone.
M&S food adverts get me going: "this is not just smoked salmon, this is hand-caught, oak smoked, free range scottish salmon" GIVE ME A BREAK! it's still packaged to the nines and i would rather buy smoked fish at the local mongers (lucky to those who have one nearby) who put the fish in waxed paper. grrrr!
i love our local turkish supermarket though - it's a small size shop (big cornershop size) - they have lots of fruit and veg out front which you can smell and fondle (in moderation, of course!) and their furthest travelled veg (after bananas) is dates and pomegranate etc from the med. most is british produce - not sure how local but none is prepacked. i still dont buy out of season, but he doesnt stock out of season stuff, either. plus there is the choice of 50 different types of olive oil, 100 different types of olive, superb (halal) meat and a huge range of sweets, fresh bread, jams etc etc all you need from a supermarket. this is the kind of choice the big supermarket chains pretend they have on the shelf, but dont.
and the best thing: while lamb costs around £12/kg in the supermarkets at the moment, their meat is half that price. and tender melt on the tongue stuff, too!
*sticking up a few fingers to supermarkets*
It's not just organic veg that travels a long way which are in season here - french beans, mangetout, the prepared veg!!!
I tell other half off for buying veg that is seasonal here, that is sourced from far away. I even tut slightly at seasonal stuff from Holland and Spain...
I work in the community and visit many different homes and can therefore observe many different ways of life, for instance I was with a patient this morning who buys chocolate frostie cereal bars for her daughters morning break because,
"its healthier than her going to the tuck shop", on the kitchen work top were the remains of last nights chinese takeaway
"sorry about the mess" she said "I haven't had time to tidy up yet, we save the leftovers for tonights meal cos on Tuesdays and Thursdays you can buy 4 main meals for a fiver so that means we can eat for four days on a tenner"
This example is not unique, and I believe very strongly that most of the conditions I treat could be cured by sensible eating and exercise, but generally most patients are happy to blame any thing else except their way of life.
Sorry to generalise but just got in from a particularly rough day at work and using this board as a sounding block!!
Wardy - I'm nosey too and always looking at others shopping baskets, junk always outweighs the fresh fruit and veg.
QuoteI believe very strongly that most of the conditions I treat could be cured by sensible eating and exercise, but generally most patients are happy to blame any thing else except their way of life.
I'm sure this is right. Trouble is, both the government and the retail industry require unquestioning dullards to prop them up...
(BTW I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else...I spent a large proportion of my life thinking supermarkets sold real fruit and vegetables!! So embarassing ::))
That's because the art of cooking has been lost. I don't mean following recipes from the telly (although that is a trail for some), I mean looking at what is seaonal (if such a thing now exists in the shops) and chucking it together with what's in the fridge to create a meal. I am not that old but my grandma was one of 12 . She was a single mum with 8 kids so would cook fantastic meals with little or nothing making the best of what was cheap and nutritious. I think that rubbed off on mum and in turn, me. I wouldn't dream of 'pinging' lasagne for 2 when I can make twice as much for the same price. Maybe I'm just tight ;D
Sorry guys, I'm afraid we do most of our shopping in supermarkets - not well enough to grow my own & there isn't much in the way of farm shops around here - there are a couple but they're very tiny & never have anything we want to buy :(. We often shop in farm shops when we're on holiday, though, & really wish we had a good one here.
We do buy as much organic stuff as we can afford though (mostly eggs, milk, yoghurts, fish, & carrots, which are some of the things worst effected by chemicals). And we don't buy prepackaged fruit & veg if we can possibly help it (I like a good squeeze too ;)) - most supermarkets do sell loose stuff though. We also have a fab shop which sells lots of organic & fair trade goods - mostly dried fruit, nuts, cereals etc - they buy in enormous bulk & pack their own so you just pay for the goods, not for the packaging (anyone else in Cambridge or Northampton, it's http://www.dailybread.co.uk/).
I can't eat ready meals (too many allergies) but R gets a few - it's quite difficult to get organic ones for one person though (also difficult to get organic joints of meat for one person so he's stuck either way). Duchy originals have started to do organic ready meals which are pretty good & other than that, he's found that Waitrose own brand ones, & Tescos "Finest" range are the best. Most of the others seem to be salty mush.
I'd recommend joining the Soil Association (http://www.soilassociation.org/) to anyone who cares about organic &/or local food - they are great campaigners for both of these. They do a supermarket survey every year to find out which ones are the best for stocking local organic produce - Waitrose always seems to come out on top, though M&S and Sainsbury's do quite well. Tesco, Co-op, & Asda are improving :); Somerfield & Morissons aren't :(.
I saw on Beeb news this morning that the Cornwall section of the WI is calling for a boycott of supermarkets in a bid to save the high street shops and local producers. they are calling for the WI to put this move on the agenda for discussion and voting at their AGM. Not qute as sexy as Calendar Girls but an interesting development.
One emailer said that with supermarket loaves at 10p and bread shop loaves at 75p there was no wonder peolple use supermarkets. Here in Belgium, the minimum price of a loaf is fixed and shops are not allowed to sell at less than cost price. I have 5 different supermarkets within a 10km radius. There are 2 baker/patisseries in the village, one in the next and untold numbers in the small town 4 kms away. The local fishmonger has retired and not been replaced though.
Quote from: wardy on October 19, 2005, 17:48:19
the poor are eating ready meals from Farmfoods and the more affluent, young professionals seem to be getting the lotties to grow their own organic stuff.Â
Farmfoods - if ever a shop was misnamed! Got a flyer from them the other day, couldn't believe the utter crap they sell >:( :o No fresh produce at all, everything pre-packaged and in some cases pre-eaten by the looks of it! I think what you say is true, it does seem to be the young professionals who are driving the whole organic/grow-your-own thing.
Cheers,
Rob ;)
Quote from: Doris_Pinks on October 19, 2005, 10:06:22
Supermarket Veg, organically reared and then packaged up to the nines!
I go to our local greengrocer if I need extra fruit and veg, and pick it off the shelves cling film/container free!! ;D ;D (plus you can give it a sniff and a squeeze to ensure ripeness, much more fun! :D)
Here, here!
It's just over-packaged so they can tell the difference. How about over-packaging the regular produce, thus pushing that price up, lowering the organic produce price and hopefully evening the 2 out? Before you say it - naive, I know.
and why is it that supermarkets can't let us use paper bags to package the 'loose' produce?
They manage it for the mushrooms.
I've even had to stop check out staff putting a head of brocolli in a small plastic bag because I didn't when I picked it up!
Yes Baggy, that is the way I like to cook - what can I make using the available ingredients ... not up to Ready Steady Cook standard, but I consider it an interesting challenge sometimes. And my efforts are 'mostly' appreciated ... ( the celeriac sauce, and the broad bean soup were not really appreciated ...).
Carrots and pumpkins are current challenges ...
And my stuff really is natural, with no packaging ...
Derekthefox :D
QuoteI've even had to stop check out staff putting a head of brocolli in a small plastic bag because I didn't when I picked it up!
...and they call it broccoli when it's really calabrese! >:( :)
QuoteAnd my stuff really is natural, with no packaging ...
...and it hasn't burnt a lot of fossil fuel to get it to your table. Which is still a problem with the local greengrocers or farmers market.
If they didn't know better, we might be onto something really big with this allotment lark.... 8)
Quote from: terrace max on October 20, 2005, 11:01:12
QuoteI've even had to stop check out staff putting a head of brocolli in a small plastic bag because I didn't when I picked it up!
...and they call it broccoli when it's really calabrese! >:( :)
I was going to say that
Can't really blame the staff when their bosses and even the whole company don't know these things
How can you sell something when you don't know what it's called?
"Fresh thingies 50p a kilo. Don't forget your wosnames"...
...maybe the supermarket bosses thought calabrese was too hard for us simpletons to pronounce?? Although I seem to remember my mum bringing some home from the supermarket for the first time (in the seventies) and she called it calabrese...
Don't worry, all these vegetables will be 'discovered' by some television chef, and then they will set a new culinary fashion ..., whereas we 'normal' people will be rolling in our compost heaps with laughter ;D
Derekthefox :D
Quote from: wardy on October 20, 2005, 15:03:02
Is it the case, or am I mistaken, that supermarkets don't sell celeriac as it's tood fiddly to be processed before sale ? I have checked various places and never seen it, not in the local greengrocers either
Can get it in our local Tesco's but nobody ever seems to buy it so no doubt it'll vanish soon due to lack of demand.
Cheers,
Rob ;)
You can sometimes get it in Morrisons but it is shhrink wrapped in plastic. Is that in case the icky mud gets on you fingers ? I wouldn't mind but they probably don't grow it in real mud anyway. On a plus point I (sorry had to) bought spud from them today. They do 10kg selected seconds pack for 2 quid ish. Packed in brown paper sack. Only me that bought them and they are fine even if they are not symetrical and egg shaped. And uk grown. Not bad I thought. Didn't feel too guilted up.